All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

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Lin
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All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:42 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that LU helps me understand that there is no inherent self and that there is just experiences happening. In the experience of hearing, there is just hearing that happens. The same goes for every sensory organs. I wlso know that the brains workings are habitual and that it can be hard to do creativ thinking outside the habitual patterns.

What are you looking for at LU?
I know that there are just feelings as in bodily sensations ( vedana) and the rest we tend to add in form of thoughts and emotions (craving prapancha) there is a gap in between, where I train myself to stay. I guess that to really realise and experience the no self would solv the problem, or at least make it much easier. I need help to see this more clearly. I need guidance.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I just expect to get a deepe understanding and experience of No-self, by the guidance. I realise that I have to do the thinking by myself. But sometimes it is easier for someone else to se patterns than if you sit in the middle of the soup so to speak.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been practicing buddhism within Triratna and the Tibetan tradition for six years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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ratnapani
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby ratnapani » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:30 pm

Hi Lin,

I've read your preamble and would love to work with you, we have the same vocabulary which would help.

Best Wishes,
Ratnapani

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:01 pm

Hi Ratnapani
That sounds great! I'm totally new to this kind of forum so
It might take some time to press the right buttons. English is not my first language. But I think I'm good enough. How do we proceed? Do we write mail or does the discussions stay here in the forum?
Looking forward to this :)
Kind regards
Lin

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ratnapani
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby ratnapani » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:56 pm

Hi Lin,

Good to hear from you. The discussions stay on the forum, have you clicked on the spanner/wrench symbol at the bottom and clicked subscribe so as to get email notification of my posts ?

Do read, if you haven't already, all the guidelines and disclaimers on the gate and check out the 'quote' method. I should provide links but it's late and I'm not so good at pressing the right buttons! Let me know if you have any problems though.

I didn't detect that English is not your first language so we'll probably be just fine, let me know if I use idioms you're not familiar with. I'm in the UK so are we in about the same time zone ?

I will ask a lot of questions and ask you to do various exercises and I hope you will answer from your direct and actual experience as honestly as you can. From your introduction it is clear that you want to see and to 'know' so I needn't really mention not digressing into abstractions and theory.(hooray).

Please let me know if this is all ok with you.

Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.

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ratnapani
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby ratnapani » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:01 pm

Hello again,

One more rather vital thing - it is best if we post every day to maintain the impetus of looking. If for any reason this is not possible we should let the other know.
Be warned, once submitted a post cannot be edited !
x

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:00 am

Hi again Ratnapani
I think I have read most of the institutions through. Thanks for letting ne know. Yes I get e-mails when you post something. I figur out the different functions meanwhile.
Is there anything more before we start. Good idea to inform the other if there will be a longer paus between posts.
I think that I am ready :)
Best wishes
Lin

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ratnapani
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby ratnapani » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:20 am

Hi Lin,
If you think you are ready, let us begin. Firstly do relax and when looking at experience look with an attitude of kindness, allow the heart to look.
I understand that LU helps me understand that there is no inherent self and that there is just experiences happening. In the experience of hearing, there is just hearing that happens. The same goes for every sensory organs.
Great, that is just how things are. You already 'understand' this so what we have to do is to get you to 'see' it.
'You' can't 'do' this, insight is discontinuous from ordinary mental activity.
Samatha meditation is good preparation for seeing no self and can have the same characteristics but I will ask questions and we will do little exercises to 'let the truth in'.

I know that there are just feelings as in bodily sensations ( vedana) and the rest we tend to add in form of thoughts and emotions (craving prapancha) there is a gap in between, where I train myself to stay. I guess that to really realise and experience the no self would solv the problem, or at least make it much easier.
Gosh, working in 'the gap' already, addressing desire and ill will. That's great and should help this enquiry but knowing there is no you in this gap is fundamental. It does make it easier to work in that way but there are no problems to be solved - there are no problems, just what is happening and looking at that at whatever 'level' you are working.

I realise that I have to do the thinking by myself. But sometimes it is easier for someone else to se patterns than if you sit in the middle of the soup so to speak.
I will certainly question any patterns, assumptions or confusions that I see in the soup but please don't think ! just look at your experience.
To this end it is often recommended to not read Dharma (in your case) books or watch 'spiritual' videos while engaged in this enquiry so outside ideas do not colour your direct experience.

If you are willing please try my favourite first exercise !

Sitting quietly somewhere, become aware of the six senses, seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling and mind.

Focusing on sight say to yourself 'I am seeing -a table, wall, lamp' whatever it is
Then with sound 'I am hearing - traffic, the fridge' or whatever.
'I am touching - the floor, cushion, chair' as occurs.
Smell and taste are obviously subtler and we'll see how you get on with 'I am thinking...'

Then do just the same without the 'I'

'Seeing table' etc
'Hearing a dog..'

