Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

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vinceschubert
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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:48 pm

Good morning Bennett,
And the Truth remains the Truth...known, unknown, unknowable, whatever...but still there...still here. Where could it go?
When you say "where could it go". Is it an IT? Does it have substance?
how can one thought be older or appear before another...or maybe that is what you are saying......its all thought generated.
Look in your memory of experience now and examine the impression that you did something before reading this. How does that impression present?
As if that is any more real than the thought.
Is it a thought that is saying this? What is "real"?
Perhaps you see something I dont.
i (imagine that) i do.
I feel nowhere near truly ready to answer such questions to demonstrate my gate-proximity.
Ok, i'm in no hurry. Are you?
Most of my experience remains solidly of the individual in a separate world type.
Of course. What were you expecting? Are you about to transcend being human?
Perhaps momentary fleeting insights or glimpse into "no-self'...but it doesnt last. It is not abiding.
Again, of course. You would most likely meet with a fatal happening if you lacked the sense of self when crossing the road. It is a useful tool.
We are not looking for some transcendent bliss state. If the idea of a self is examined and seen to be an illusion clearly, then that is sufficient for this investigation. In fact, if this examination happens when unpleasant emotions arise or if pleasant emotions stimulate an ego response, then that is enough.
The conditioning here is so tenacious as to feel impervious to what inquiry might reveal.
..again, what are your expectations?
when I feel so lost in the world of illusions of separation.
Is this feeling one of despair? If so, expectations...
And then I realize just how completely full of bull-shit I am
Excellent noticing. Ha, aren't we all. Even those awake, although i imagine that they recognize that they are. At least i do.
How could I possibly be the source of that?
It's the imaginings (here) that spring from your use of words.

with love & compassion

vince

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:48 pm

Good morning Bennett,
And the Truth remains the Truth...known, unknown, unknowable, whatever...but still there...still here. Where could it go?
When you say "where could it go". Is it an IT? Does it have substance?
how can one thought be older or appear before another...or maybe that is what you are saying......its all thought generated.
Look in your memory of experience now and examine the impression that you did something before reading this. How does that impression present?
As if that is any more real than the thought.
Is it a thought that is saying this? What is "real"?
Perhaps you see something I dont.
i (imagine that) i do.
I feel nowhere near truly ready to answer such questions to demonstrate my gate-proximity.
Ok, i'm in no hurry. Are you?
Most of my experience remains solidly of the individual in a separate world type.
Of course. What were you expecting? Are you about to transcend being human?
Perhaps momentary fleeting insights or glimpse into "no-self'...but it doesnt last. It is not abiding.
Again, of course. You would most likely meet with a fatal happening if you lacked the sense of self when crossing the road. It is a useful tool.
We are not looking for some transcendent bliss state. If the idea of a self is examined and seen to be an illusion clearly, then that is sufficient for this investigation. In fact, if this examination happens when unpleasant emotions arise or if pleasant emotions stimulate an ego response, then that is enough.
The conditioning here is so tenacious as to feel impervious to what inquiry might reveal.
..again, what are your expectations?
when I feel so lost in the world of illusions of separation.
Is this feeling one of despair? If so, expectations...
And then I realize just how completely full of bull-shit I am
Excellent noticing. Ha, aren't we all. Even those awake, although i imagine that they recognize that they are. At least i do.
How could I possibly be the source of that?
It's the imaginings (here) that spring from your use of words.

with love & compassion

vince

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby CapnBoomer » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:07 pm

Hello Vince
When you say "where could it go". Is it an IT? Does it have substance?
Well of course not! It is that to which and in which all substance appears to appear. or something like that.
Look in your memory of experience now and examine the impression that you did something before reading this. How does that impression present?
As a thought. Everything exists now, even impressions that I did something before. Before what? Now is even a thought. There is just this.
Is it a thought that is saying this? What is "real"?
Anything that is said is thought...a bit of a trap. No way to talk about this and noway to say what is real. But some things are less false. "There is no "I" " is a thought...both real and unreal. In the same way Santa is both real and unreal at the same time But it points to something less unreal that the thought ..."I am a person with a body living in a world with other separate bodies and separate things."
What were you expecting? Are you about to transcend being human?
To unleash Liberation. To look and see no "I". The I persists in my experience full force. Except for very brief "moments"
Is this feeling one of despair?
Yup, the "real" thing. Certainly not one of liberation or, as said in one of the Liberation Unleashed Quotes..... not "liberated from the painful story of "I"...happiness that is already there." What happiness? Where? Not my overall lived experience. So, yes there are expectations. I see that. But just what is advertised. Liberation...no "I"....the happiness that is already here...to see beyond "the minds great trick".
It's the imaginings (here) that spring from your use of words.
If I may quote one of our awaken brothers
"Why call me good, only ? No one is Good except God (Source, Truth, All That Is etc) alone"
Luke 18:19

