Painful repetitive thought patterns

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:11 pm

Hi Vince

I
ntention, the response to the illusion of control, the facility for the happening are just some of the probable conditions required for a happening. There are many more, in fact, everything that has ever happened since the beginning of existence had to happen exactly as it did for that happening to occur. Every happening was a necessary condition. Can you grok this?
Not quite sure. So all the conditions line up to make a happening. Yes everything aligns to bring about what is happening. I do sort of get this but not sure about the conditions. I suppose it’s because whilst I think there is a controller (which I am slowly coming to see there is t but only in certain circumstances) there are conditions to be controlled so therefore conditions can be manipulated. It does beg the question of what am I if not a participator.
BUT..
ow has being the controller worked out for you?
. Mind would say through memory it has achieved much but it reality it has caused fear and anxiety.

Love helen

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vinceschubert
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:28 pm

Good morning Helen,
everything that has ever happened since the beginning of existence had to happen exactly as it did for that happening to occur. Every happening was a necessary condition...Can you grok this?
Not quite sure.
Ok, yes, it's a bit hard to get your head around. Conditions aren't things. Language implies that they are, but they're not. It's a word that describes circumstances, and circumstances are not things either. For example one of the conditions required for you to cross the room and sit at your computer is your ability to walk. Another is the existence of the floor that you walked on. Another is the intent that arose to do it.
The existence of the floor depended on the house being built. This required the local government zoning laws to be as they were. Etc, etc. We could even go back to whether some person who was contingent in surveying the land had a satisfactory breakfast on the day he did the job. ..and whether his grandfather met his grandmother when he did. ...and what if their ancestors met with an accident and got eaten by a wild beast?
You see, everything had to happen exactly the way it did for the necessary conditions to be in place for you to walk across that floor, when and how you did.
Thought disregards all of the complexity and focuses on the intent that arose and claims control of it, but just like the million other happenings that made it possible, that intent arose before it was claimed by another thought.
This is such a big one that we should stay with it until it is fully grokked.
For me, it was the doorway, the portal to grokking one-ness. It was a useful story that revealed how vince couldn't be separate from not only every other person or animal or tree or anything, but how every event, every happening that has ever occurred since the beginning of existence (and maybe even before that!) had to be exactly as it was for me to be here tapping on a keyboard.
Wow, the hair on the back of my neck is standing up as it swim in this story.
there are conditions to be controlled so therefore conditions can be manipulated.
No, it only seems this way. It is an illusion. Albeit a useful one.
It does beg the question of what am I if not a participator.
Oh you are. Just not an independent one. That butterfly in the Amazon jungle is too, and just as much as Helen is.
Mind would say through memory it has achieved much but it reality it has caused fear and anxiety.
..and if it actually had control, would it choose that fear and anxiety?

with much love

vince
..and thankyou for being one of the conditions that took me back into that story of oneness. i love the refreshment of how insignificant vince is in the overall scheme of things, yet how integral and necessary i am for THIS to BE. [L] [L]

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:52 am

Hi Vince.
This is such a big one that we should stay with it until it is fully grokked
.
Yes please I feel I got it a tiny bit but want to fully explore this because if seen would allow life to be seen the ego self would have no relevance here and life would be lived with awe.
Thought disregards all of the complexity and focuses on the intent that arose and claims control of it, but just like the million other happenings that made it possible, that intent arose before it was claimed by another thought.
So intent is just a happening ! I thought I had seen this before but like everything before it was just more knowledge for the mind to grasp. I feel like I am fiddling with detail rather than seeing the bigger picture.

The conditions of past generations and actions taken all seem to imply a timeline which then adds to the separate story so I feel mind switching from generational stuff to future actions which then implies a me. Mind cannot get this as it works with past and future where a me is involved. This seems to be the crux of the matter. Seeing from a me.

i
love the refreshment of how insignificant vince is in the overall scheme of things, yet how integral and necessary i am for THIS to BE.
Wow. I love learning about this paradox. I can’t grok it (a word I have come across a lot on this path that I hadn’t heard before)
And I don’t quite know how to explore it like I’ve explored untruths. Please say more.
Thank you Vince I am very grateful for your words of wisdom.
Love helen

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vinceschubert
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:30 pm

