Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

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mountainbykr
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Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby mountainbykr » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:05 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the illusion that has propelled my life, my identifications, my attachments, my search has created much un-necessary suffering. The path of letting go of this illusion feels right at this time.

What are you looking for at LU?
Freedom from the searching, freedom from the illusion, and the liberation of a soul to do its work in this world - to help others evolve and grow and freedom from suffering. Conservation of energy - and the use of that energy to free up souls from un-necessary suffering, or the illusion of suffering.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Direct insight into the illusion. Understanding of this illusion and to see it for what it is - a big illusion. Freedom from the identification with a self, image, thoughts, a position, etc. A knowingness of what is real and what is not real.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A good guide is very important to see through the mechanisms, the defenses, the projections, etc. To keep the awareness where it is intended to be - not distracted.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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dottybb
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby dottybb » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:42 pm

Hello Mountainbykr,

Welcome to LU. Thanks for you intro.
I'm here to guide you and support you on your journey. I ask that you speak from your direct experience, not from an intellectual, conceptual space. This means staying focused on what is happening now. This requires letting go of what happened in the past, and what others may have said or written. This is your unique process; not t be compared with anyone else. Please take your time, and write as honestly as possible. I will answer when I can.

So let's get to it:
Have you ever considered that there is no separate self?
No me?
No I?
When you look for an I, what do you find?
Describe what you find.
What color is this I? smell? taste? texture?

Please look into this deeply.

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mountainbykr
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby mountainbykr » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:16 am

Hello - and apologies for the delay in my reply.

I have considered that there is no separate self to your first question. Yet my experience gets confused when I look - questions (thoughts) arise when I look for the I. If there is no I or me, then who is doing the brushing of my teeth, etc. It appears to be a human figure doing the brushing that I witness. If there is no who, me, or I then this human thing, that is doing this, is there no I or me, to any of the living animals doing their things ? I guess I am finding thoughts arise and the presence of mind, thinking when I look for I. I feel anxious, nervous, unsettled when I look. Busy in the mind. My awareness has control of the physical, emotional human experience to some extent. I am having trouble finding I, but also letting go that the I is the human, because I am identified with I being human because sensory inputs come from this human it seems.

Confusion.....Help ?

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dottybb
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby dottybb » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:20 pm

Greetings! I had pretty much given up on ever hearing from you. But this is life you never know what's coming next.

Do you have a name you wish to be called? Also you can call me Burma.

Please read all the disclaimers and all the information on how to do it posting with quotation marks. This is very important as we will be going back-and-forth with questions and answers.

I live on the east coast of the USA so my time frame in responding to you will be based on the this time zone.

All the best,

Burma

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mountainbykr
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby mountainbykr » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:28 pm

Hi Burma!
You can call me Mike. I will read the info you referenced on posting. I am ready for your guidance.
Blessings,
Mike

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dottybb
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby dottybb » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:05 am

Hi Mike,

Let's look at your expectations. Look at a typical day, and paint a picture for me how you want your life to be after you see through the illusion of a separate self. Be specific. Thanks! Burma

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mountainbykr
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby mountainbykr » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:50 am

Hi Burma,

As I sit here and think how I wish life to be after the removal of the illusion.....I see:
- A life filled with a sense of belonging, we are all in this together, I am part of this universe
- I am cared for, loved, respected, held compassionately
- I can see what I want, and not react, but rather respond with love, compassion, humility
- I don't get caught in this endless looping of thoughts driven by fears of : not good enough, not safe, not secure (financially or otherwise), nobody loves me, I do not matter, etc
- There is flow, and awareness of what I want, and I can direct my energy (actions, thoughts, emotions) in alignment with those desires consistently
- That there is no striving to prove I am good enough, loveable, striving to create safety. That there is trust that I am ok, that I am enough.

As I am writing this note to you it is coming into my awareness, that
I
, am responsible for loving, caring for, holding this human with emotions and feelings and a body. It is coming into
my
awareness that
I
need to provide this to other humans and animals and plants and this world. If indeed, we are all inseparable and one, then why does it matter
who
gives this to
who
, but rather that its just given to the inseparable collection of people, animals, plants, and earth within this great universe.
I
am realizing how selfish
I
have been wanting this bestowed upon
me
instead of selflessly giving both to
myself
and to this inseparable universe of all things. Some judgement arises as I see how selfish these actions have been in the name of
me
. Once
I
did-identify with
me
then the love, compassion, care, holding just needs to be given to whomever it could benefit, of which
I
am a part of the whole. This thing
me
sure does create a lot of drama, reactions, and activity that doesn't seem to be in the collective's best interest as a whole.

