Looking for a guide

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Doerian
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Looking for a guide

Postby Doerian » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:51 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Self is not fixed

What are you looking for at LU?
Liberation of false views. Looking through the false concept of a fixed self and learning to experience reality through direct experience instead of thinking up reality. Guidance to learn to avoid the trap of virtual reality instead of direct awareness.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Openening to direct experience. Direct pointing to the experience here and now, looking through falshood and constructed ideas of reality. being clear and understandable and down to earth in pointing to true reality.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
buddhism

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?:
9

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Doerian
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Doerian » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:23 pm

Anyone who would love to guide me? Would be so much appreciated. But perhaps all the guides are very busy right now.
Love from Belgium.

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ratnapani
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ratnapani » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:21 pm

Hi Doerien,
My name is Ratnapani and I have a background in Buddhism and I'd love to look with you. xx

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ratnapani
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ratnapani » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:23 pm

Oops,there's a start - misspelling your name.

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Doerian
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Doerian » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:40 pm

Hi Ratnapani,

So glad that you're willing to look with me!
No problem with misspelling my name, no worries.
Yesterday was my Birthday, therefore a quite busy day (today also) and the reason why I could answer only right now.
Sorry I kept you waiting.
So, I'm ready now when you are Ratnapani. Terrific that you have a Buddhist background!
Looking forward to getting guided very much.
xx
Doerian

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ratnapani
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ratnapani » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:36 pm

Hi Doerian,
Sorry for the delay here, this was due to 'technical difficulties'.
I love your enthusiasm - this is my favourite occupation !

The general idea is that we try to post every day to keep the focus.
I will ask loads of questions rather than putting too many ideas in your head and ask you to answer as honestly as you can from your direct and actual experience. To this end it is probably best not to immerse yourself in theory at this time with study or 'spiritual' videos.

If that is ok here is the first question.
LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Self is not fixed
If there is not a fixed self are you aware of a changing self. How does this manifest in the six senses, presuming you are familiar with mind being regarded as a sense. Where is this changing self located ?

xx
Ratnapani.

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Doerian
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Doerian » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:18 pm

Hi Ratnapani,

So glad with your first question.
I don't think I already mentioned that English is not my native language. So perhaps I will not always express myself very eloquently. You probably noticed already. So first of all please forgive me for my clumsy English.
Because I understand English quite well I still prefer an English guide. Hope you're okay with that?

As far as I'm concerned your first question consists of different parts/questions. I answer them one by one not to get confused.
If there is not a fixed self are you aware of a changing self.
If there's no self how can I be aware of a changing self? The only thing I'm aware of is constant changing phenomena externally and internally.
How does this manifest in the six senses, presuming you are familiar with mind being regarded as a sense.
It manifest itself by rising sensations for instance bodily sensations like i.e. itching. There appears an itch out of nowhere, if I just experience the sensation it can get stronger first and then it changes or even goes away or appears in another part of the body. Mentally thoughts arise also out of nowhere and vanish again to make place for other thoughts that are sometimes charged with emotions. These come and go too. There seem to be constant movement in all the senses and it seems it's there on different levels because it's like there's awareness of it when I direct my attention to it.Can you understand what I say? It's like there's an awareness being aware of the fact that there's awareness… Okay this sounds weird.
Where is this changing self located ?
I just don't know where it's located. My first guess would be the head or the mind somewhere inside my head. But if I really feel i.e. it's not only in the head but also in that spot and even strangely enough outside the body when I close my eyes, it's sort of broader? I can localise the sensation but it feels broader… So this changing self has not a fixed place. But I sort of like it if it had a fixed place and that this would be the head.

xx
Doerian

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Doerian
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Doerian » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:24 pm

Hi Ratnapani,

I just noticed I forgot a word in my reply
But if I really feel i.e.[/quote
I forgot to write i.e. 'the itching'
in that spot

that spot where it itches.

Sorry for the omissions hope I formulated more clearly now.

Have a nice evening
xx
Doerian

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ratnapani
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ratnapani » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:45 pm

Hi Doerian,

I hadn't noticed that English is not your first language but that is ok. What we are looking at is very simple so simple language should do well. In fact what we are looking at is so simple and obvious that we miss it.
If there's no self how can I be aware of a changing self? The only thing I'm aware of is constant changing phenomena externally and internally.
If you stop there we can say you've 'got it' already !

No self, changing or otherwise, just changing phenomena, only we make the mistake of calling some of them me or mine.
There seem to be constant movement in all the senses and it seems it's there on different levels because it's like there's awareness of it when I direct my attention to it.Can you understand what I say? It's like there's an awareness being aware of the fact that there's awareness… Okay this sounds weird.
Not so weird, awareness of awareness is crucial to being human. It gets used to make the stories that cause suffering but also can see the truth that liberates.
However, is there an 'I' needed for this awareness to function ? Are 'you' this awareness ?

Please 'sit in awareness', as they say, and see if you can find someone needed to 'do' it.

Where is this changing self located ?

