WhereAmI

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Minoleo
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WhereAmI

Postby Minoleo » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:17 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I have been reading Gateless Gatecrashers and understand that this is not some other spiritual trend, but guidance to see through that illusion of "I" where have been living all our life. I understand that this is not some method to enlightment, but real undress of the illusion of separate self/I/me.

What are you looking for at LU?
At firs I have to tell that writing here and asking guidance in english is A big step to me. (Fear of not to be understood, fear of I don't understand, fear of writing something stupid...) So I was quite sure I will manage by myself, reading Gateless Gatecrashers and asking those questions myself. I also feel that much has happened already. Life is different but the same. I can't find me/I and right now there is this feeling like being in some kind of intermediate state. There is feeling of no-self but familiarity of an "I" is still there, hanging on in thoughts. Is this it? Is this liberation? Because I have these question, I'm pretty sure that there is still something to look.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Real, plain realisation of no-self, truth, liberation, what ever it is. That after conversation there is no doubt anymore no uncertainty, hesitation. That the conversation reveals the spots where all that lies withing. I don't expect life to change, only living a life freely. I've always thought that the most important thing in life, the meaning of life, is to live it fully. But there is no-one to live it fully. What that means anyway? It is just happening. Is there sill a place where I haven't searched yet.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was 8 years in one spritual school where we were teached about chakras, soul, God, universe, energies and so on. We were said that there is no me, everything is one, but on the other hand also teached that we are really special ones, chosen individuals, to save the world and our teacher is a Prophet. I believed it until the curtain opened. There was lot of conflicts between said and teached, said and done. That fed the ego, kept us/me feeling that I am extra special. What I learned there is that mind is very easily manipulated and we believe very odd things if we trust to someone enough. I've also read some books of Ekchart Tolle, Gary Renard, half a book of Jed, Anthony De Mello and so on. I've meditated, studied how ego works... Now the only thing I'm doing is reading Gateless Gatecrashers. No meditation, no other books, no groups...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Andrei
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Andrei » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:16 pm

Hi Minoleo,

And welcome to LU. I would be happy to help you with your inquiry.

There is feeling of no-self but familiarity of an "I" is still there, hanging on in thoughts. Is this it? Is this liberation? Because I have these question, I'm pretty sure that there is still something to look.
Well lets see. Can you pick and choose a thought right now?

What else is there which might seem personal?



Andrei

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Minoleo
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Minoleo » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:02 am

Hi Andrei!

Thank you for guiding me :)
I'm now at work, but can't wait for answering after work. So here is what I found at the first.

"Well lets see. Can you pick and choose a thought right now?"

When tried to do that, I didn't get anything, no thoughts, just emptynes BUT at the same time constant flow of commentary or narration in head. Like "oh my, no thoughts, nothing, ok create a thought.. can't do that.. nothing coming up.." and so on. It made me laugh :D Flow of thoughts of now thoughts :D
So I can not pick and choose a thought. They just come and go. I can't control them anyway. They are slippery like a wet soap.

"What else is there which might seem personal?"

Well... there is a lot that seems personal.. "my" life, "my" kids, "my" work, "my" feelings, body... you name it. Although I know they are not. I don't own them. Even if there would be an "I" it would not own them. It's easier to understand that for example kids are not mine, but feelings... they seems to be personal. Rising from personal experience.. so experience seems to be personal too.

Love, Minoleo

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Andrei
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Andrei » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:30 am

It's easier to understand that for example kids are not mine, but feelings... they seems to be personal.
Ok, let's take feelings.
Look in DE. (You read the book so you probably already know how DE works. If not, let me know and we can talk about it.) Break them in little pieces, or go to their source. What are they? And, what is it that makes them "yours"?

Rising from personal experience.. so experience seems to be personal too.
Do you mean it as there's a "self" that experiences stuff? Or a "self" that is aware of the stuff happening? Where would this "self" be located?

