Painful repetitive thought patterns

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:58 pm

Hi Vince.
Sorry for the delay in responding. However I will never deviate from this path nor stop looking and asking questions. This for me is active everyday.
Every morning I wake with such heavy dark feelings and thoughts. I look and question but nothing has changed.
I am wondering if again I am too much caught in thought and maybe it could be something that would benefit from a more bodily approach. So I looked 5his morning asking questions…where is the darkness…what colour is it.
Nothing as yet.
The controller hasn’t been as obvious and another voluntary occupation has entered my life. This may or may not hang around but I strange encounter with the manager who insisted I should be called by another moniker because there was already a helen. It was very strange to be fighting for my name which by association means my identity.
But that’s a strange analogy of how I feel love is at the moment. Something feels like a reoccurring battle. Also small things feel like an uphill push like the universe is transpiring to derail much of what I do..
Love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:43 pm

Good evening Helen,
Sorry for the delay in responding
That's not a problem. No need for sorry.
I look and question but nothing has changed.
i know that it's paradoxical, but change will happen when you stop looking for it.
The thing with being awake is that whatever is present, it is IT.
We don't get to choose what life throws at us, but the acceptance of THIS certainly removes the complication that we add to what is presented.
I am wondering if again I am too much caught in thought and maybe it could be something that would benefit from a more bodily approach.
Do you recognize when you are caught up in thought?
Are you doing the softening thing when you do?
Although that softening is an emotional response, it has a physical aspect. Look for the sensations at a physical level and report.
A bit thing here is not to start chasing your tail. If you constantly look to find a new way to do something, then nothing matures. Nothing gets finished.
It was very strange to be fighting for my name which by association means my identity.
Tell me (from experience) what it means to be identified as Helen. How does identity work?
Something feels like a reoccurring battle.
i guess that it is reoccurring, but this time we are focussing on the war, not just the battle.
Also small things feel like an uphill push like the universe is transpiring to derail much of what I do..
Are you keeping healthy. Eating and sleeping adequately?

with love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:58 pm

Hello Vince
The thing with being awake is that whatever is present, it is IT.
I am settling with this more and more and it has started to become somewhere I go to when my head becomes full.
I just could t accept it at first, perhaps still do from time to time but there is also a knowing that THIS is all there is. And yes absolutely it ….
removes the complication that we add to what is presented.
Do you recognize when you are caught up in thought?
Are you doing the softening thing when you do?
I am recognising more and more when I’m bound in thought. Although sometimes it does rattle on. Life has given me many distractions now which I feel are right to follow. I did ask the universe to send me something I could offer in service to life so this was answered. Yes I do the softening thing because it is in direct contrast to the worry and anxiety. This is becoming more noticeable.
In these fleeting moments I seem to sink into an almost reverential and godly space…no not space and godly sounds wrong. A sweet, hazy cherishing.
Look for the sensations at a physical level and report.
I will do.
Eating and sleeping adequately?
I think so.
Tell me (from experience) what it means to be identified as Helen. How does identity work?
Because my name had to be changed because there was another Helen I felt something had been taken and/or I wouldn’t be known. Just as I write I feel that I was being ignored and they wouldn’t know me without my name. I suppose the not knowing me thing would be my story that would t be seen. But it wouldn’t be seen anyway because I don’t know these people well enough. Interesting. Identity differentiates. Sets each other apart. Ooooooo yes. Only by language. It kind of puts a bubble around the person and it’s recognised that they own their own story. It then sets up judgement. Hmmm I will look more at that.
All my love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:25 pm

Good evening Helen,
I am settling with this more and more and it has started to become somewhere I go to when my head becomes full.
For me it is inescapable. How could it be anything else than what it is.
Certainly, surrendering to it can take the stress out of the story that it should be different. Is this what you mean?
I am recognising more and more when I’m bound in thought.
Excellent. This happening is huge in the re-wiring process. It's amazing how just seeing that it is happening is enough to change it.
In these fleeting moments I seem to sink into an almost reverential and godly space…no not space and godly sounds wrong. A sweet, hazy cherishing.
Would you call this peace? (it sounds lovely)
I felt something had been taken and/or I wouldn’t be known.
Hmm, just as there is an illusion that an inherent self exists, there is an illusion that others exist too.
That's not to say that there isn't another human being 'out there'. It's just that the idea that we know anything about them is ludicrous. What we relate to is our idea of somebody. Just as our idea of the world is related to.
When we offer somebody our name to relate to, we are just offering them the title of out story, for them to project their own ideas onto.
Hmmm I will look more at that.
Good stuff.

with love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:04 pm

Hiya Vince.
“I am settling with this more and more and it has started to become somewhere I go to when my head becomes full.”