Thanks for the questions and the Faith

Bennett
"The Dude Abides" The Big Lebowski

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:57 pm

'evening Capt'n,
It is that to which and in which all substance appears to appear.
Good story..
How does that impression present?
As a thought.
..and is that thought useful?
Before what? Now is even a thought. There is just this.
Yes, but there is more than thought, isn't there?
You know the old chicken and egg quandary. So what comes first the thought or experience of that thought, or the thought about the experience of that thought? Oh wait, there is no first, or is there?
But some things are less false.
How so?
What is left after the false is dismantled?
Is there a remainder called truth when the not true is (something)
"I am a person with a body living in a world with other separate bodies and separate things."
Ah, a useful concept.
To look and see no "I".
..but there is an I.
It is a story, developed since you responded to anything. It is a whole book by now, with many chapters, each devoted to different characteristics and remembered history. We are just looking to write another chapter. One that is more adaptive.
A Krishnamurti quote that has a ring to it for me: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick
society."
But just what is advertised.
i don't endorse advertising. i don't promise you anything.
All i can say is that i spent 43 years as an obsessive seeker. Some tortured years, and now with an acceptance of what life offers, i can't remember the last time i felt emotional pain that lasted more than seconds or minutes. There's occasional, momentary bliss, but overall life is quite ordinary. (at least on the outside)
Thanks for the questions and the Faith
You're welcome.

with love

vince

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby CapnBoomer » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:58 pm

Hey Vince

As I read thru these posts and watch my lived experience it is a painful observation that I am (hopelessly) lost in thought, concepts and beliefs. Perhaps for the duration. And maybe that's ok. I can stop trying to see or be beyond them. It is what it is...as they say. Any answer or query I come up with will just be more of the same bullshit. Its all jargon, theory, words...one big story. Round and round we go.....merrily merrily ,life is but a dream. Just looking for the merrily bit I guess. So elusive. Unless..."I" can some how emerge happy, or at least indifferent, to whatever appears on this screen of the consciousness (or contentiousness) of the one called Bennett.... to throw in the towel of anything being any different than the way it is...or at least the way it appears. Stop trying to escape the prison...even if the door is wide open.

Dont know what these means for this LU inquiry. If IT is already here, I can ,(and "should") stop looking. And I dont know if I can even do that. So far apparently I cant.


Cheers

Bennett
"The Dude Abides" The Big Lebowski

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:51 pm

Good evening Bennett,
I am (hopelessly) lost in thought, concepts and beliefs.
Is this always the case, or are there moments when you recognize that you were lost in them?
I can stop trying to see or be beyond them.
Is there anything beyond them?
Are they what make up your lived experiencing?
Its all jargon, theory, words...one big story.
..and the experiencing of responding to that. Is that accurate?
Just looking for the merrily bit I guess.
Ah, mabye "merrily" only happens when you stop demanding it happen?
Unless..."I" can some how emerge happy,
That's impossible. It's future. These things can only happen NOW.
Stop trying to escape the prison...even if the door is wide open.
When the door is open (& it is) it's not a prison, and nothing to escape. In fact if you stop imagine that you need to escape and look around, it might just turn out to be a nice place to have a rest before venturing somewhere else.
anything being any different than the way it is...
Frequently those who wake up say that nothing has changed, but everything is different. What do you think that they mean?
If IT is already here, I can ,(and "should") stop looking. And I dont know if I can even do that. So far apparently I cant.
Excellent. You grok the illusion of control by the sound of it. Do you?

with love

vince

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby CapnBoomer » Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:04 pm