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Minoleo
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Minoleo » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:55 pm

Hi,

"Ok, let's take feelings.
Look in DE. (You read the book so you probably already know how DE works. If not, let me know and we can talk about it.) Break them in little pieces, or go to their source. What are they? And, what is it that makes them "yours"?"

This is tough. "Break them in little pieces" I'm not sure if I understood right, but here is what I got until now.
First I tried to figure out what feelings to break. Do I have to wait until I feel something special, different or what? Fear? Anger? Joy? Then I thought weather we are talking about sensations or emotion or what? (Language problem 😄) I was walking from train to home and word cold came up. Feeling cold. What is it? Where does It come from? Who does It? What I found was It is a sensation happening in the body. Just a sensation. I can not start it nor stop It. Same with all the other feelings. They are happening. I have no control over them. Where does feeling come from, I have no idea. There is no startin point, no place where It comes. It just comes. No one does It. And right after sensation comes thoughts, commentary.
I thought emotions too. Can I choose emotions? No I can't. Can I own them? No, they are available to eveyone 😄 So nothing makes them "mine".

"Do you mean it as there's a "self" that experiences stuff? Or a "self" that is aware of the stuff happening? Where would this "self" be located?"

At First I meant "self" experiencing stuff. "I" experiencing "my" life on "my own way" Ha ha :D. Then I wondered if I'm thinking that I and individuality is the same? Is there still individuality after realising there is no I?
Location of "self"... if everything is taken away (body, sensation, thoughts, hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling) what is left? Nothing! There should be something if "I/self" is real. There is no place or location for "self". It is empty. I have to go to sleep with this now... this nothingness..

Hugs, Minoleo

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Andrei
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Andrei » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:01 am

Hi Minoleo,
Do I have to wait until I feel something special, different or what? Fear? Anger? Joy? Then I thought weather we are talking about sensations or emotion or what?
You can always try to recreate "pesky" emotions if you like. Just think about a scenario where you'd normally feel fear or sadness or whatever, and let that emotion permeate your body. In the end it's just sensations, they can't harm you. They are just a red flag that could announce a hidden belief, something you need to work on.
(Ofc, if you hike in the mountains and see a bear - the fear you sense might be quite natural lol)

As for what they all mean, I'd say feelings (aka emotions) - sadness, fear, love - are a group/bunch of sensations while sensations are the original input - the tension - that comes before labelling as "pain", or "pleasure", or whatever else. But that's just how I see them.

So, in conclusion, emotions/feelings and sensation just happen independently? Any doubts there?
Then what happens if something "feels" personal? Is there anything that still feels "personal"?

This is tough. "Break them in little pieces" I'm not sure if I understood right, but here is what I got until now.
Whenever you're going trough a situation that seems insurmountable and you can't figure it out, it would help if you were to go to its basics. Take "fear" for instance. If you go to its roots you'll notice it's a sensation that happens somewhere inside your body. (I actually noticed that, fear for different things - your life, your status, etc. - can trigger sensations in different parts of your body, and always happen in those parts of the body. Weird!)

I have to go to sleep with this now... this nothingness..
Is there pleasure and comfort in that feeling? Or do you feel any "tightness"?


So no "self" experiencing stuff or being aware of stuff? Is it crystal clear?

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Minoleo
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Minoleo » Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:37 am

Hi Andrei,

A new day after a very busy night :D. I saw dream(s) where I was kind of left out or something. I don't remember exactly but that was the main feeling. So the answer to the question of nothingness:

"Is there pleasure and comfort in that feeling? Or do you feel any "tightness"?"

When I went to bed, there was only the feeling of emptyness, like nothing there. No pleasure, no tightness, just beeing there in nothing, in that moment. I can not say it was good nor bad, no labeling. And then I fell to sleep.

"So, in conclusion, emotions/feelings and sensation just happen independently? Any doubts there?
Then what happens if something "feels" personal? Is there anything that still feels "personal"?"