Good evening Helen,
ego self would have no relevance here
Oh, ego does have relevance. ..but in saying this we have to define what we mean by ego. It is a word with a thousand meanings. Different for everybody.
We can fairly easily see that there is no actual, inherent self running the show, but we can't deny that there is a whole book about a self. Many chapters each describing different aspects, different characteristics of this identity.
Ego is often used to aggrandize the identification with certain aspects of the story. Which brings us to how we respond to that story. What we refer to as ego is that feeling of being more important. Special. When we feel inflated about ourselves, we are identifying with that story big time.
This whole process is intending to dissolve that bond to the story. To cease identifying with anything. To recognize that identification is to respond to that story blindly.
How ego and self is relevant is that it enables us to negotiate daily life. It's necessary for communication.
But when we use a hammer we don't think that we are a hammer. It is a useful tool. Well, self/ego is just that. A useful tool. We don't need to identify as it to use it.
When somebody compliments us, we (usually) get a flood of good feelings. That is ego, and it will continue for some time, but at the same time we don't need to believe that feeling is saying anything real. It is just habit from years of conditioning.
and life would be lived with awe.
There will (probably)be much of that to anticipate, but it is unlikely that it will be always there.
So intent is just a happening!
Always look to your own experiencing to check these things. You can often see triggers that seem to produce thoughts that state intentions, but if you look closer you can see that there are many other conditions involved. Then you can check to see if those intentions were carried out the way they were originally meant to be. We usually remember the ones that happened like we wanted and forget the ones that didn't eventuate. Watch over the next 24 hours and see what occurs.
I feel like I am fiddling with detail rather than seeing the bigger picture.
The bigger picture is made up of details. What you fiddle with just happens. Be relaxed.
The conditions of past generations and actions taken all seem to imply a timeline
Yes, conditions and time are both stories. They can't get close to what is actual, but they do point to something.
Mind cannot get this as it works with past and future where a me is involved. This seems to be the crux of the matter. Seeing from a me.
Yes. The sense of self doesn' mean an actual self. When we believed it to be actual, it was a delusion. Now it is a mirage, an illusion. That will persist because you are human. It's that useful tool again.
And I don’t quite know how to explore it like I’ve explored untruths. Please say more.
We are doing that. It's interesting that when one untruth is discovered, others are revealed at the same time.
i fell through the portal THIS IS IT, and when asked about the existence of a Self, it was instantly clear that it wasn't actual. The same for control and responsibility. When the story of conditions was formed, there was a recognition that everything is/was dependent on everything else. That the interdependence went as far as there being no bits, but that it was all one.
Words are entirely inadequate. It's like i am trying to chop a huge tree down with a pocket knife. If i could share this throbbing in my head and this sensation in my stomach with you, you would instantly recognize what i mean.
You are me. You are the part of me that aches to understand what is beyond the capacity of this puny mind.
Thank you Vince I am very grateful for your words
You're welcome, and thank you Helen for taking me on this exciting journey. Tonight has been a blast.

with much love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:32 am

Hi Vince
Wow. How you speak about ego is so refreshing and quite freeing in way. In my head it has become quite the demon and it’s a fight with strong conditioning of ‘I can’t, I should’.
As I type I was going to say ‘it’s been beating me up all my life’ but stop… who is the me that is being beaten up? It has to be story somehow. If there is no personal self, cause and effect, no time, only what is happening right now, everything must be a direct sensing plus minds chatter and story.
Yes it has to be about …
intending to dissolve that bond to the story. To cease identifying with anything. To recognize that identification is to respond to that story blindly.
I will look at intention more closely. Although it does seem like it’s only thought which on the whole doesn’t happen as intended. But there is also vague impulses that arise to perform an act without a story. Example… I reluctantly bought a book for my grandson from a charity stall(I have too many already). On opening it at home the book contained how to build a junk rocket. Actions from that took me to finding boxes and cartons to make it. Now thought said I shouldnt buy another book , but I did which led to me quite liking collecting cartons and boxes. Loads of thoughts that said I shouldn’t. ‘Kid/son/daughter in law’ might not like it. But still the actions were taken and hopefully they might like making it. But it threw into light how many ‘should and shouldn’t ‘ happened in such a small space of time and actions happened anyway. Also intent didn’t seem to feature, only impulsive actions.
Also, I must admit I am seeing more of what I anticipate and hope for in an imagined future if ‘this’ is seen. Not great epiphanies, or peak experiences but a falling away of mind, a lightness never experienced before, no more personal binding. I have seen a lot of what we talk about but I remain in a feeling of very heavy hopelessness and utter pointless existence. I still wonder how can this be? There I’ve said it.
If i could share this throbbing in my head and this sensation in my stomach with you, you would instantly recognize what i mean.
You are me. You are the part of me that aches to understand what is beyond the capacity of this puny mind.
Oh gosh. I don’t know what to mAke of this. So you still ache to understand? Or is it these conditions here are triggering doubt?

