Non self a love story

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:18 pm

Hi Floris,

took some time, quite a bumpy and divers road I am riding with highs and lows;-)
During the bumpy ride off and on confronted with the ego, the thinker with all insights, wants, frustrations and desires etc.
In the meanwhile experiences of a quite free state of mind... that of letting go... then everything seems easy, 'flowing' and feeling ok.
Still it's something that takes effort to do (.... and that's ego again)

During 'triggertime' it takes so much effort to stay out of the programs and (self) judgement. And the whole practicing with connecting with higher self/no-self just fades away then. So I feel good to great and lousy off and on.
At the same time observing what is happening, finding it fascinating how mind and body can think and feel so different in short period of times...

Note: Even my ego knows there is no self, nevertheless it is so often there, aaargghhh;-)

Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:15 am

Hi Derk,

Good to read things are shifting a bit, and things feel lighter. Enjoy!
took some time, quite a bumpy and divers road I am riding with highs and lows;-)
During the bumpy ride off and on confronted with the ego, the thinker with all insights, wants, frustrations and desires etc.
In the meanwhile experiences of a quite free state of mind... that of letting go... then everything seems easy, 'flowing' and feeling ok.
Still it's something that takes effort to do (.... and that's ego again)
I get the feel that, whenever something is pointed out, there is a regathering of the old ways of thinking there. It's not something that is done bad, just want to bring it under your attention. Is there an expectation that no-self is an experience that needs to be had? What is ego, can it be found? Is there an actual thing called ego there? Look

During 'triggertime' it takes so much effort to stay out of the programs and (self) judgement. And the whole practicing with connecting with higher self/no-self just fades away then. So I feel good to great and lousy off and on.
At the same time observing what is happening, finding it fascinating how mind and body can think and feel so different in short period of times...
Great if you get something out of that, but to let you not walk away from this place without the actual 'seeing of no self', I'm going to bring the focus only to that.
What do you think no-self is or means?

Note: Even my ego knows there is no self, nevertheless it is so often there , aaargghhh;-)
Let's break it down, so there is an ego (1), which is belonging to something (2) and it is knowing something or can know things (3). Also a self which is often there (4). Right?
Can you investigate the reality behind these 4 points? Just take each of these points into an experiential investigation and examine or explore what they are or point to. Tell me your findings.

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:25 pm

Hi Floris,
Is there an actual thing called ego there? Look/quote]
No ego can be found... only thoughts and feelings, actions, etc...
What do you think no-self is or means? /quote]
energy, our source, the creator, God, Tao, Boeddha, I AM, etc.... just 'is'.
Let's break it down, so there is an ego (1), which is belonging to something (2) and it is knowing something or can know things (3). Also a self which is often there (4). Right?
Can you investigate the reality behind these 4 points? Just take each of these points into an experiential investigation and examine or explore what they are or point to. Tell me your findings./quote]
Hmmmm.... did my research... No ego found of course. And triggers are felt depending on the meaning that is given. If there's no attachment to it, nothing happens... no meaning... no effect. Only calmness then..
Ego and knowledge, even knowledge that is learned, can be used in different ways based on the subjective meaning that is given. Again nothing can be found there as a fact.
Can it be that it is all coming from the same source? Out of nothing or nowhere? It's just there en for the ego to give meaning to or not?
If there's no attachment nothing happens, that's is really felt now... and that is what changes.
So to observe and stop when attachment happens, is what helps:-)

So far....
Have a nice weekend!
Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:30 pm