Hmmm - all for now - I am humbled.....

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mountainbykr
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby mountainbykr » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:53 am

and now more humbled that I need quoting guidance, good grief!

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mountainbykr
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby mountainbykr » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:35 am

Lets try this again......

Hi Burma,

As I sit here and think how I wish life to be after the removal of the illusion.....I see:
- A life filled with a sense of belonging, we are all in this together, I am part of this universe
- I am cared for, loved, respected, held compassionately
- I can see what I want, and not react, but rather respond with love, compassion, humility
- I don't get caught in this endless looping of thoughts driven by fears of : not good enough, not safe, not secure (financially or otherwise), nobody loves me, I do not matter, etc
- There is flow, and awareness of what I want, and I can direct my energy (actions, thoughts, emotions) in alignment with those desires consistently
- That there is no striving to prove I am good enough, loveable, striving to create safety. That there is trust that I am ok, that I am enough.

As I am writing this note to you it is coming into my awareness, that
I
am responsible for loving, caring for, holding this human with emotions and feelings and a body. It is coming into
my
awareness that I need to provide this to other humans and animals and plants and this world. If indeed, we are all inseparable and one, then why does it matter who gives this to who
, but rather that its just given to the inseparable collection of people, animals, plants, and earth within this great universe.
I
am realizing how selfish I have been wanting this bestowed upon
me
instead of selflessly giving both to
myself
and to this inseparable universe of all things. Some judgement arises as I see how selfish these actions have been in the name of
me
. Once
I
dis-identify with
me
then the love, compassion, care, holding just needs to be given to whomever it could benefit, of which
I
am a part of the whole. This thing
me
sure does create a lot of drama, reactions, and activity that doesn't seem to be in the collective's best interest as a whole.

Hmmm - all for now - I am humbled.....

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dottybb
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby dottybb » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:50 pm

Dear Mike

Thanks for sharing your detailed list of your expectations and fears. Lots of good clues are in there as to where we need to begin.
A life filled with a sense of belonging, we are all in this together, I am part of this universe
- I am cared for, loved, respected, held compassionately
- I can see what I want, and not react, but rather respond with love, compassion, humility
- I don't get caught in this endless looping of thoughts driven by fears of : not good enough, not safe, not secure (financially or otherwise), nobody loves me, I do not matter, etc
- There is flow, and awareness of what I want, and I can direct my energy (actions, thoughts, emotions) in alignment with those desires consistently
- That there is no striving to prove I am good enough, loveable, striving to create safety. That there is trust that I am ok, that I am enough.
BTW To use the quote, highlight text and click on the quote button. It takes a bit of practice.

Here are some tips on how to get the most out of the guiding:

I suggest you write out your responses and review them before you send them to me. Sometimes something gets triggered that you may want to add.

Put away other related materials you may have on hand for now. Reading, watching, listening to others can create confusion; our goal is clarity.

Communicating at least once a day is best, to keep the momentum going. If you cannot do this please let me know, and I will do the same. I may be able to respond more frequently depending on my schedule.

There is no rush, and there are no wrong answers. I may repeat a question if I sense there is more exploration needed. I ask for your utmost honesty in our communications.

We are volunteer Guides at LU using a Direct Pointing method; posing specific questions in order to focus attention on the experience of the present moment.

The words "me" and "I" are helpful in communicating. They may also be called into question when focusing on seeing through the illusion of the separate self.

Mike, you say: "thoughts are driven by fears". Let's look into this.

What are thoughts?
Where are thoughts located?
Can you control thoughts?
Can thoughts be driven? Describe what a thought driven by fears looks like?
Who or what is driving the fearful thoughts?

Best to you,
Burma

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dottybb
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby dottybb » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:23 pm

Hi Mike
Checking in with you to see if everything's going well with our conversation?
If for any reason you are unable to respond to the questions let me know-- thank you.

All the best,

Burma

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mountainbykr
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby mountainbykr » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:54 pm

Hi Burma - All good here - just really busy last night....

What are thoughts?
Thoughts are a conceptual energy that don’t belong to a someone, they just are, and can come and go. Often thoughts become attachments to truth or to me – which I now see as an illusion. They seem to come from the mind – and sometimes out of nowhere.