Thank you. Love helen.

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:07 pm

Good evening Helen,
In my head it has become quite the demon and it’s a fight with strong conditioning of ‘I can’t, I should’.
Ha yes. The way people speak about the ego make it seem to be an actual thing. Something to go to war with.
There's no reason to fight it. It's not an enemy. It's just a way of thinking and responding to that thinking. Misguided and maladaptive to be sure, but the way to change it isn't with control. (haha, as if it even exists)
I was going to say ‘it’s been beating me up all my life’ but stop… who is the me that is being beaten up?
It's quite legitimate to describe how you have felt. It doesn't make the how or why true. Just the what.
It has to be story somehow.
Certainly it's a story, and your experience of responding to that story.
If there is no personal self, cause and effect, no time, only what is happening right now, everything must be a direct sensing plus minds chatter and story.
Yes, and the reactions to that.
We tend to take notice of the red lights and miss the green one. Just as we remember the experiencing and miss the stories behind them. (not that the stories are green lights. They just get overshadowed by the emotional experiences)
But there is also vague impulses that arise to perform an act without a story.
Yes, but it's not that there's no story. It's that the story isn't needed anymore as the response to it has become automatic and unconscious. i hesitate to say that there is always a story, but it seems that way here.
For example, babies aren't afraid of snakes, but most adults will recoil at even what is imagined to be a snake without thinking.
I have seen a lot of what we talk about but I remain in a feeling of very heavy hopelessness and utter pointless existence. I still wonder how can this be? There I’ve said it.
Wondering happens. Saying it happens. Hopelessness happens. We (well i do) have a story that these things will change. (as everything does) ..but we also know that trying to bring about that change isn't what is going to do it. These things, as unpleasant as they are are your friends. They are attempting to protect you. Of course they are misguided, but in the past they were your best at it.
Please, don't ever say what you think that i want you to say. Blunt honesty is our best tool here.
Oh gosh. I don’t know what to mAke of this. So you still ache to understand?
Ha, no i don't seek anymore. i did find a part of me that used to ache severely, that still had some leftover. It was buried deeply until i immersed in empathy with you. Thankyou for that.
It is still there now, but it is cradled in mirth.
Although i don't seek anymore, i am very open to discover more of the great mystery.

with love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:39 pm

Hi Vince.
Blunt honesty is our best tool here.
I ha e always tried to be honest but am guilty of speaking from knowledge rather than experience.
However yesterday I was confronted with shame.
Because I am under a different doctor I was reviewed for my anti depressant tablets, which are mainly for anxiety some weeks ago . He recommended I join a Health Minds group which meets for activities. During these activities (mainly chatting over simple tasks) I noticed on separate occasions that I desperately needed to ‘help’ people who I saw were upset or withdrawn. I moved over to chat/console. It became clear I was trying to take control. One incident saw the facilitator tell me it’s ok we will deal with whatever we see as in distress or distancing. I suddenly saw how I was taking over. Who do I think I am?? I don’t really know these people nor am I trained. I am crushed. Messiah complex or what? I saw I have always done that from being a child with parents who used me as a mediator. I have always known this and recognised it in my mother role. But this was so shocking and very obvious it was shameful. Smacked in the face with an exaggerated sense of myself. Needing to be appreciated and like. It’s vile. It felt strange like I was really sick of myself.
You previous message was about misguided thoughts/beliefs which can be seen but not the enemy and I was onboard with this until this incident which has brought shame. How dare I? This was so strong because it brought up stories of manipulation which now I am so sorry for.
Blessings, helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:36 pm

very good morning Helen.
How dare I? This was so strong because it brought up stories of manipulation which now I am so sorry for.
Well, this is cause for celebration. Not for the shame, but for seeing it. That recognition is a turning point. That is as long as you don't squander it by wallowing in self abuse.
Another aspect of this is self healing. Wanting to help others is all about helping yourself. The projected pain can be excruciating.
i too suffer from this dis-ease, but these days it is under control (you know that i don't mean actual control) and it isn't forced on anyone, and I'm relaxed about that. Guiding here is the biggest manifestation of it.