You know the 'answer' and have no doubt 'been there' but it might be useful to focus on looking at this basic experience as a 'looking' exercise.

Let me know how you get on please.

Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:33 am

I pressed a button an ther was all your reflections on my starting post. I found the excercise. I will try it and no dharmabooks and no thinking. I will let you know.

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:26 pm

By the way, we are having some kind of midsommer feast today so I'll start the exercises to day and let you know tomorrow.
:)
Lin

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:01 pm

Hi again Ratnapani
Thank you for waiting.
I have sat with the exercise you suggested.
When it comes to seeing, hearing, touching smelling and tasting, there is no problem to separate the experience from the one who experensing it. The same goes for the quiet mind. There is just mind-events happening. When I'm working with the mind and when I add the "I" as in "I am thinking" there is a sense of superiority, a sense of controll. "I am actively thinking, so therefore I controll the thinking" I realised that in this case I also added conceptual language. The "I"comes with the conseptual language. I couldn't experience any other differences.

With metta
Lin

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:39 pm

Thinking about it, as long as smell and taste are neutral it is much esier than if it's repulsive. If it's repulsive it becomes personal in a totally different way, with a much stronger RE-action to it.
:)
Lin

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ratnapani
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby ratnapani » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:48 pm

Hi Lin,
Good to hear from you, I must say you have puzzled me !
In your intro you said,
there is just experiences happening. In the experience of hearing, there is just hearing that happens. The same goes for every sensory organs.
And now you say,
When it comes to seeing, hearing, touching smelling and tasting, there is no problem to separate the experience from the one who experensing it
I hope the difference isn't in just language but who is this one experiencing the experience ? Where is she situated? Whereabouts in the body is this experiencer located ?

And then,
The same goes for the quiet mind. There is just mind-events happening. When I'm working with the mind and when I add the "I" as in "I am thinking" there is a sense of superiority, a sense of controll.
If you start with the 'I am sensing ' part and then drop the 'I' does a sense of a self in control drop ?
Thought and actively thinking and being in control of thought is a whole area of exploration which I expect we'll come to.

Meanwhile unpleasant vedana certainly does expose the 'I' illusion that says 'I shouldn't be subject to anything unpleasant'!
(and I will spend my whole life trying to make things as I want them!)

Your post is so brief it is not easy to get a feel for how you are 'looking'. I don't mind detail, you won't bore me!
If you are short of time a full post less often is fine - we can't hurry this.

Best Wishes,
Ratnapani.

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:22 pm

Hi Ratnapani
I guess it is a matter of communicating in a new way (I hope). As for the first two quotes, the "I" here is refering to awareness of sensing. The brain(I guess) is registrating touch, smell and so on, in which awareness is happening. And it is in this case, this Rupa that register the awareness.

The third quote:
The sentence "I am sensing", kind of slips off what is happening. It feels "exaggerated". If I scratch "my" (as in this rupa) arm, it feels more accurate to just be aware of sensing scratching...(recognising this sensing as scratching).

How do I "look/examine":
I try to see if there is a new feeling tone added or dropped away, while thinking the different sentences with and without the word "I", And if nothing happens, then the event registers as "just awareness", and has nothing to do with the sence of an "I". That is how I figured out, that it must have to do with the conceptual thinking or language. Even though I know that there is just sensory events happening, even emotions happening, it feels like the consept of an "I" is interfering. That is what I ment by the quiet mind versus the mind hooked. The "I" kind of takes it personal if hooked. And there is awareness on top of that.

It is hard to see if I'm just making new thought-constructions. I probably am. How do I get around that, in case of. I am overthinking and that complicates things, I guess.
All compounded things are constructions. And as the notion of an "I also is dependent on a composition, of this rupa, it too, has to be a construction, and therefore empty.
I have no idea of where this is going...but hopefully in the right direction.

Best wishes
Lin

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:28 pm

There is just awareness...

and change

Lin

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Lin
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Re: All your experiences are but a manifestation of mind.

Postby Lin » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:00 pm

Hi Ratnapani
Sorry for the short message, without an explanation of the way of thinking to come to this conclusion. It was late and it felt like the conclusion was in a way fragile. Here comes the comments.
After processing some of my thoughts from the last paragraf in my post from yesterday. It suddenly became clear that there is no need for the separation of thoughts and thinker, the "I" separated from the rest. I suddenly realised that all of it is awareness. Awareness of all. Awareness of the space that it all happens into. Just awareness, simple as that! I don't know how that happend but suddenly the point of understanding just turned around. From a narrown view of sorting things and thoughts to beyond the notion of an "I" where all phenomena became included in the awareness. I think that "The emptyness of compounded phenomena" helped. Before this view, the thinking was not included. It was a poin of view where the "I" still tryed to sort things out without including it self. Maybe I am on to something very important....? It feels good anyway. It feels openminded and calmer then before.
Best wishes
Lin


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