Fo
r me it is inescapable. How could it be anything else than what it is.
Certainly, surrendering to it can take the stress out of the story that it should be different. Is this what you mean?
It feels more proactive than surrender. I sort of come out of the mass of thoughts more when it becomes intense. Like this morning, the usual death imaginings happened and thoughts around what would I do if… yes it’s a personal story but other family is involved and I am imagining strategies. If seen from a distanced perspective it seems like strange entertainment with me playing an important part. Hmmmm all I stuff. But my head was full until I was seeing it all as scary story and I went to the place of softness. It must be here all the time therefore inescapable but being in the mind must occlude it.
Yes the reverential space could be called peace but I imagined peace to be stillness this moment was more alive. Warm sun on my back, the sounds of village activity and the sight of the river running through greenery.. all the senses bound together in a blurry dreamlike way but very real. It was very picturesque but it was noticed without analysis or words.

Look for the sensations at a physical level and report.
In the softeners space the body also softens. Breathing deepens and a more relaxed position follows. Softening of shoulders and jaw.
I like the thought that whatever happens is a coming together and aligning to bring about the now that is now.
All my love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:07 pm

Good morning Helen,
It feels more proactive than surrender.
Ok, i get that it has energy (please correct me if that's not accurate) ..but please reassure me that it's not an apparent choice/decision/control thing. i hope that it just arises.
it seems like strange entertainment with me playing an important part. Hmmm..
i like the "Hmmm"
If we say something general, like it's a mind strategy to make you feel good, then we open up to the 'how does it?'
Can you find the story behind it? In what way does it change your feelings?
It must be here all the time therefore inescapable but being in the mind must occlude it.
Absolutely. Great realization.
It's almost paradoxical that even amidst chaos and fear that this base exists. Turmoil occludes (love this description of it)
this moment was more alive. Warm sun on my back, the sounds of village activity and the sight of the river running through greenery.. all the senses bound together in a blurry dreamlike way but very real. It was very picturesque but it was noticed without analysis or words.
Beautiful.
You might call this direct experiencing. (pre-mind)
In the softeners space the body also softens. Breathing deepens and a more relaxed position follows. Softening of shoulders and jaw.
Excellent. It might seem like a simple process to notice these things, but the effect is actually profound.
What do you imagine that effect is?

with love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:21 pm

Hi Vince.
Ok, i get that it has energy (please correct me if that's not accurate) ..but please reassure me that it's not an apparent choice/decision/control thing. i hope that it just arises.
Ah this was when I go to a place of softness and I now understand what you mean. Sorry I can’t reassure you but there does seem to have a control element to it. Like I go there when I want to, sort of thing. So this just happens and not as a consequence of anything? It must be mind that says it is.
What I feel Is happening is that I am now going to experience rather that reason or knowledge. This highlights just how much knowledge I accumulated about this and why nothing was changing.
If we say something general, like it's a mind strategy to make you feel good, then we open up to the 'how does it?'
Can you find the story behind it? In what way does it change your feelings?
This is interesting. I presume this is about my feeling to control shifting into the soft place. It make me feel distanced from worry and the attention shifts. No I can’t see story but I’m trusting more and more there will be story behind it. The word story is more workable than belief.
Actually I looked again and saw that if indeed this lovely space just arises then the story would be I have to make this happen or it won’t happen. Also it may not happen again if I don’t remember to do it. This bring up a story of lack…not worthy…
And questions of will it ever happen again
. I
t might seem like a simple process to notice these things, but the effect is actually profound.
What do you imagine that effect is?
I don’t understand why noticing bodily reaction is profound. The effect is a relaxation without fight. A sort of I’m safe…no not safe… all is as it should be without fear or monitoring anything.
All my love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:17 pm

