No Self Anywhere, Ever

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John DeLight
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No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby John DeLight » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:07 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
"There is no real, inherent self" means that each individuation of the One which is All-That-Is is a fractal-holographic form of that Singularity. The consensus reality that we are each have a separate self is a conditioned superimposition upon a natural, spontaneous flow of Life experiencing and expressing itself to life as and through us. This conditioning attributes an authority and a control which do not actually, ever exist and, which obscures the actual nature of the way things are.

I have understood this intellectually for a long time. Over the week since I found the LU site, I have ordered and read the book and rather thoroughly gone through the "Start Here" page on the site, writing in detail my answers to all the questions. As I was working through sections 5 & 6 yesterday, it became clear to me that there is no experiencer separate from experience, no thinker separate from the flow of thought, no typer separate from the flow of responding to the question...I am very grateful but a little shakey in this.

I want to work with a guide to verify this shift and then have support for the "falling away" and the "falling into place" phase of this.

What are you looking for at LU?
I hope to either confirm what appears to have happened here already or ferret out any sneaky ego tricks and resolve them in the truth. Beyond this, I want to have support for the next phase of the process. Beyond that, I want to help others become free or rather, recognize their innate freedom.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be guided beyond any hidden beliefs, any intellectual and/or spiritualized concepts and into the direct experience of what is actually true. I expect to get a simple clarity and thereafter know, without any doubt seeming believable, that the is no self and there never was. I expect to know that the terms, "I, me and my" are mere labels, which arise as part of the thought process and they point to the absence experienced at the core of awareness being. I expect to be able to use these terms in a conventional way and never for an instant actually return to believing in this mythical separate self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am 67 years old. I have been an eclectic spiritual seeker since I was 17. The last 25 years, I have been engaged primarily with Advaita Vedanta (mostly Ramana & Nisargatata and their lineages) and Dzogchen (both Bon and Buddhist lineages).

On a scale from 1 to 10, (10 being most ready) how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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forgetmenot
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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:29 am

Hi John,

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the illusion of the ‘separate self’. I can only point the way but you have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides and not teachers. If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
As I was working through sections 5 & 6 yesterday, it became clear to me that there is no experiencer separate from experience, no thinker separate from the flow of thought, no typer separate from the flow of responding to the question...I am very grateful but a little shakey in this.

I want to work with a guide to verify this shift and then have support for the "falling away" and the "falling into place" phase of this.
Wonderful, however are you willing to put that aside and just be willing to LOOK at what is being pointed at to ensure clear ‘seeing’?

What are you looking for at LU?
I hope to either confirm what appears to have happened here already or ferret out any sneaky ego tricks and resolve them in the truth. Beyond this, I want to have support for the next phase of the process. Beyond that, I want to help others become free or rather, recognize their innate freedom.
There is no such thing as an ego. That still represents an idea that there is something separate in THIS. There is no separation of any kind and ego is just a thought construct and thought knows nothing. There is nothing hidden and everything is known. But yes, this exploration is about looking at thoughts/beliefs and seeing through them, to see what actually is.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be guided beyond any hidden beliefs, any intellectual and/or spiritualized concepts and into the direct experience of what is actually true. I expect to get a simple clarity and thereafter know, without any doubt seeming believable, that the is no self and there never was. I expect to know that the terms, "I, me and my" are mere labels, which arise as part of the thought process and they point to the absence experienced at the core of awareness being. I expect to be able to use these terms in a conventional way and never for an instant actually return to believing in this mythical separate self.
There is no ‘you’ who is thinking or controlling what thoughts appear, so if doubt or confusion appear, then that is what appearing, but actual experience can never be doubted or confused. Thoughts will appear about confusion and doubt but there is no one/no thing that can be in doubt or confused about what actual experience actually is.

Just let me know if you are okay with me being your guide and that you have read the disclaimer and so on, and we can then start the exploration.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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John DeLight
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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby John DeLight » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:36 am

Hello Kay,

Firstly, thank you for being willing to walk me through this to clarity. I am humbled and most grateful. I have read all the sections you asked me to and I am eager to proceed.
Wonderful, however are you willing to put that aside and just be willing to LOOK at what is being pointed at to ensure clear ‘seeing’?
Yes. I am willing to look at what is being pointed at. However, I am aware that I may inevitably be looking at what I understand is being pointed at. Kay, I will sincerely do my best to directly follow your guidance and instruction.
There is no such thing as an ego. That still represents an idea that there is something separate in THIS. There is no separation of any kind and ego is just a thought construct and thought knows nothing. There is nothing hidden and everything is known. But yes, this exploration is about looking at thoughts/beliefs and seeing through them, to see what actually is.
Thank you for this comment. Yes, ego is a mind-made representation of a form of identity imagined to be separate from the One that is All-That-Is. I feel I need guidance or suggestions about not getting ensnared by conventions usage of language.