Hey Vince,
Is this always the case, or are there moments when you recognize that you were lost in them?
Lost is lost. If I recognize that I am lost in thought, and I is just another thought is there recognition there or just more lost thought?  That's what it seems like from here. And yet in a bizarre unexplaineable way there is still a strong sense of a me here and a world there that feels very real, solid,and stable...even with all this questioning it remains,unmoved and unconvinced of its non existence.
Good story..
Thought you'd like that one.  Its quite popular these days.  All the rage. Like the earth being round...or flat....or here at all.  They are all nice stories but......
..and is that thought useful?
If thought by its very nature takes us away from truth is any of it useful?  I suppose it could be in a relative sense.
Is there anything beyond them?/quote]
What is beyond the illusion? Good question. Perhaps the illusion is made up of the very stuff that is trying to see beyond them.
Are they what make up your lived experiencing?
Yup, sure seems like my thoughts, concepts and beliefs make up my lived experience. Not a pleasant one, which is the main motivation for questioning them...that and some deep inextinguishable fire that wants to "know the Truth"
..and the experiencing of responding to that. Is that accurate?
Yes, I suppose it is...all part of the same story, even the experience of responding to all that.
Ah, mabye "merrily" only happens when you stop demanding it happen?
One of those conundrums ...to find it, stop looking for it. Then what are we doing here? What am I doing here? What is humanity doing and always done but look for the end of suffering in what ever local terms those are defined as. Even that fire within I mentioned earlier is a form of suffering...and , ironically,( sadistically ?) humorously (at least from a cosmic perspective)...salvation
In fact if you stop imagine that you need to escape and look around, it might just turn out to be a nice place to have a rest before venturing somewhere else.
Working on that. But would that as motivation fall into the "expectations" category?
Frequently those who wake up say that nothing has changed, but everything is different. What do you think that they mean?
That there is nothing that needs to, or for that matter, could, change. Change involves time and stuff...both of which get back to the thought quagmire. That and a shift in perspective somewhat like suddenly realizing your in a movie theater watching a movie and not being the movie....and so just being able to sit back and enjoy the show...which you helped write and produce and are staring in.
Excellent. You grok the illusion of control by the sound of it. Do you?
If I truly did, wouldnt I give up trying to control or influence any situation? Havent given that up yet but maybe thats just what characters in this production do...pretend like the toy steering wheel is actually connected to the wheels on the road. Its ridiculous. And yet like a bad habit or addiction I dont seem to be able to stop.

Thanks for your time and interest Vince

Bennett
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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:03 am

'morning Bennett, wow, another heavy post. This bipolar type swinging from high to low is brain-controlled hormone driven.
Everything is affected, even the words that you use. There are many hormones and some affect the production and distribution of other hormones. It is really complex and modern medicine is still 'in the dark' about much of this stuff.
Nevertheless, mood stabilization can be achieved in the short term with a mindfulness exercise, and longer term meditation has been shown to benefit greatly.
In a way, you could describe what i do here as mindfulness. A narrowing of focus to achieve in the longer term a widening of perspective. This leads to wisdom imho.
Lost is lost. If I recognize that I am lost in thought, and I is just another thought is there recognition there or just more lost thought?
This question could be taken in a few ways.
The first is to take it literally, which would lead us into a philosophical discussion.
The second way is to recognize that it is a statement of despair. A reflection of your mood of hopelessness.
The third way is to take it as a gateway back to what really matters here, and this is what i intend.
A lot of what i say could be taken as a philosophical rant, but it is always (i hope) relatable to experience.
Even though recognition may be accompanied by thoughts that verbalize a realization, there is also a physical response to it. An AHA! experience, sometimes subtle, and sometimes world changing, and everything in between.
When i say to celebrate the recognition, there are background stories about this being a good thing. Stories about changing brain function, about depleting old habits (addictions to certain responses) Stories about future well-being.
It is the total of the experience elicited (that we label recognition) that we look to to change the brain habits.
In your case we hope to stimulate a release of Seretonin in the short term, and in the long term make new synaptic connections, resulting in more adaptive neuronal pathways.
there is still a strong sense of a me here and a world there that feels very real,
It may take many years for this sense ofa me to weaken. It is a useful thing as it makes communication possible. It keeps you safe as you cross the road. etc.
Just as the world appears real, and others need to be related to as if they were separate. It's only when you consider these things that you are reminded that they are illusions. That something else is what is actual. What that something else is, is a mystery. We can only have stories about that, which we recognize as actually unimportant. We don't need the how and why in order to have a pleasant life.
even with all this questioning it remains,unmoved and unconvinced of its non existence.
What does it matter? Do you need to know how your inner organs work, or do you simply trust that they will?
If thought by its very nature takes us away from truth is any of it useful?
i have no idea what this thing you call truth is. ..and again, if it does exist, who cares? (not me)
Yup, sure seems like my thoughts, concepts and beliefs make up my lived experience. Not a pleasant one, which is the main motivation for questioning them...that and some deep inextinguishable fire that wants to "know the Truth"
Knowing the truth, is as useful as knowing how your television works. Entertainment at best. What will change your experience is changing your stories.
Any idea how we can do that?
to find it, stop looking for it.
It appears paradoxical. Stop looking for it, doesn't mean give up.
It means that it won't happen just because you are looking for it.
The intense desire to attain it is (imho) very important. i obsessed for 43 years before it happened. It's a stand out in the many i have guided 'successfully'. The real value in this is the persistence to keep you going when despair hits. (and it often does)
But would that as motivation fall into the "expectations" category?
Ha yes. expectations happen. Recognizing expectations as stories that might or might not be accurate is the way to relate to them. ..again though, who has control of thoughts?
If they arise we would hope that the recognition stories arise too.
.and so just being able to sit back and enjoy the show...which you helped write and produce and are staring in.
Go to the front of the class. Very good. (grin)
If I truly did, wouldnt I give up trying to control or influence any situation?
This too takes time & practice. We will continue to behave AS IF we have control, as this too is useful for negotiating daily life. The effort that this illusion produces if it is believed, is one of the reasons for the production of cortisol (the stress hormone). After ten years of practice, if i hit a shitty golf shot, I'm like "that's unfortunate". If i do it twice in a row, I'm like "hmm, somethings not working, accept it and move on." When it happens three times in a row, anger often burst through and i want to punish the ground with my club, but within seconds i am laughing at the intensity of my response. i wonder how long before no anger or frustration happens.
Thanks for your time and interest Vince
Youre very welcome. Thank you for the value that you are for me.