but there does seem to have a control element to it. Like I go there when I want to, sort of thing
This might be a good example to clear up this control thing completely.
So, correct me if I'm wrong with any of this.
The idea happens that you can go there, then there is a memory of the body softening and the feeling of being in that place.
Somewhere there might also be the idea that you could choose not to, but if all of the conditions are right for you to do it, then it happens.
Where does the idea to go there come from?
Is it triggered by the feelings that you have?
What I feel Is happening is that I am now going to experience rather that reason or knowledge.
What you think is happening is that now you are going to experience something and not think about it. Is this right?
I presume this is about my feeling to control shifting into the soft place.
It is about the thinking that leads you into this feeling. What are your thoughts about the feeling that you expect to happen? (just before it happens)
then the story would be I have to make this happen or it won’t happen.
Ok, how do you make it happen? What is the process?
Also it may not happen again if I don’t remember to do it.
You talk like remembering is an act of control. Would it be accurate to say that remembering happens (or not)?
If the thought arises to remember it, then you are remembering it. Right?
I don’t understand why noticing bodily reaction is profound. The effect is a relaxation without fight.
Exactly. It takes you out of the trap of getting sucked into the content of some story that might lead to suffering. It is a way of anchoring or grounding.

big love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:25 pm

Hi Vince.
Shocked, disillusioned, crushed. I am not in control of resting back into a soft space?
It just happens? I thought I knew all about this path now. All the reading, guru worshipping, not to mention the spending on retreats. o it’s all come to nought.
The idea happens that you can go there, then there is a memory of the body softening and the feeling of being in that place.
Somewhere there might also be the idea that you could choose not to,
Yes. I did think this was true. Even this sort of sanctuary I cannot sink into by will?
Where does the idea to go there come from?
Is it triggered by the feelings that you have?
Memory of what it felt like. Yes I would say it’s triggered by feelings. Like I said about medical treatment that I would try to go into that place or state. I must say this has left me very confused now. Is this because that is the natural state and the occlusion of me thoughts falls away revealing self? But I cannot relax to make this happen.
What you think is happening is that now you are going to experience something and not think about it.
Yes that is what I meant at the time but that seems a distant memory when thoughts become dark.
What are your thoughts about the feeling that you expect to happen?
I feel it’s a place of escape I suppose. A retreat. A place that I won’t be hurt.
Ok, how do you make it happen? What is the process?
I love how you question things like this. It shows me what could be brought into the light. I cannot do this myself.
The process is I soften my breath and pay attention to hearing. It’s a sort of being aware of an internal space.
Yes, that it, I shift my attention.
You talk like remembering is an act of control. Would it be accurate to say that remembering happens (or not)?
O gosh, yes, I feel I am in control of whether to turn to memory or not. Yes it’s possible that remembering just happens. So does memory just rise and it becomes knowable in the now?
If the thought arises to remember it, then you are remembering it. Right?
Not quite sure. Here I think you are saying that it’s the thought to remember that precedes the memory. Not quite getting this as it sounds like there is action driven by thought.
O the control thing and by association the I thing seems like it just happens and there is nothing to be done. Some people do say that. Very disheartening.
Big love helen
It leaves