Hi Derk,
No ego can be found... only thoughts and feelings, actions, etc...
good one
energy, our source, the creator, God, Tao, Boeddha, I AM, etc.... just 'is'.
Okay, good that you write this. May I disappoint you a little by saying that what is meant by no-self on this forum is just the gradual or more sudden removal (less common) of a belief in an I or Derk? This will not (likely) result in awakening to God, source, etc.
Hmmmm.... did my research... No ego found of course.
:-)
And triggers are felt depending on the meaning that is given. If there's no attachment to it, nothing happens... no meaning... no effect. Only calmness then..
Good observations.
Ego and knowledge, even knowledge that is learned, can be used in different ways based on the subjective meaning that is given. Again nothing can be found there as a fact.
Is 'knowledge' even knowledge, or perhaps just meaningless experience, like these squiggles on a screen where meaning is given to? Would it be the same for the word 'I'? Does the sound/thought I have more meaning than O, E..?
Can it be that it is all coming from the same source? Out of nothing or nowhere? It's just there en for the ego to give meaning to or not?
Don't know honestly. Could be?..
Where is meaning without memories? And what is left of a Derk without memories? Could all Derk is, only be a bunch of memory? Give this a check.
If there's no attachment nothing happens, that's is really felt now... and that is what changes.
So to observe and stop when attachment happens, is what helps:-)
Yes this is good. What does attachment seem to be?:-)
So far....
Have a nice weekend!
Derk
Have a nice weekend too!
Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:40 pm

Hi Floris,
May I disappoint you a little by saying that what is meant by no-self on this forum is just the gradual or more sudden removal (less common) of a belief in an I or Derk? This will not (likely) result in awakening to God, source, etc.
The whole idea of Derk is changing all the time, nothing factual, indeed only based on memories, beliefs and feelings. The concept of Derk is in a major shift at the moment... thoughts and feelings changing... proof that nothing is 'true' at that level.
Development is all about letting go of the whole idea of me...
Where is meaning without memories? And what is left of a Derk without memories? Could all Derk is, only be a bunch of memory? Give this a check.
Totally true... Derk is a bunch of memories, beliefs etc a pattern... Just a concept. Nothing 'real' and changing.
What does attachment seem to be?:-)
Addiction.. conditioning.. pattern.. 'subconscious reaction'...

Floris, could it be that my true nature, energy, God is just bothered/interfered by memories, beliefs, thoughts, etc... So the harmony that is my nature is going through a filter that is causing disharmony? So if I bypass the whole storage of memories, conclusions, assumptions.. /STOP the thinking, since nothing is real there (it is just like an organ doing it's thing... popping up combinations of memories, making connections... creating thoughts, making chaos and trying to fix it with thinking again, aaaahhhh... creating more chaos... If I manage to do that maybe the whole inner dialogue will decrease... and maybe sort of vanish? And the harmony of my true nature returns... (... then what am I going to do then is the thought that pops up directly... STOP, that thought is not going to be followed by another..:-)

Going to try that:-)

Have a nice evening!
Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:03 pm

Hello Derk,

The whole idea of Derk is changing all the time, nothing factual, indeed only based on memories, beliefs and feelings. The concept of Derk is in a major shift at the moment... thoughts and feelings changing... proof that nothing is 'true' at that level.
Development is all about letting go of the whole idea of me...
Nice findings. How might the concept of Derk have been formed? That's just asking you to make up a story, but it might prove beneficial.

Totally true... Derk is a bunch of memories, beliefs etc a pattern... Just a concept. Nothing 'real' and changing.
:-)

Floris, could it be that my true nature, energy, God is just bothered/interfered by memories, beliefs, thoughts, etc... So the harmony that is my nature is going through a filter that is causing disharmony? So if I bypass the whole storage of memories, conclusions, assumptions.. /STOP the thinking, since nothing is real there (it is just like an organ doing it's thing... popping up combinations of memories, making connections... creating thoughts, making chaos and trying to fix it with thinking again, aaaahhhh... creating more chaos... If I manage to do that maybe the whole inner dialogue will decrease... and maybe sort of vanish? And the harmony of my true nature returns... (... then what am I going to do then is the thought that pops up directly... STOP, that thought is not going to be followed by another..:-)
Oh yes totally, saying that the personality and such are like a filter is a good metaphor. The less person(ality), the bigger 'the world' will be. And yes, getting all the garbage out is all what it is about.