I wonder if you'd be willing to say more about,
There is nothing hidden and everything is known.
Some how, although I know what the words mean, I do not understand what you are wanting to communicate to me about THIS and/or about my mistaken reference to ego as if real.
There is no ‘you’ who is thinking or controlling what thoughts appear, so if doubt or confusion appear, then that is what appearing, but actual experience can never be doubted or confused. Thoughts will appear about confusion and doubt but there is no one/no thing that can be in doubt or confused about what actual experience actually is.


Yes. What appears is just what is appearing; all appearances are temporary and will pass.

When you say,
but actual experience can never be doubted or confused. Thoughts will appear about confusion and doubt but there is no one/no thing that can be in doubt or confused about what actual experience actually is.
, there seems to be a distinction between "actual experience" and "appearances." It seems you are saying that actual experience is the fundamental recognition that there isn't and there has never been a separate controlling self and, further, that what appears temporarily is not an actual experience. Would you please clarify whether this represents what you wanted to communicate?

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:27 am

Hey John,
Firstly, thank you for being willing to walk me through this to clarity. I am humbled and most grateful. I have read all the sections you asked me to and I am eager to proceed.
You are most welcome. Just a few further housekeeping guidelines before we continue. I know you asked a couple of questions, but I would like to put them aside, for the moment, as they will be answered as we explore the idea of there being a separate self.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day or every second day. If you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. ANSWER ONLY FROM ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. What is LOOKING?

‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual to actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

To begin with, I would just like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So, in your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers about what expectations you have) could you please answer the 5 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?


Please answer the questions highlighted in blue text individually, and remember to highlight the question being answered by using the quote function.

Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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John DeLight
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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby John DeLight » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:47 pm

I understand what you communicated. Thanks for the clarification of what is meant by "actual experience."
How will life change?
I expect life to continue to unfold itself spontaneously within the space of awareness, moment by moment, in essentially the same way it always has.
How will you change?
I don't expect that I will change in any overt or circumstantial ways. I do expect to have less superimposed, mind-made baggage.
What will be different?
What will be different will be a loss of a kind of filter through which I have been conditioned to see, construct and perceive my "self", others and the world. I expect and ongoing sense of relief and release from the habit of mind to see things through the mistaken filter of "my" separate self.
What is missing?
Nothing is missing; something which does not actually exist has been imagined as superimposed upon the actuality of life living itself in, as, around and through the one I am.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I want to know that there is no self in Reality and that there has never been and could never be a self in Reality so thoroughly that the fact is transparently clear to me at all times.

Thanks Kay.

Warmly,
John

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:21 pm

Hi John,
How will life change?
I expect life to continue to unfold itself spontaneously within the space of awareness, moment by moment, in essentially the same way it always has.
Can you explain what you mean by “within the space of awareness”?
How will you change?
I don't expect that I will change in any overt or circumstantial ways. I do expect to have less superimposed, mind-made baggage.
Perception changes, but there is no one that controls what thoughts appear. Thought, just like sounds, smells, tastes etc appear spontaneously and there is no hierarchy of thought. Thought either points to actual experience, or points to fictional thought stories about actual experience.
What will be different?
What will be different will be a loss of a kind of filter through which I have been conditioned to see, construct and perceive my "self", others and the world. I expect and ongoing sense of relief and release from the habit of mind to see things through the mistaken filter of "my" separate self.
There has never been a separate self. There wasn’t one yesterday, there isn’t one now and there won’t be one tomorrow either. Conditioning may or may not fall away, but it won’t happen as soon as seeing through the illusory self happens. This exploration is a beginning, not an ending. Seeing through the illusory self is a major realisation, however it is not the only one…so LOOKING must continue after ‘seeing’.
What is missing?
Nothing is missing; something which does not actually exist has been imagined as superimposed upon the actuality of life living itself in, as, around and through the one I am.
For something to be superimposed or imagined would mean that there is someone/something that is superimposing or imagining…which points to there being two of. There is no separation. There is no experiencer of experience. Experience and experiencer are one and the same.
What would you like to achieve or obtain by this conversation?
I want to know that there is no self in Reality and that there has never been and could never be a self in Reality so thoroughly that the fact is transparently clear to me at all times.
What is seen can never be unseen, however doubt and confusion and yo-yoing with an identification of self happens. This exploration is about seeing through the belief of a separate self, but doubt and confusion are an appearance in and of THIS and will continue to happen until they don’t, and there is no time-frame on that. The key is to consistently and constantly LOOK.

So, let’s start by looking at actual experience.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Throughout this exploration, I will highlight questions I would like for you to answer in blue text. Please remember to use the quote function to highlight the questions being answered.

Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby John DeLight » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:29 am

Hello again Kay,
I hope you are peaceful and well. I am eager to proceed with the next round of communications.