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:19 pm

Good evening Helen,
Shocked, disillusioned, crushed. I am not in control of resting back into a soft space?
It just happens?
No. It doesn't JUST happen. It happens!
It may seem to be control that brings it on, but that is what it SEEMS to be. It's much more complex than that.
What you did to induce it was definitely involved. It was a significant part of the necessary conditions for it to happen. In fact it probably tipped the scales most of the time that you wanted to go to that safe place.
..but when you examine it, you would have to say that all of the circumstances that needed to be in place for it to happen, they were all there. Otherwise it couldn't have happened. Right ?
Equally true is that because all of the necessary circumstances were in place, that it had to happen. Exactly as it did. Right?
Where's the control in this?
Certainly, what seemed to be control, was one of the bits. It just wasn't actually control.
I thought I knew all about this path now.
Hahaha. Wait until you wake up. Then you'll realize that you know nothing.
All the reading, guru worshipping, not to mention the spending on retreats. o it’s all come to nought.
Not true. Everything that has ever happened to you has brought you to this exact place.
Even this sort of sanctuary I cannot sink into by will?
True. ..but that doesn't mean that it won't happen. It will!
I must say this has left me very confused now.
Ok, surrender to it. Trust that life will look after you.
Is this because that is the natural state and the occlusion of me thoughts falls away revealing self?
Exactly the opposite. No thoughts = no self. Self only exists because of thoughts. Self is a story.
Stop trying to control your thoughts. Just watch them even without paying much attention to the details.
But I cannot relax to make this happen.
Ha. Using relaxation as a control thing is interesting.
What are your thoughts about the feeling that you expect to happen?
I feel it’s a place of escape I suppose. A retreat. A place that I won’t be hurt.
..and these thoughts bring on a feeling that develop into that soft place, aye?
The process is I soften my breath and pay attention to hearing. It’s a sort of being aware of an internal space.
Yes, that it, I shift my attention.
Yes, exactly. When you bring your attention to the body and to sensations, what do you think is happening in the mind?
So does memory just rise and it becomes knowable in the now?
Yes. ..and when it happens, then it can't not happen. All of the bits that contributed to it happening, that made it happen, also made it so it had to happen.
Here I think you are saying that it’s the thought to remember that precedes the memory.
No, I'm saying that the idea to remember is the memory itself. It's included.
If you have an idea to remember, then you know what it is going to remember. Certainly the details of the memory may not have been played out, but the cover of the book (memory) is displayed and the title is obvious, and so seeing the title you know that you also know the details of the memory. At that point you might give yourself permission to involve in the details of the memory, but is isn't necessary.
This is pretty deep and subtle, so read this as many times as you need and check it out in your own experience to see if it fits.
O the control thing and by association the I thing seems like it just happens and there is nothing to be done. Some people do say that. Very disheartening.
It's only disheartning because you haven't embrace it yet. It's actually very freeing. Liberating.

much love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:46 pm

Hi Vince.
.
.but when you examine it, you would have to say that all of the circumstances that needed to be in place for it to happen, they were all there. Otherwise it couldn't have happened. Right ?
Yes. I feels right.
Equally true is that because all of the necessary circumstances were in place, that it had to happen. Exactly as it did. Right?
Where's the control in this?
Again yes this feels right. And the control thing doesn’t feature in this knowing. It’s feels expansive and real somehow.
Mind didn’t come in to need control when rightness appears.
H
a. Using relaxation as a control thing is interesting.
Again yes. ‘Right now I will relax, drop the shoulders and move inwards’. Then it will happen! But what will happen? !!!
Yes, exactly. When you bring your attention to the body and to sensations, what do you think is happening in the mind?
It’s not noticed therefore it’s not happening. BUT the big one is I thought I could control where I place attention. I thought this was a choice to shift attention to being aware of senses instead of thoughts. Am sure one the masters said that is our only choice.
Now the memory thing. I do see that the thought to remember and the memory itself is all bundled up together.
If you have an idea to remember, then you know what it is going to remember.
haha this was funny. Of course!
I sort of get the book cover, title and content thing. But again when I see the title and there is no need for detailed content then I thought it was a choice/control whether to follow it or not if it’s just story. So glad these questions have arisen as I have been confused about these subtle things that feel like they can be controlled.
All my love Helena

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:24 am

Hi Helena, i'm just a bit busy at the moment. i will respond to your post tomorrow...
Stay relaxed.

with love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:34 pm

Good morning Helena, what was your reaction to me not posting yesterday?
Mind didn’t come in to need control when rightness appears.
Does the mind come into play to judge "rightness"?
But what will happen? !!!
Maybe, maybe not. If circumstances aren't conducive to it happening, then it won't. If they are then it will. ..and here's an interesting thing. Whether it did or didn't... we are talking past tense. This has little influence on what might happen next. That is unless you get sucked into a story about what it means. Then it's not what happened or didn't, it's the involvement in the story that impacts future happenings.
BUT the big one is I thought I could control where I place attention. I thought this was a choice to shift attention to being aware of senses instead of thoughts. Am sure one the masters said that is our only choice.
Hmm, tell me what happens if the thoughts to shift attention don't appear. In this scenario, you've previously decided that you agree with the masters and you have control over choosing to do this, but attention is captivated by what is happening and the idea to shift it (attention) to the body doesn't happen. Do you shift into denialism and say "Oh, i have control, but it just didn't work this time."
Would you agree that if you actually have control then it's not hit or miss if it works?
Now, here a really big thing. Recognizing that we never actually had control, that it is an illusion, doesn't make us victims. Exactly the opposite. It invites us to go with the flow. It widens our perspective and open the probability that we will notice the circumstances that are present. The circumstances that promoted what actually happened.
It is also freedom from the (fake) responsibility for what happened.
If we are relaxed and notice what happens without judgement, we are much more likely to learn from the situation.
But again when I see the title and there is no need for detailed content then I thought it was a choice/control whether to follow it or not if it’s just story.
There are likely many reasons to follow it or not.
Habit might be why it is helplessly followed. With habit there will be a promise of sensations of satisfaction.
Entertainment is a reason for following it, but this a future happening for you. (probably)
So glad these questions have arisen as I have been confused about these subtle things
Yes, we are getting into the inner workings now. Only subtle because they aren't usually examined.