with love & compassion

vince

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby CapnBoomer » Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:26 am

Ah Hell, Vince....sorry for all the heaviness.
wow, another heavy post.
Yup, I was in quite a funk. It tends to color everything and its all I see. I sure do go up and down, dont I . I have tended to be a very passionate emotional and intense person ...so far. Every storm that passes, however, leaves a greater calm and clarity in its wake so there are moments during them that I can appreciate them and wonder what is being ripped open this time. Every Hurricane rearranges the landscape tearing out old structures and revealing new possibilities. They are nothing what they were even a few years ago. They only last days and not months. So I dont get down on myself so much for having them. The meditation and mindfulness exercise I do definitely seem to be helping. Ask my wife.
This bipolar type swinging from high to low is brain-controlled hormone driven.
I find myself wondering which is cause and which effect. Certainly hormones are present but are they cause or effect?
" In the beginning was the word and the word became flesh." Its ok what ever it is and I dont spend to much time on trying to figure it out...just leave it in "??? Box"
The second way is to recognize that it is a statement of despair. A reflection of your mood of hopelessness.
The third way is to take it as a gateway back to what really matters here, and this is what i intend.
The 2nd one for sure and I can see how the 3rd is an open door....I appreciate you pointing it out to me.
In your case we hope to stimulate a release of Seretonin in the short term, and in the long term make new synaptic connections, resulting in more adaptive neuronal pathways.
This resonates and I dig the metaphors that arise from such an explanation for what is happening. Its got great wonderful jargon and is all scientific-y...or...you cant put new wine into old wineskins...or the old synaptic connections will reroute to original neuronal pathways. ( I know, its a stretch!)
We don't need the how and why in order to have a pleasant life.
Yes, and this is beginning to dawn on me...and is of great relief. As I once heard someone say...you are not here to understand your life but to simply experience it.
And if one adds to that that Life is self-tending and no input from a "me" is required...or even possible...it makes it much easier to follow that idea.
It appears paradoxical. Stop looking for it, doesn't mean give up.
Thanks for the reminder and the explanation for how this tends to go. Sometimes I wish that this desire in me would just go away but it hasnt yet
But would that as motivation fall into the "expectations" category?
Ha yes. expectations happen. Recognizing expectations as stories that might or might not be accurate is the way to relate to them. ..again though, who has control of thoughts?
If they arise we would hope that the recognition stories arise too.
Oh! I hadnt seen it like this but of course....another set of stories arising to be noticed....thats all. Not "my" expectations, just expectations....arising from thoughts
This too takes time & practice.
Impatience I have worked into a fine art. Not one that is serving very well. But its comforting to know that this just takes some time to observe and undo. The hurricane, even after it leaves the warm waters that spawned and fed it, takes awhile to spin down. I can be a little less harsh with myself for not "getting it" yet.