The phrase,
“within the space of awareness”
refers to the nature of awareness in "my" experience. Ever since awareness was pointed out, "it" has been experienced as both a clear, still, empty space subsuming and pervading the flow of experience. "It" is the space in which physical space and time and all the phenomena of perception, sensation and thought are displayed.
Conditioning may or may not fall away, but it won’t happen as soon as seeing through the illusory self happens. This exploration is a beginning, not an ending. Seeing through the illusory self is a major realization, however it is not the only one…so LOOKING must continue after ‘seeing’.
While reading this, there was an experience of appreciation; it was read as an admonition to continue LOOKING in order to sustain or reactivate seeing.
For something to be superimposed or imagined would mean that there is someone/something that is superimposing or imagining…which points to there being two of.
Kay, while reading this there was a sense of being misunderstood which arose. It is recognized that life unfolds the way it does without a separate actor. Never the less, it appears that the human context in which I was raised guided and shaped "my" mind (i.e. the perception, conception, projection mechanism) to perceive, conceive and project the same sort of mistaken belief in there being a separate entity here as well as there. Both since this was conditioned by apparently separate "others" and also because it became established as the default operating system is what I meant by,
...something which does not actually exist has been imagined as superimposed upon the actuality of life living itself in, as, around and through the one I am.
I thank you for all of this:
What is seen can never be unseen, however doubt and confusion and yo-yoing with an identification of self happens. This exploration is about seeing through the belief of a separate self, but doubt and confusion are an appearance in and of THIS and will continue to happen until they don’t, and there is no time-frame on that. The key is to consistently and constantly LOOK.
A wondering occurs about LOOKING...as looking arises here, the open knowingness referred to as the "space of awareness" above is re-recognized here. There is no self found. Self, I, me, my, mine and John are merely labels for this locus of life's awareness. Is this "practice" what you mean Kay, when you say,
The key is to consistently and constantly LOOK.
?

The apple provides a clarifying example.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
In truth of direct experience, there is experiencing. There is seeing, labeling and some describing of the labeled and reified seeing. The only real here is the fact of seeing, the labeling and describing arising and passing as the temporary form of awareness. The imputed separate apple replete with labeled attributes exist only as a temporarily stabilized thought passing through the awareness.

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:57 am

Hi John,
The key is to consistently and constantly LOOK.
?
The apple provides a clarifying example.
Yes, the apple provides an example on how to LOOK. We are LOOKING with actual experience, which is experience appearing in the here/now, ie colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation and sound. So the actual experience appearing is colour + thought, but there is no actual experience of an apple.

Is an ‘apple’ actually known?
Taste ‘of an apple’ is known
Colour ‘of an apple’ is known
Sensation ‘of an apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell ‘of an apple’ is known
Thought ‘of an apple’ is known
Sound 'of an apple' is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
In truth of direct experience, there is experiencing. There is seeing, labeling and some describing of the labeled and reified seeing. The only real here is the fact of seeing, the labeling and describing arising and passing as the temporary form of awareness. The imputed separate apple replete with labeled attributes exist only as a temporarily stabilized thought passing through the awareness.
There is no experiencing. For there to be experiencing there would have to be an experiencer of experience which = two which = separation. There is no ‘awareness’ and ‘awared’. ‘Awareness/awared’ or experiencer/experience (whichever terminology used – however, throughout this exploration I will be using the term ‘experience) are one and the same thing.

There is colour, and there are labels (thought) and thought stories about an apple. Both colour and thought are actual experience, but thoughts about an apple is a story that is ‘superimposed’ on actual experience.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby John DeLight » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:26 am

Is an ‘apple’ actually known?
Taste ‘of an apple’ is known
Colour ‘of an apple’ is known
Sensation ‘of an apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell ‘of an apple’ is known
Thought ‘of an apple’ is known
Sound 'of an apple' is known
However, is an apple actually known?
No apple is actually know because "an apple" is merely an empty label for a set of known sense-ings and thinkings.

Use of language with its nominalizations and tendency to reify is a little confusing in this process. For example, in this paragraph where you say,
There is no experiencing. For there to be experiencing there would have to be an experiencer of experience which = two which = separation. There is no ‘awareness’ and ‘awared’. ‘Awareness/awared’ or experiencer/experience (whichever terminology used – however, throughout this exploration I will be using the term ‘experience) are one and the same thing.
, and you chose to use the word "experience," to point toward the singularity of the awareness/awared this singularity is what I was attempting to articulate with the word experiencing, which to me means both the mentally divided experiencer/experience. Similarly, Kay, when I am referring to sense-ings or think-ings, I am intending to acknowledge the inseparability of the observing awareness and the observed experience.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.
This evening and tomorrow I will apply this labeling of experience as often as it occurs to me. I will write back again tomorrow evening and report how it goes.