with much love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:48 am

Hi Vince
what was your reaction to me not posting yesterday
It wasn’t a strong reaction because I appreciate your time given here already and I trust that you would reply when necessary. I also understand that anything in these posts aren’t personal. But I was perplexed by the question. Wondering what was the reason behind it, so interestingly many twisting thoughts were trying to work out stories of why it was asked. I always eagerly await messages of your pushing and prompting to challenge my sense of self though.
Hmm, tell me what happens if the thoughts to shift attention don't appear.

Ooo gosh. If the thoughts to shift attention don’t appear then attention wouldn’t be on mind and the added layer of someone controlling it wouldn’t appear. I asked myself what then is attention. It can’t be a separate subtle thing so attention must be a word for what is sensed in that moment. But because it has been named, it’s set apart and put in the controllable section. So that begs the question of ‘controlling the controllables’ and the serenity prayer…having to change what I can and accept what I can’t, are these in line with what’s true? It is sounding like an all or nothing concept. Control must only be mind. I could t even contemplate this before and outright rejected it (although understood on some level), but then it was contemplated and now it feels a possibility that if there is no I there is no controller. Hmmmm.
Would you agree that if you actually have control then it's not hit or miss if it works?
Yes I would agree even though thoughts say ‘yea but what about if …!
Recognizing that we never actually had control, that it is an illusion, doesn't make us victims. Exactly the opposite. It invites us to go with the flow.
It can’t make us victims because the events that kept us in victimhood … being badly done to etc…wasn’t my fault so therefore I didn’t make it happen. It seems to be the control thing that is bound up with anything labelled good or bad. The pushing and pulling that we think we have control to bring or deject. This indeed is a big one with multi faceted thoughts of what I thought of what could be controlled. It’s now the subtle stuff that needs to be examined.
Much love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:01 pm

Good evening Helen,
I also understand that anything in these posts aren’t personal.
Wondering what was the reason behind it, so interestingly many twisting thoughts were trying to work out stories of why it was asked.
Good answer. i was just checking that you didn't take it personally, and am happy that you didn't. We don't want any dependency happening.
I asked myself what then is attention.
Ooh, i like this. You developing a skill to investigate these things for yourself. A good point here is that there will be questions that don't have a ready answers. I've heard it said that questions have answers inherent to them, and although i agree, frequently it is good to leave questions without a resolution. This often opens up multiple possibilities.
But because it has been named, it’s set apart and put in the controllable section.
This is good too. Yes when a label is attached to something, we often proceed to relate to that label and not the original...
having to change what I can and accept what I can’t
Nothing that has already happened can be changed. If we don't get hung up in wishing it were different, then our perspective isn't narrowed and learning from it is more likely. So, nothing can be changed and by accepting everything that has happened, future events can be more adaptable.
then it was contemplated and now it feels a possibility that if there is no I there is no controller. Hmmmm.
This is good logic. Even better is to notice in experience how the idea of control happens. To notice the infinite number of conditions present that facilitate any happening. Be relaxed and watch and you will see this.
It seems to be the control thing that is bound up with anything labelled good or bad.
Yes, yes. (boy, you are firing tonight) Not accepting is the forerunner of judgement. Having an opinion. This, if held tightly inevitably leads to suffering.
It’s now the subtle stuff that needs to be examined.
Yes, we've already started. That softness is a great way to the sensitivity to notice the more subtle realms.

with love

vince


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