with great love & compassion

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:57 am

Well, well, thank you Vince. Yet another wonderful response. I can never predict how your response would appear. Never disappoints as the other guides have before.
You are teaching me the kind approach to experience and it’s softer and sensitive which i know is my nature but feels covered with manipulating protective bias because soft and sensitive feels weak and easily attacked.
self healing. Wanting to help others is all about helping yourself.
This is a much kinder approach than seeing it as selfish. Selfish approach being, I am selfish because I want to make things better so I can feel better. Which is what I believed these actions were.

Code: Select all

i too suffer from this dis-ease….Guiding here is the biggest manifestation of it.
all my life I found myself both socially and in employment as someone who empathises then advises through the need to make things better. You call it projected pain which of course it actually is! I do I feel I am feeling their pain but that cannot be true. I recognise that but very infrequently.
That is as long as you don't squander it by wallowing in self abuse.
hmmmm interesting. Not squandering the recognition. This would be the usual course of action. But something tells me this is the old way let’s try a new one.
O you have opened my eyes to what is happening. I sort of know but when it’s laid out like this it seems to find a home.

Thank you
Love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:55 pm

Good evening Helen,
it’s softer and sensitive which i know is my nature but feels covered with manipulating protective bias because soft and sensitive feels weak and easily attacked.
Ah yes. This is a big one. The need to defend will eventually dissipate. After all, what is there to defend? The story of Helen? Everybody (including you) has their own version of that story, and they are all fiction. Every one of them.
When you are vulnerable the world looks after you. (because it is you)
seeing it as selfish
Morals are created by cult(ure), by society. They change all the time. If you examine it, the paradox becomes quickly evident. Everybody has self-interest as a high priority. Many would like to think that it's not at the expense of someone else, but if it comes down to it...
So of course helping someone else will make us feel better. It becomes a problem when our ego gets inflated, when our story of self-importance gets out of hand.
I do I feel I am feeling their pain
That's called empathy. It's trite to say that it's your pain that you are feeling, but sometimes that is accurate. It quickly gets into the mystery realm though as there's more to it.
this is the old way let’s try a new one.
Yay!
Be gentle with yourself. We are reconfiguring your brain and this takes time.

with love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:36 pm

Everybody has self-interest as a high priority. Many would like to think that it's not at the expense of someone else, but if it comes down to it...
Yes I have seen that part of myself. So that made me see that trying to ease someone’s pain may not be as altruistic as I thought and has a sense of ‘quick feel better so so I can relax’. But in understanding this I see that ego could and has at times made it into ‘I have helped this time so I can do it again’ it’s quite insidious how these thought come and take root, grow bigger and evolve into an inflated sense of self importance.
It’s also strange at the moment I am noticing how feelings can suddenly switch from feeling humble and centred to self pity. Both feel stronger than ever. Odd

Blessings, helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:02 pm

Good evening Helen,
So that made me see that trying to ease someone’s pain may not be as altruistic as I thought
Ah yes, as a 12 year old, i remember thinking that there's no such thing as true altruism. My reasoning then was that there's always a payoff, even it it's just to feel good about it.
Now, i see this as a reasonable spinoff, a side effect of helping. Helping happens. It happens if conditions are right for it to happen. ..and if you have had a lifetime of leaning towards this, then conditioning is such that it will likely continue to happen. The difference now is that you are able to see your motives for doing it, and you are not likely to get an inflated ego from it.
An additional value may also be that you see how helping others is helping Helen. There's no actual morality involved (only in story) It happens, or not. The how and why might not be seen. They can remain a mystery. It's the what that will be noticed.
it’s quite insidious how these thought come and take root, grow bigger and evolve into an inflated sense of self importance.
It can be insidious, for sure, but you are learning (and i am being reminded) that there is great value in being mindful about this. (if it happens)
I am noticing how feelings can suddenly switch from feeling humble and centred to self pity.
Ah yes. The more wide awake we become the less filtered our emotions become. We don't get stuck in any story for too long. Each of these feelings have baggage. Stories that hang off them. We label them good or bad. The good ones we want to prolong and the bad ones we want to end. If you can say to yourself that "i am feeling self pity" then that will take you out of the immersion of it and it will dissipate. If you notice the sensations and can describe them, that will also take you out of that pit. Notice then celebrate the noticing will short circuit the completion and accelerate the atrophy of those brain circuits. The celebration (the smile or laughter) will also change the hormones that bring about that mood.
Odd
Enjoy the mystery of it. It's wonder full.