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:33 am

Hello John,
There is no experiencing. For there to be experiencing there would have to be an experiencer of experience which = two which = separation. There is no ‘awareness’ and ‘awared’. ‘Awareness/awared’ or experiencer/experience (whichever terminology used – however, throughout this exploration I will be using the term ‘experience) are one and the same thing.
, and you chose to use the word "experience," to point toward the singularity of the awareness/awared this singularity is what I was attempting to articulate with the word experiencing, which to me means both the mentally divided experiencer/experience. Similarly, Kay, when I am referring to sense-ings or think-ings, I am intending to acknowledge the inseparability of the observing awareness and the observed experience.
I have no clue what you are referring to in your responses, and it is my role to point so that you can LOOK and are clear. As we move along in this exploration, I am sure our language will meet as pointing is very repetitive and I will just keep on pointing until your responses are telling me you are clear. If confusion arises, yes, ask questions but I would also like for you to LOOK for that which can be confused.

Love, Kay
xx
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby John DeLight » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:15 pm

I, too, am trying to discern the meaning or your responses. I will continue to look and report what is seen. Thus far there is seeing light, hearing sound, feeling sensations and thinking thoughts.

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby John DeLight » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:02 pm

For the last day an a half, Kay, I have been consciously attending to the actual experience of seeing color, hearing sound, feeling sensation and thinking thought as often as I remembered to do so.

What I have noticed is that this way of experiencing is different from what I have become accustomed to in the sense that, as soon as the organism "clicks into" the immediacy of perception, the underlying stillness and silence moves foreground and the body relaxes tensions (neck and shoulders) which I hadn't even noticed a moment before. There is a sense of presence which is peaceful, open and all-inclusive.

I will continue with this until I hear from you. Thanks Kay.

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:45 pm

Hi John,
What I have noticed is that this way of experiencing is different from what I have become accustomed to in the sense that, as soon as the organism "clicks into" the immediacy of perception, the underlying stillness and silence moves foreground and the body relaxes tensions (neck and shoulders) which I hadn't even noticed a moment before. There is a sense of presence which is peaceful, open and all-inclusive.
The point of the exercise was to become aware of actual experience as opposed to what thought overlays actual experience with ie thoughts about actual experience. This exploration is not about becoming anything, including more peaceful, happier, spacious, present etc, they are just further appearances in/as THIS. This exploration focusses on actual experience as a means to see what actually is as a means to realising ‘no self’ and how the illusory ‘I’ seemingly comes about.

I suggest that you continue to LOOK with AE at daily experiences to really see what is and to see how thought overlays actual experience with stories, as these stories are the fairytales about AE.

So, let’s have a look at thought.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

- Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
- Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
- Where are they coming from and going to?
- Can you predict your next thought?
- Can you push away any thought?
- Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
- Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
- Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
- Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
- Is it possible to control any thoughts?
- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Love, Kay
xx
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby John DeLight » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:31 am

Thanks again Kay for persisting with my misunderstandings of your instructions.
Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

- Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
- Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
- Where are they coming from and going to?
- Can you predict your next thought?
- Can you push away any thought?
- Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
- Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
- Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
- Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
- Is it possible to control any thoughts?
- Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?
- It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
First session:
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No. Nothing was done to make any of the thoughts appear as they did.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No. I could not have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead.
Where are they coming from and going to?
It appears that thoughts are both coming from and going to nowhere. They appear out of nothing discernable and they seem to disappear into the same unidentifiable space.
Can you predict your next thought?
I have no sense of what thought might appear next within awareness.
Can you push away any thought?
It is "self"-evident that I have no control over thoughts. No, I cannot push any thought away.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No. Thoughts appear spontaneously, unpredictably and, more or less, continuously.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Once a thought has begun, it has completed itself. If there is a noticing of thought as it arises and a subsequent attending to the awareness in which it has arisen, it resolves itself in the openness of awareness.
Can you choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No, I can neither choose to have "positive" thoughts nor can I choose not to have negative thoughts.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
I cannot choose to determine the kind of thoughts that arise spontaneously.
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
In my own experience, it is not at all possible to control thoughts; they are unpredictable, spontaneous and pretty much continuous.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I''?
No. It is not possible to prevent a thought from appearing. Including the thought 'I,' which appears to be a label for a collection of thoughts and sensations which do not constitute an actual separate identity.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?
My experience is that thought is sometimes sequentially or tangentially related to a previous thought and, often, it is spontaneous and not at all related to the previous thought

Thanks for this exercise. I will utilize it again.

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forgetmenot
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Re: No Self Anywhere, Ever

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:21 am

Hey John,

Wonderful looking into/about thoughts!

So, it is clear to you that there is no thinker of thought and that thought just is and appears spontaneously?


If you have no questions about the nature of thought, let's move onto the idea of control/choice/decision making.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?



Love, Kay
xx
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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