Thanks for talking me out of my tree

Bennett
"The Dude Abides" The Big Lebowski

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:07 pm

'morning Dude,
Ah Hell, Vince....sorry for all the heaviness.
Hey, no need for sorry.
The short lived downer here quickly turned into appreciation for the honesty and the opportunity to investigate.
Yup, I was in quite a funk. It tends to color everything and its all I see. I sure do go up and down, dont I . I have tended to be a very passionate emotional and intense person ...so far.
i can relate to that. I'm a kind of all-in person too. i use to be frustrated and angry at least a couple of times a day before. When it happened, it'd be hours or even days before it dissipated. Now, it's maybe twice a week and seconds or minutes before feeling good again.
..but, maybe paradoxically, it happens quicker and is more intense than before. Story here is that the social filters associated with the story of self are weaker.
Every storm that passes, however, leaves a greater calm and clarity in its wake so there are moments during them that I can appreciate them and wonder what is being ripped open this time. Every Hurricane rearranges the landscape tearing out old structures and revealing new possibilities. They are nothing what they were even a few years ago. They only last days and not months. So I dont get down on myself so much for having them. The meditation and mindfulness exercise I do definitely seem to be helping. Ask my wife.
Excellent. Rewiring is happening.
i used to sit (meditate) regularly. Did lot's of Vipassana. Now it's very occasionally. That feeling that you get when you meditate (or think about meditating) seems to be present often during each day.
I find myself wondering which is cause and which effect. Certainly hormones are present but are they cause or effect?
It doesn't matter. It's just a story to illustrate the possibility (probability) of change.
.just leave it in "??? Box"
Great. ..but don't leave it as an unanswered puzzle. Appreciate the wonder-ful-ness of that mystery. Everything seems to emerge from it and return to it. (even though it's not an it)
The second way is to recognize that it is a statement of despair. A reflection of your mood of hopelessness.
The 2nd one for sure
Ha, yes, it was a statement of the obvious.
I can see how the 3rd is an open door..
Good stuff. You have to be, at least somewhat repaired to see that.
As I once heard someone say...you are not here to understand your life but to simply experience it.
Except for the implies 'purpose'/meaning in that, i love it. Hmm, and i don't know about the "simply"...
that Life is self-tending and no input from a "me" is required...or even possible...
Beautiful. Really good. Ha, i will use it.
Sometimes I wish that this desire in me would just go away but it hasnt yet
Good. It's probably the most appropriate condition required. ..but yes, i understand the exquisite pain of it.
Not "my" expectations, just expectations....arising from thoughts
So much of this stuff, you 'get' (grok) at least intellectually.
How do we transfer mind stuff into whole body experience?
What if you pick one of these 'seeings' and meditate on it? Perhaps one a day?
I can be a little less harsh with myself for not "getting it" yet.
That stuff just happens (or not) too...

with love and compassion

vince

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby CapnBoomer » Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:43 pm

Hey Dude yourself, Dude ( We are all "The Dude "at our deepest level. No?)
Great. ..but don't leave it as an unanswered puzzle. Appreciate the wonder-ful-ness of that mystery. Everything seems to emerge from it and return to it. (even though it's not an it)
Yes, I can see, sense, intuit...that there is something at work here and we just fumble around labeling it with stories and thoughts that work with our limited understandings....just descriptions, not the "Thing" (even tho its not a "Thing") The puzzle has been answered by seeing there never was a puzzle and so no need for an answer.
You have to be, at least somewhat repaired to see that.
Yup, I can see that that is so. Repaired? Rewired? Undone, perhaps....or the illusion of undoing....undoing the illusion of a separate self. Weird paradox.
So much of this stuff, you 'get' (grok) at least intellectually.
Very much so. I both get (which I think of as mind) and grok...(which I think of as more whole being, heart etc) this stuff. I get the sense that I grok it more than I will allow myself to admit or allow because....well...I'm not sure why...fear of some kind perhaps. That, and some kind of addiction, or just comfortable familiarity with the status quo...and a reluctance to give that up. In the analogy Stacy used of me being like a man holding a porcupine and screaming in pain....that pain feels good somehow...or at least I'v been convinced it does. This is deep subtle stuff and I'm reaching in trying to tease it out and put it to concepts and then words.
How do we transfer mind stuff into whole body experience?
What if you pick one of these 'seeings' and meditate on it? Perhaps one a day?
Excellent suggestion.
Appreciate the wonder-ful-ness of that mystery. Everything seems to emerge from it and return to it.
This is a good place to start...or continue....and best of all ...It (whatever that is) is self tending.