with love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:22 pm

Hi Vince.
It’s becoming more evident just how I am carry shame and guilt. Whilst I have lived a life that’s not been lawbreaking I have been involved in some events that could be considered as ‘just wrong’. And shameful. I have been aware of these all my life and tried to forgive myself but unable to.
Now if life is just life and lived without volition then these events just happened! If there is no me then the sin can’t come from a me and it just was without judgement.
This is a hard one to get.
Love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:10 am

Good morning Helen,
It’s becoming more evident just how I am carry shame and guilt.
It's easy to get immediately sucked into these emotions, but... Big 'but', but a right perspective it that you have seen that this happened. This seeing is worth celebrating! Smile now. Go on. Even a weak grin is enough.
Now, let's look at shame and guilt. Does shame come out of guilt?, or does guilt come out of shame?
It's pretty obvious that you feel guilty about something that you are ashamed of. So firstly let's look at shame. That is feeling ashamed. Whatever the happening that you are feeling ashamed of is, you have to have judged it as bad or wrong.
Now you may have done this by considering the consequences of it, but more likely that judgement has come from a story that you accepted way back in your past.
It is very likely that is something that society (our culture) has deemed bad and without examining it your parents and friends have repeated how bad it is until you have internalized it.
Now when you think of it, the unpleasant feelings (shame and guilt) arrive instantly. It seems that the story of it being bad or wrong doesn't even play out. There is just an immediate connection between the memory and the feelings.
Now, i'm not going to tell you that it wasn't bad or wrong, but i want you to see that "bad/wrong" depends on circumstances. Mostly those are the society that you live in and have been conditioned by. If you were a native living in the jungle 500 years ago, would it still be considered wrong?
Before we even get to what 'self' committed these shameful deeds, ask Helen "is in the past?" "Is it possible to change what happened?"
Then ask her "What is the benefit of still feeling shame and guilt about it now?" (what is the first thing that comes to mind?)
Now if life is just life and lived without volition then these events just happened!
Absolutely. Just as the judgment just happened. Just as the horrible emotions just happened. Just as everything that preceded that happening also just happened. ..and everything that provided the right conditions for those happenings, they just happened too.
This is a hard one to get.
Yes, that will just happen too.

great love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:54 am

Hi Vince
Yes reframing guilt and shame is a new way. I also saw yesterday that it looks to be all bound up in another..me,me,me thing.
How bad am I? I am a bigger sinner than you. I am carrying sooooo much. Etc. More self judgement and self pity (perhaps even different = special) which have been a huge part of what I consider as me.
If you were a native living in the jungle 500 years ago, would it still be considered wrong?
some events definitely not… others hmmmm perhaps not. Some events and acts are even now being normalised due to the Internet.
Before we even get to what 'self' committed these shameful deeds, ask Helen "is in the past?" "Is it possible to change what happened?"
obviously not. But I must have felt there was a need to be contrite. But to be contrite I must have to carry around with me rather than feeling I have paid my dues from carrying the burdens for so long.
Then ask her "What is the benefit of still feeling shame and guilt about it now?" (what is the first thing that comes to mind?)
The first thing is that I must remember to feel sorry I hurt/wronged/deceived/shocked people. But now I have just remembered about altruism. Hmmmmm. I also know it must be a self punishment thing. But as I type I am seeing that it’s only me that’s hurting. Feeling contrite is surely a humbling affair but it now feels quite the opposite. Like a twisted glory? Who would I be without this story… as So many masters say.
O my.

All my love helen.


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