I just don't know where it's located. My first guess would be the head or the mind somewhere inside my head.
There is something called a mind inside your head, are you sure ?
Please take some quiet time to look for this thing called mind.
But if I really feel i.e. it's not only in the head but also in that spot and even strangely enough outside the body when I close my eyes, it's sort of broader?
That's really interesting. The self is in the head and in bodily sensation and even outside the body.

It sounds like a softening of one of the illusions that the self creates to maintain itself; the separation of me in here and all the rest out there.
If that makes any sense in your experience do rest in that way of eyes closed looking and look for the boundaries of this self.


So this changing self has not a fixed place. But I sort of like it if it had a fixed place and that this would be the head.
If this changing self has no fixed place is the concept of it actually needed for everything to work just fine ?

Do you have to fall back to 'this changing self is (in) awareness' and -again- is the concept needed for awareness to work just fine ?

That's very honest - you want Santa Claus to live in your head !

I hope my English has been clear - do say if it's not.

Ratnapani xx

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Doerian
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Doerian » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:07 pm

Hi Ratnapani,

Sorry for the delay.
You're questions sort of caused some resistance and also anxiety.
If there's no I?! What is this? What's happening? Nothing to hold on to anymore?
This suddenly felt scary and so lonely.
If there's not such a construct as an I. Everything just is, there's no me no you no nothing. I don't know how to deal with that?
Everything familiar falls away? Scary stuff.
However, is there an 'I' needed for this awareness to function ? Are 'you' this awareness ?
No I needed.
Since the I cannot be located, it's either not there or everywhere awareness!
What?
But howcome this awareness in this bag of bones experiences different emotions and is located physically in a different place than you are. Ratnapani awareness is in the UK and this awareness is behind a computer in Antwerp? Separateness. Awareness is not separate? Huh?
It gets used to make the stories that cause suffering but also can see the truth that liberates.
So? What is it this difference that makes 'us?' human and can see the truth that liberates? Yes! how?
Still no I just awareness but seems like different levels shortsighted and broad awareness. Or blind thoughtish awarenss and just awareness? Can you follow what I say?
Please 'sit in awareness', as they say, and see if you can find someone needed to 'do' it.
I'll sit in awareness right now and let you know just to make sure.
So, what I notice, a lot of talking going on the I thing wish doesn't really exist as fixed entity sort of made up by thoughts or stories as you call it. And then there's a stillness that sees which is not an fixed I or a something. It's there all the time sort of unaffected by all the gibberish that goes on, on mental and feeling-level. Like. Feels calm, wide, still soft not fixed broad or fluid even not that. Whole body and head tingles now, gives me goosebumps. No 'I' but don't know what it is some sort of awareness? Ocean of experience…?
Please take some quiet time to look for this thing called mind.
Yes.
Brain? Head seems very active, frowning forehead. Not only head everywhere. Is this mind? Don't know I call it mind because it gives something to hold on to sort of otherwise scary.
It sounds like a softening of one of the illusions that the self creates to maintain itself; the separation of me in here and all the rest out there.
If that makes any sense in your experience do rest in that way of eyes closed looking and look for the boundaries of this self.
I like it and I don't. Makes want to cry and laugh. What is happening? I prefer Santa Claus because that's what's going on the whole time in the surrounding world. If I say what I experience right now, people will lock me up. Think I'm crazy. There must be an I.Because if this person 'I' doesn't eat it (it) dies.
If this changing self has no fixed place is the concept of it actually needed for everything to work just fine ?
It just works fine without a concept of course it does.
Getting confused here. Contradicting…
Do you have to fall back to 'this changing self is (in) awareness'
and -again- is the concept needed for awareness to work just fine ?
Don't understand the first part of your question. Please explain.
Do you have to fall back to 'this changing self is (in) awareness' and
Awareness just works. Haha this sounds really odd :)
you want Santa Claus to live in your head !
Yes please!
Otherwise they'll lock me up. I'm afraid this is how this world works, with Santa Claus belief. I tried without Santa Claus and I gained 10 kilos and didn't to anything anymore.
No Santa Claus means only awareness and no free will?
Santa Claus is a lot more familiar and seems a lot easier as well.

Doerianxx

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ratnapani
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ratnapani » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:05 pm

Hi Doerian,
Sorry for the delay here too, I had a visitor.
You're questions sort of caused some resistance and also anxiety.
That's usual when undermining a long standing illusion, It's a sign that you are on the right track, looking in the right place.

Just sit with this anxiety, it is trying to protect something so you can thank it for that and ask what it is trying to protect.

If there's not such a construct as an I. Everything just is, there's no me no you no nothing. I don't know how to deal with that?
Everything familiar falls away? Scary stuff.
Everything will not collapse, in fact it tends to go on just the same but without the strain of having to support the illusion of being the center of everything.
Since the I cannot be located, it's either not there or everywhere awareness!
How about the illusory 'self' is not there; there is awareness.?

Ratnapani awareness is in the UK and this awareness is behind a computer in Antwerp? Separateness. Awareness is not separate? Huh?