Where are thoughts located?
Location doesn’t seem to be associated with thoughts from my experience, other than inside my experience (mind or psyche). They seem to be located within my mind, but my mind doesn’t seem to have a location other than in my head, but even saying that, the mind feels locationless, not specifically located in my head.
Can you control thoughts?
Thoughts can definitely arise that surprise me and don’t seem to be generated from a specific input that I am aware, however, some thoughts do seem to be generated, I can focus my awareness on something and thoughts will arise associated with that. It appears I can control some thoughts the mind creates, but not others.

Can thoughts be driven? Describe what a thought driven by fears looks like?
My experience is that thoughts can be influenced by my mind, my body – how it feels, and my emotional state. If I am fearful or scared, my thoughts usually are ones that become worst case scenarios associated with some fear I may have. A thought driven by fear, is often a detailed description of events in a worst case scenario about what could happen in the future, not about what is actually happening in the present. If I settle into the present moment, usually the fear and the associated worst case scenario thoughts go away or subside.

Who or what is driving the fearful thoughts?
The fearful thoughts appear at least influenced, perhaps driven, by the emotional state of this human being. The mind appears to create thoughts when the human body experiences something in the present that represented something in the past (scary) which creates this emotional state of the human. This emotional state in part then affects what thoughts the human mind creates about the future. I am associating this with mind and human body now and less about who.

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dottybb
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby dottybb » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:02 pm

Hi Mike,

Great responses to my questions! I am pleased that you are looking so deeply into these questions about thoughts. you say they
don’t belong to a someone, they just are, and can come and go.
and
the mind feels locationless, not specifically located in my head.
Yes! The concept of mind is useful when needed for conversations/communicating, and you see it is location-less.

You say:
It appears I can control some thoughts the mind creates, but not others.
Let's experiment: Think about blue dragons, and only about blue dragons for 4 minutes. Do not think about pink dragons.
What happened? Were you able to control your thoughts? Did you think about pink dragons, even one time?

We will look at the rest of your replies after you report on this experiment.

All the best,

Burma

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mountainbykr
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby mountainbykr » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:14 am

Hi Burma,

That was an interesting experiment:

- I could definitely bring blue dragons into my mind and thoughts, and they definitely went away, like my attention can do from the breath during meditation, and so I had to keep bringing my attention back to blue dragons.

- Pink dragons definitely entered my attention, but not as much as blue dragons, and I had some resistance to seeing them, like oh no, your not supposed to be here, go away, then I just laughed at this.

- All sorts of other random things came into my awareness that I didn't have any control over.

- Reminded me a bit like meditation, bringing my attention back to the breath (Blue Dragons) whenever it wanders, time and again.

So it appears, I can bring things into my attention/mind/thoughts with intention (Blue Dragons), and random things can make there way into there as well of which I have no control over. It seems, once the mind receives inputs via reading, seeing, hearing, etc - I cant control those things coming into my thoughts and awareness in the future. And It seems obvious I cant stop things from coming into my awareness, in fact, trying to stop seemed like it make it more likely to come into my awareness.

That's all I have for now,
Mike

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dottybb
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Re: Help Me Let Go Of The Illusion

Postby dottybb » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:09 am

Hi Mike,

Enough with the dragons! You agree you cannot control thoughts.
We are moving on.

Yes this is a clear observation:
A thought driven by fear, is often a detailed description of events in a worst case scenario about what could happen in the future, not about what is actually happening in the present.
Then you say:
If I settle into the present moment, usually the fear and the associated worst case scenario thoughts go away or subside.
Sounds like thoughts create, via projection into the future, some kind of catastrophe?
And yet when you are present the catastrophe-thoughts subside?

Based on the results of the dragon exercise you directly experienced-- you were you not able to control thoughts.


The fearful thoughts appear at least influenced, perhaps driven, by the emotional state of this human being. The mind appears to create thoughts when the human body experiences something in the present that represented something in the past (scary) which creates this emotional state of the human. This emotional state in part then affects what thoughts the human mind creates about the future. I am associating this with mind and human body now and less about who.
You speak of fears and emotions. Please look now directly into the ways your fears and emotions are triggered.
Do thoughts trigger emotions?
Do thoughts trigger fears?
Are any body sensations involved?
How long a gap is there between sensations and thoughts?

Thanks Mike.

Onward,

Burma


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