So, let me know where you stand with this. If you take a look and don't find a Derk, person, self or the like, what do you make of that? Is there a separate self, and more importantly are you a separate self? How does it feel allowing (for the possibility, if you're not sure yet) that there isn't? Is there a seperate self which can do things, like reading or responding to this message?

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:51 pm

Hi Floris,
So, let me know where you stand with this. If you take a look and don't find a Derk, person, self or the like, what do you make of that?

It is just a bunch/chaos of memories, beliefs.. in a storage. Sort of 'storage consciousness' a briljant location mostly based on fear that 'thinks' it is necessary to survive in this world... It is chaos and tries to find solutions through thinking which makes the chaos bigger most of the time... it is vicious circle that keeps itself alive... Makes me think of einstein; you can't solve the problems in life with the same thinking that created it... something like that?;-)
Is there a separate self, and more importantly are you a separate self? How does it feel allowing (for the possibility, if you're not sure yet) that there isn't? Is there a separate self which can do things, like reading or responding to this message?
This is still a difficult one... there is a certain consciousness, a storage of memories, beliefs, that is unique, able to read and respond... question is whether it can be personalized as a self. I am positive that it disturbes the harmony that is our true nature ... and to be honest my whole development is about letting go of a self as a solution of being unhappy focussing on living a full potential:-)
So let's just decide there's no me, no self for nobody... then true nature, the creator, can do its work again.... yessss
Feels good.

Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:12 pm

Hello Derk,
This is still a difficult one... there is a certain consciousness, a storage of memories, beliefs, that is unique, able to read and respond... question is whether it can be personalized as a self. I am positive that it disturbes the harmony that is our true nature ... and to be honest my whole development is about letting go of a self as a solution of being unhappy focussing on living a full potential:-)
So let's just decide there's no me, no self for nobody... then true nature, the creator, can do its work again.... yessss
Feels good.
Okay how about taking a little in-between step: do you experience a (seperate) self, and a seperate self which can do, perceive and think? Experience is seeing, hearing, thinking etc. So another way of asking it is; is there a (seperate) self in seeing, thinking, feeling or hearing (neglecting smelling and tasting here)?

If you would try pointing to the self, where does the finger point to?
there is a certain consciousness, a storage of memories, beliefs, that is unique, able to read and respond...
We're getting closer here, let's push a little further. It's true that there is e.g. the experience we call reading, but can something be found doing it, or can 'we' only report that there is the reading(experience) happening?

So let's just decide there's no me, no self for nobody... then true nature, the creator, can do its work again.... yessss
Feels good.
If there is no self, than how have things been happening the whole time already? :-)

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:39 pm

Hi Floris,

I feel great. Let the harmonious energy of "the source" go through.....
There's no self, no interrupter, no thinker that attaches...
Okay how about taking a little in-between step: do you experience a (seperate) self, and a seperate self which can do, perceive and think? Experience is seeing, hearing, thinking etc. So another way of asking it is; is there a (seperate) self in seeing, thinking, feeling or hearing (neglecting smelling and tasting here)?
There's a thinker that claims to see something different... When that thinker gets out... thinking goes on.. and the negative part is gone... harmony stays:-)

That feels free!
If you would try pointing to the self, where does the finger point to?
Funny... if I point to myself I touch my chest. My hart area. I am not tapping on my head. So what ever the self may be it is not in my head;-) And that is the place where the thinking happens... where the whole idea of me/I/self lives..

So.. there's no self.
There's a higher self though/energy/god... a flow of life.
If there is no self, than how have things been happening the whole time already? :-)
It's nature... it's God... it's creation... you and I are just a fraction of that whole like a drop of the ocean. With all others we just add up to be the sea.... or the world we live in...

Have a nice evening!!!
Derk

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:19 pm

Hi Derk,

Sorry, I forgot to reply earlier.

Just a note; beliefs, theories, convictions, conclusions and such can be useful at times. But often don't do much for us, they do not tend to help to shift things as we would like, and don't tend to help us discover more. It's perfectly fine to just not know how what things are or how things work.