Natural fear of a bear :) Good One! It is funny to notice how we label every feeling. For example that feeling cold.. it is a sensation in the body. Certain kind of a sensation that I have labelled cold. Sometimes it appears in a cold or chilly weather, but sometimes in fever, sometimes in a warm room, sometimes there is no" noticeable reason" why "I feel cold". So it is only sensation in the body and with no labelling there might be more information in that sensation. More to look before I start warming up not to feel cold. I thought about our cat, how she is in the forest, cathing mouses. She is aware all the time, sensing, hearing, watching.. She doesn't just go and look everywhere or think about where the mouses could hide. She just moves, stays still, sensing all the time, in that moment and reacting to the senses. It is really interesting to watch. "Zen moment" with the cat. Seems that thoughts are the cause of the problems in human life :D, believing thoughts.
Yes, feelings/emotions/sensations just happen independently. No doubts there.
What happens if something feels personal? ...Protection happens. And what still feels personal.... thoughts? Shame?

"So no "self" experiencing stuff or being aware of stuff? Is it crystal clear?"

It is becoming clearer all the time :) What is self anyway? It can be nothing or everything, but it is not some separate entity "I/me" that owns this "my" life and maneuvers it or decides what's going to happen. Maybe it is the awareness, life itself, wholeness,unity.. but the separate self not. So in the meaning I think self, it doesn't exist, nowhere to find it.
Life is flowing on it's own.

Minoleo

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Andrei
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Andrei » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:57 am

Seems that thoughts are the cause of the problems in human life :D, believing thoughts.
That's it. Thoughts are a great tool to have. They make the difference between us and the rest of the animals. Problem is when the thoughts start to become the master.

And what still feels personal.... thoughts? Shame?
Do thoughts still feel personal even if you don't create them?

What about shame? Ashamed of what? You need to give me more material to work with here :D

What is self anyway? It can be nothing or everything, but it is not some separate entity "I/me" that owns this "my" life and maneuvers it or decides what's going to happen. Maybe it is the awareness, life itself, wholeness,unity.. but the separate self not. So in the meaning I think self, it doesn't exist, nowhere to find it.
Are there several types of "selves"? "Individual self", "Higher self", "Life itself"? Look in DE, into what you can s e e to exist.

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Minoleo
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Minoleo » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:24 am

Hi Andrei!

Thank you for pushin me to the edge :) Tough day yesterday..

Do thoughts still feel personal even if you don't create them?


When you put it that way, nope! :D I tried to create a tought yesterday. I told to myself "Create a thought"... what happened was confusing because nothing happened, zero, just silence, not a single thought for a second. Nothing there. I tried again and same happened. At first I felt it's difficult to create a thought but then realization there is no-one inside of me who could create a thought :D. "I" was empty :D

What about shame? Ashamed of what? You need to give me more material to work with here :D


For this I tried to think material, but it came in the evening due to last question..

Are there several types of "selves"? "Individual self", "Higher self", "Life itself"? Look in DE, into what you can s e e to exist.


This was hard and I feel I didn't manage. I tried to find something. It was like hacking a head to the wall. Frustration. I really couln't find or feel anything not even the lack of self. I expected to feel something, something like "oh now I see it, wow!". What I found was what is, body, sensations, feelings, seeing what I see when I have my eyes open, voices, thoughts, smell. But no big bang! Feels like desperately trying to catch the air. So need some more instructions how to look.
When I was walking to the train this morning I could have use some bad language realizing how absurd this is.. "I" (which doesn't exist) am searching for "self" that doesn't exist or proof of it's nonexistence! So how can I find that something that doesn't exist doesn't exist? (bad language here) What I am expecting to find is nothing and it feels nothing. So "I" am dissapointed to "me". Blaah!
And here comes the shame. Ashamed of not understand correctly or not doing things right, sometimes ashamed of saying something "stupid" or saying things the way that I'm not beeing understood. That feels personal.

Right now I feel like beeing in rat race or treadmill, getting nowhere.