The Dude

It happened again...waiting for your response, go back and check..and I see a message
The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again.
Thats a new one....so I'll try again.
Going with "The Universe is self tending " today as a meditation.

I did just read from The Diamond Sutra via Byron Katie's book "A mind at Home with Itself"
A bodhisattva should develop a mind that abides nowhere
So that is "where" The Dude is going to abide.....nowhere....undoing what could never be.
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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:03 pm

Good evening Bennett,
The puzzle has been answered by seeing there never was a puzzle and so no need for an answer.
So, at an experiential level, is there really no seeking for answers (anymore)
There's a more subtle level of being open to answers, all the while knowing that they are stories, but not needing them. Being willing, even happy if none appear, and happy if a convenient story arises.
Is Bennett an obsessive answer seeker?
I get the sense that I grok it more than I will allow myself to admit or allow because....well...I'm not sure why...fear of some kind perhaps.
yes, this is not unusual. We are attached to the familiar. It appears safe, even if it's uncomfortable.
There's also an organism attempting to maintain the status quo. If you've ever tried to break a habit, you've experienced this one. Friends and family will also put pressure on you (without even realizing that they are doing it) to not change.
In all of these, fear is the most prominent tool used.
This is deep subtle stuff and I'm reaching in trying to tease it out and put it to concepts and then words.
Yes, i get this.
It's worth noting though, that you don't need to bring these things to a conscious level to drop them. It does work to see them, but you can safely assume that there are stories behind the uncomfortable feelings, and that assumption along with celebrating the stepping out of the (unconscious) stories is enough to thwart the completion of the usual and contribute to the re-wiring process.
I did just read from The Diamond Sutra via Byron Katie's book "A mind at Home with Itself"
A bodhisattva should develop a mind that abides nowhere
Ha, yes. i can say that i have become friends with thinking these days.
So that is "where" The Dude is going to abide.....nowhere....undoing what could never be.
Many people describe that "nowhere" as falling. Here it feels like floating (on a river called life-ing)

with much love

vince

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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby CapnBoomer » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:03 pm

Top o' th' marnin to ya Vince
It's worth noting though, that you don't need to bring these things to a conscious level to drop them.
Well thats a relief and a revelation! I think I've been ,at least somewhat, operating on the principle that to move past something, or to drop it, it needed to be clearly seen first. To assume that there are stories behind these feelings and sensations of panic and anxiety...or whatever word of the day comes to best describe it...and on that basis alone they can be safely dropped is quite the thing. It does most often feel like "it" has me rather than me having "it" and so "the dropping" is not my decision. But maybe that is just another story I've been caught in. The holding onto a porcupine image again. But then in the spirit of LU, where is the me that holding or not holding onto these feelings or patterns of being/seeing? If these feelings are simply arising and being experienced by ....no one....no subject...no noun...just the verb....just experiencing...than what needs dropping?...and by whom?
Have I worked myself into another intellectual corner or is there something to this? Maybe a little help in sorting this out?
Is Bennett an obsessive answer seeker?
Who me? "Why?" has been my mantra my whole life. That and "who says?" Seems like a big cultural thing that drives many.
So, at an experiential level, is there really no seeking for answers (anymore)
Cant say its completely gone, but certainly much reduced. I've been going with "Maybe its all right here...and always has been" than "God f-ing dammit...where the f is it?"