There's a thinker that claims to see something different... When that thinker gets out... thinking goes on.. and the negative part is gone... harmony stays:-)
Alright:-) What is meant here by the 'thinker'? and do you mean that a seperate self is experienced? If so, where, what part?

Funny... if I point to myself I touch my chest. My hart area. I am not tapping on my head. So what ever the self may be it is not in my head;-) And that is the place where the thinking happens... where the whole idea of me/I/self lives..
Yes good. So why does the idea of me/I/self live in the head, where thinking happens?
And why point to the chest? Is it because there is a feeling/sense that might be labelled 'sense of self'? Does that sense have more significance than any other feeling?
Btw, does the chest belong to anything, such that it is my chest or could it just be a chest?

So.. there's no self.
There's a higher self though/energy/god... a flow of life.
So is there a self that could be gone, or lost or such? So.. when someone talks about 'self', what is that, if anything?

Floris

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:36 pm

Hi Derk,

Are you still having motivation to continue?:-)

Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:42 am

Hi Floris,
I do! At this moment life is so hectic.
Just divorced, bought a new house and now I am in the middle of renovating the house, while the kids are with me. Work goes on also:-)
Love it, though little time to do everything.... managing okay and feeling good though.
Still doing the work most of the time, questioning the non self.
To respond your mail I want to have the time/rest.. is it okay that I come back to you the moment I feel the rest to do so?
Thank you... :-)
Derk

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:43 am

And Floris.. just one last question.. where do you come from? Are you dutch since Floris is quite a dutch name?;-)

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Florisness
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Florisness » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:20 pm

Hi Derk!
I do! At this moment life is so hectic.
Just divorced, bought a new house and now I am in the middle of renovating the house, while the kids are with me. Work goes on also:-)
Love it, though little time to do everything.... managing okay and feeling good though.
Still doing the work most of the time, questioning the non self.
To respond your mail I want to have the time/rest.. is it okay that I come back to you the moment I feel the rest to do so?
Ah yes, I can imagine that being a busy time. Yes take all the time you want, and sometimes forgetting about the whole thing for some days or longer can be beneficial too.

where do you come from? Are you dutch since Floris is quite a dutch name?;-)
Yes I'm Dutch, I actually didn't know that Floris was quite a Dutch name ;-) Where are you from?

Have a good time!
Floris

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Derk72
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Re: Non self a love story

Postby Derk72 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:40 am

Goodmorning Floris,

Just moved from Huizen to Bussum;-)

Dank voor mailwisseling tot op heden. Het hele principe van non-self houdt me dagelijks bezig.
Vond het leuk om het in het engels te doen, andere manier van uitdrukken. Wellicht nu een idee om op het Nederlands over te gaan. Ook interessant in de nuance/het detail. Ook okay voor jou?
Non birth, non death, non self... non dualism.
Yes good. So why does the idea of me/I/self live in the head, where thinking happens?
And why point to the chest? Is it because there is a feeling/sense that might be labelled 'sense of self'? Does that sense have more significance than any other feeling?
Btw, does the chest belong to anything, such that it is my chest or could it just be a chest?
Wat ik hiermee bedoelde is het verschil tussen de levensenergie en de denker gekoppeld aan het concept zelf / de denker.
Als ik naar mijzelf verwijs, dit ben ik, dan tik ik nooit op mijn hoofd en wel op mijn hart/borst. Dat zie ik dan even als het centrum van de universele levensenergie/God/Boeddha etc.... koppeling aan het grotere geheel. Merk dat ik veel heb aan het ademen door mijn hart en het volgen daarvan. Daardoor wordt het denken minder etc..... voelt goed. Het is een oefening die ik veel doe, koppelen aan het grotere geheel. Mee met de stroom.. opheffen van mezelf als afgescheiden entiteit. Toepassen van non self etcetera.

Herken jij dit of doe jij dit anders?

Mooie dag!
Derk


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