Minoleo

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Minoleo
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Minoleo » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:26 am

Sorry about the green color of the text :D :D I was testing a little :D

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Andrei
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Andrei » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:47 am

Sorry about the green color of the text :D :D I was testing a little :D
Yeah, thank god I can select the text and actually understand something :D

I told to myself "Create a thought"... what happened was confusing because nothing happened, zero, just silence, not a single thought for a second.
Good. Moving on then. If at any time you feel there is smth not clear or smth you'd rather talk some more let me know.

This was hard and I feel I didn't manage. I tried to find something. It was like hacking a head to the wall. Frustration. I really couln't find or feel anything not even the lack of self.
Could it be that maybe there is nothing to find?

I expected to feel something, something like "oh now I see it, wow!". What I found was what is, body, sensations, feelings, seeing what I see when I have my eyes open, voices, thoughts, smell. But no big bang!
Well, what do you expect? A ladder coming down from heaven welcoming you to paradise? The illusion of the self is a belief, just like many others. Once you see it nothing changes but how you relate to the world.

Or, do you have expectations regarding "liberation"? Because they might hinder your efforts. If you do, do let me know so we can talk about it.

"I" (which doesn't exist) am searching for "self" that doesn't exist or proof of it's nonexistence! So how can I find that something that doesn't exist doesn't exist?
That's a good question actually. It's easy to get to the "there is no self" conclusion by the use of logic. However, a shift has to happen, and this logical understanding has to become living reality. And when that shift happens, you will know (if the shift hasn't happen already in your case), things will get lighter.

This frantic search of yours looks like happening in the mind because it's the mind that needs security and reassurance and needs to feel like it's achieved something, getting somewhere.
That's why we use DE. We simply look. Is there something there?
- No? Good.
- Yes? Well, what is it then?
See, you need to relax. Let the DE take over you and let seeing start to happen :)

Makes sense?

And here comes the shame. Ashamed of not understand correctly or not doing things right, sometimes ashamed of saying something "stupid" or saying things the way that I'm not beeing understood. That feels personal.
Just going to tickle your "self" a bit and say you're far from stupid. You wouldn't have gotten this far if you were. So don't be afraid of saying anything relevant to your inquiry. This is your space.

Now, I want you to bring this shame-episode back in your awareness. I actually want you to feel ashamed of everything that triggers you. After you feel it clearly, look at it and see what it is made of. Is it a thought or a sensations or a bunch of things? And after you figure that out, ask yourself: Are they "mine" or do they simply happen? Am "I" ashamed (or afraid, or intelligent, or stupid, or whatever you can think of) or does shame/fear/intelligence simply happen?

Right now I feel like beeing in rat race or treadmill, getting nowhere.
Whenever that happens, it's a clear sign you left DE and entered the realm of the mind. So relax. Go back to seeing. If you're tired, take a break. There's nowhere to go and nothing to get.

Just like you said... everything and nothing.

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Minoleo
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Minoleo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:05 am

Hi,
Could it be that maybe there is nothing to find?
Yes, that's how it is :D Searching something that doesn't exist and expecting something else than nothing to be found is kind of hilarious :D :D :D Oh, my mind, how peculiar it is :D
Well, what do you expect? A ladder coming down from heaven welcoming you to paradise? The illusion of the self is a belief, just like many others. Once you see it nothing changes but how you relate to the world.
Or, do you have expectations regarding "liberation"? Because they might hinder your efforts. If you do, do let me know so we can talk about it.
I thought I didn't expect any "great and awesome" to happen. But the expectations were hidden somewhere and during this inquiry they seem to pop up. So I have to admit that somewhere deep inside my mind I expected some huge feeling to come, choir to sing :D like I found a basket of gold. But how does finding nothing feel? Nothing! And that's it :D I don't expect life to change but seeing life has already shifted significantly. I feel that expectations were attached more to the moment of realizing there is no self. And have I already realized it? Yes, I have. Fully aware of that...? Lets still continue :)
This frantic search of yours looks like happening in the mind because it's the mind that needs security and reassurance and needs to feel like it's achieved something, getting somewhere.
That's why we use DE. We simply look. Is there something there?
- No? Good.
- Yes? Well, what is it then?
See, you need to relax. Let the DE take over you and let seeing start to happen :)