Off the make coffee and "Start" my day ( what bizarre sayings we've come up with)

Cheerio

Bennett
"The Dude Abides" The Big Lebowski

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vinceschubert
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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:13 pm

Good evening Bennett,
But then in the spirit of LU, where is the me that holding or not holding onto these feelings or patterns of being/seeing?... If these feelings are simply arising and being experienced by ....no one....no subject...no noun...just the verb....just experiencing...than what needs dropping?...and by whom?
Hmm, I'm not sure what your really asking here, or if you're telling something, so I'll use it as an opportunity...
Language is seductive. We think predominantly verbally, so we assume things like object requires subject. This works well for those who operate withing the cult(rural) norms. It becomes a problem for us because language evolves from common usage, and we tread outside the usual.
Remember the cup exercise. i remember that you had trouble with it in the beginning, but you did eventually see that seeing was a verb and the nouns were mentally constructed. (correct me if i remember this wrongly)
Holding is a verb. It requires no holder and not even the held. ..and anyway to say that you are holding on to feelings.. is a nonsense. How is that possible. No feeling is static. ..and patterns are a mental construction.
Now having said that (little rant) i do know what you are trying to communicate (i imagine). ..but if we look at it more literally, then what you really mean is about the reoccurrence of similar emotions (and their physical offspring)
So what we are really talking about is habit. Conditioned responses. ..and by this i mean the stories behind them. The stories that may be unconscious now. The ones that we believed so long ago that they are actually forgotten, but the triggers evoke the response to the stories even without the story being run anymore.
Have I worked myself into another intellectual corner or is there something to this? Maybe a little help in sorting this out?
What of the possibility that it doesn't need sorting out? What if it's a question (dilemma) that needs accepting? A question that doesn't require answering?
That and "who says?" Seems like a big cultural thing that drives many.
Yes, mind demands explanations. It wants satisfaction, even though satisfaction acquired requires immediate repetition.
I've been going with "Maybe its all right here...and always has been"
Great! the portal that i fell through is THIS IS IT. Maybe not so much that it's all right, but it is what it is, and by the time i become aware of what it it, it's already done. Finished. So what's the point of griping about it.

with love

vince

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CapnBoomer
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Re: Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

Postby CapnBoomer » Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:14 pm

Hello again Vince
Thanks for the very insightful reply. You sure have a way of seeing right thru the BS to the heart of the matter.
If these feelings are simply arising and being experienced by ....no one....no subject...no noun...just the verb....just experiencing...than what needs dropping?...and by whom?
Pretty sure I was intending that as a rhetorical question. But yes, language is seductive and I get what you are pointing to. It is a wholly radical shift to view the action without the subject....seeing is just seeing, no subject and maybe not even an object. But you say there here dont you?
Holding is a verb. It requires no holder and not even the held. ..and anyway to say that you are holding on to feelings.. is a nonsense. How is that possible. No feeling is static. ..and patterns are a mental construction.
Hmmm..yes, how is that possible? Can see now that it aint. I'm just so used to, habituated to, seeing and explaining it like that that I never considered its possibility. It just what happened. Like you say...
So what we are really talking about is habit. Conditioned responses. .
Thats both a less confining and powerless way of seeing it. Bit of a relief actually...to know it maybe just habit and not a curse!
Remember the cup exercise. i remember that you had trouble with it in the beginning, but you did eventually see that seeing was a verb and the nouns were mentally constructed.
Yes, I did have a glimpse of that. I just went back and looked up that post and repeated the exercise and what I "saw" was that when I looked for the seer or the seen the seeing stopped. Only in the moments between thoughts about seeing did th seeing happen and it did so on its own. Any thoughts obscured the seeing...it was still happening I just could see the seeing.
So what we are really talking about is habit. Conditioned responses. ..and by this i mean the stories behind them. The stories that may be unconscious now. The ones that we believed so long ago that they are actually forgotten, but the triggers evoke the response to the stories even without the story being run anymore.
Yes, Yes thats it..I know you have pointed this out to me before. I'll get it eventually. I just keep reexamining from different angles...the same question...same answer...just different iterations. This conditioning is deep...hundreds of thousands of millions of lifetimes worth..or however that works...its deep. Quite awesome really..to have become so thoroughly convinced of the impossible. Quite a feat. And I see what you mean about the in-cult-you-rated bit. Its quite impressive.
So what's the point of griping about it.
But is there not a point in celebrating it? Of seeing that IT is What IT is, and that's great because nothing else could be..I t may be a bridge, but that brings my hunched up shoulders and defensive posture down a few notches. The anxiety, panic, fear, worry, etc etc is groundless. All based on unquestioned beliefs and conditioning. Nothing to worry about here because it couldnt be any different. .....and so is perfect...and All Right.

Many Thanks

Bennett
"The Dude Abides" The Big Lebowski


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