At this stage lets keep it simple - there is awareness here and there is awareness there but in neither place is a separate self needed for that to be so.
We can look at the 'emptiness' of both self and other at a later stage !

I think I'll leave it there for tonight and let you settle and relax with what has happened so far.
Do thank fear for doing it's job won't you.

Ratnapani xx

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Doerian
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Doerian » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:54 am

Hi Ratnapani,

Thank you for your reply.
It eases me and strangely enough your questions have the effect of answers to me.
First sitting with anxiety.
Sweet to thank it. Softening experience.
thank it for that and ask what it is trying to protect.
The question and thanking didn't give an answer just a feeling. This was light, vulnerable, innocent. Felt like a weak mollusc in a shell. Protecting me from what? Didn't get a clear answer.
How about the illusory 'self' is not there; there is awareness.?
Yes. Absolutely haha. The absolutely is sort of funny.

Thanking fear again. Feels good.
Sorry that I can't give you a clear answer what it's protecting me from.

Doerian xx

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ratnapani
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ratnapani » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:39 am

Hi Doerian,

I'm glad you have found more peace.
The question and thanking didn't give an answer just a feeling. This was light, vulnerable, innocent. Felt like a weak mollusc in a shell.
Nice ! The experience was in the body and this is where we can 'look' from, what we can look with rather than with the head. Looking with the heart, even the belly.
If you feel 'all up in the head' you can try letting your center drop into the body, without straining for it. I also go 'feet, bum, belly, heart' sometimes. Feeling into each place.
Protecting me from what? Didn't get a clear answer.
Never mind, if you don't get a clear answer you don't. If anxiety arises again you can ask again, gently, with a kind attitude.
No need for apologies, you see what you see and you don't see what you don't see - until you do !
How about the illusory 'self' is not there; there is awareness.?

Yes. Absolutely haha. The absolutely is sort of funny.
'Yes absolutely' - a knowing / feeling perhaps, that's what we're after.
Yes, it is relatively funny !

Since we are in the area of awareness I'd like you to do a simple clarification exercise.

Would you sit comfortably and become aware of your senses, sight; sound; taste, if any; smell,if any; touch and thought .

Then say to yourself I am seeing a table, I am seeing a door, I am seeing a chair or whatever you see.
Then I am hearing birds or traffic to whatever it is.
The same with taste and smell.
My feet are touching the floor for instance.
I am thinking, if you notice it.

Then do the same without the I's
'Seeing table,'' hearing traffic,'' feet touching floor,'' 'there is thought' etc.

Comment 'quietly' so as not to drown the experience.
Try it a few times, preferably without expectations, and see if you notice any difference.

Please let me know your observations.

Ratnapani xx

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Doerian
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Doerian » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:37 pm

Hi Ratnapani,

First of all, thank you so much for being my guide!
your instructions are freeing and very helpful.

I have to leave to a concert in a moment.
But already wanted to let you know the exercise was nice, even beautiful and also intimate.
The experience was in the body and this is where we can 'look' from, what we can look with rather than with the head. Looking with the heart, even the belly.
Understood and did it. Going back to the head happened but not always. Feeling from heart body and belly was so nice. Liberating feeling. Just Awareness. Feet, drop into the body. Awareness is spacious.
Would you sit comfortably and become aware of your senses, sight; sound; taste, if any; smell,if any; touch and thought.
Then say to yourself I am seeing a table, I am seeing a door, I am seeing a chair or whatever you see.
Then I am hearing birds or traffic to whatever it is.
The same with taste and smell.
My feet are touching the floor for instance.
I am thinking, if you notice it.
Easy to do. Brought me in contact with surroundings. Beautiful day, sunny I was outside at the docks. Very enjoyable.
Then do the same without the I's
'Seeing table,'' hearing traffic,'' feet touching floor,'' 'there is thought' etc.
Wow!
No likes or dislikes. Broad spacious. Intimate. Soft. Lovely. Far less stressful!
Had this sort of experience before but now, thanks to your instructions so simple to return back to.
Loved it. Was liberating.
Far less stress, grasping, non-identification. So simple so near!

Practiced with it all day even through a massage I had with my physiotherapist this evening. What a gift!

Have to go now.

Thank you
xx Doerian

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ratnapani
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ratnapani » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:39 pm

Hi Doerian,

You are very welcome, it is a pleasure to do this with you.
Wow!
No likes or dislikes. Broad spacious. Intimate. Soft. Lovely. Far less stressful!
Had this sort of experience before but now, thanks to your instructions so simple to return back to.
Loved it. Was liberating.
Far less stress, grasping, non-identification. So simple so near!
That sounds great. You describe many of the states that can be a bi-product of seeing through the illusion of self, particularly non-identification, and yes, that seeing is also so simple and so near.

States come and go, even after seeing, but it is this 'I'dentification that we are hunting down.

Without the 'I' thoughts where was 'I' ?
You felt 'liberated' without 'I' thoughts, is it ever more than a thought?

Decisions were made - was anyone making them ?

Choices were made - was anybody making them ?

Ratnapani xx


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