Makes sense?
Yep! It's funny, but I had a two days light headache. I have noticed that every time I'm too much in the head/mind, trying fanatically understand something, I get headache. And when I let it be/relax/let go/give in, headache goes away. It faded away right after reading your post and relaxing. Believing thoughts is the problem :/. Makes sense? YES!
Now, I want you to bring this shame-episode back in your awareness. I actually want you to feel ashamed of everything that triggers you. After you feel it clearly, look at it and see what it is made of. Is it a thought or a sensations or a bunch of things? And after you figure that out, ask yourself: Are they "mine" or do they simply happen? Am "I" ashamed (or afraid, or intelligent, or stupid, or whatever you can think of) or does shame/fear/intelligence simply happen?
This I will continue to work with.. But what I felt going back to remembering/feeling one situation a couple of years ago when I tried to be funny playing with English word and our friends (visiting us then) did't get it. Silence. And then uncomfortable smile. I can't describe what I first felt... maybe like an emptying balloon and then thoughts! I thought I was mistaken about what that word meant in our language and the joke was then silly. Rest of the evening I felt stupid, like all the others were much more intelligent and wiser than me (and that is what I had thought about them for years). Didn't feel good at all and of course tried to hide it. When I checked the meaning of the word, it was just right, they just didn't get my joke :D Well, those friends haven't visited us after that :D :D :D Maybe it was supposed to be so and that's fine.
It (shame) is made of sensation and thoughts and in this case first sensation and then thoughts labeling it. And no, they are not "mine", just happening. I will continue to work with this, just for curiosity what comes up. What is "feeling stupid" anyway :D How is it if it's just a sensation without labelin? Maybe not so unpleasant at all?
Whenever that happens, it's a clear sign you left DE and entered the realm of the mind. So relax. Go back to seeing. If you're tired, take a break. There's nowhere to go and nothing to get.
Right now I feel more relaxed, more free. Calm would be good word to describe just now. And there is only just now. (And tonight the crayfish party :D) Thank you!

Minoleo

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Andrei
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Andrei » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:24 am

I feel that expectations were attached more to the moment of realizing there is no self. And have I already realized it? Yes, I have. Fully aware of that...?
And what would the answer be to that last one? You can end it here and now. This is not a point A to point B journey. Is there anything that you feel hinders full realization?

It (shame) is made of sensation and thoughts and in this case first sensation and then thoughts labeling it. And no, they are not "mine", just happening. I will continue to work with this, just for curiosity what comes up. What is "feeling stupid" anyway :D How is it if it's just a sensation without labelin? Maybe not so unpleasant at all?
How about feeling compassion and even love for all your feelings, including those of shame? Do you see yourself doing that? Are they not perfect just the way they are? Is there anything in life not perfect?

Do you feel any hindrance at the thought of accepting all your "negative" feelings/opinions/actions as just things doing their job?

-----
Let's talk about choices for a bit. Have you ever chosen anything? Was telling that joke, your friends didn't get, a choice of yours or did it just happen?

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Minoleo
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Minoleo » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:37 pm

Let's talk about choices for a bit. Have you ever chosen anything? Was telling that joke, your friends didn't get, a choice of yours or did it just happen
?

This nailed it! I'm at work, just read your post and crying and laughing at the same time. NO I HAVE NOT! It (the joke) just happened, popped out of my mouth :D Everything is just happening. I will post more tomorrow (or when stop crying and lauching).

Hugs!

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Andrei
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Re: WhereAmI

Postby Andrei » Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:51 pm

Try not to get fired though. I take no responsibility. Not like there is anything to be responsible, but still :D


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