ITTR

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Chape
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ITTR

Postby Chape » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:39 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
To get back to the perspective to sense the reality as it is. To get back to perspective what we probably had as a newborn baby. No identification, just see reality as it is.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance and pushing to right direction. Probably have some theoretic understanding about what you do and what you try to help people with, but have difficulties to integrate it to my illusory reality. Story and thoughts about me and my identity is too sticky. In addition I have been meditating i bit over a year, each day 1-2 times a day (45 min - 90 min a day) mostly samatha but have recently shifted to vipassana now. I haven't been in any retreat, just at home. Maybe I could get some guidance for my vipassana-start, too.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Advice and trust that this can be possible even for me. And by "this" I mean reducing suffering and breaking the illusion of separation at least partly. I expect guidance and are open-minded. I have not had any teacher, just books, suffering and loneliness, as motivators in spiritual path. Maybe I expect contact with people to whom I can speak without fear.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I hit the wall, so to speak for 3 years ago. In western terms I suffered from depression which became so intense that I had difficulties to work. After that I began psychotherapy. I have always been interested in spiritual things even for 20 years ago as i 15-16 years old kid. That time I read some Wayne W Dyers books :-), (even though my parents and family was part of the hardcore religious lutherian sect. But now after starting psychotherapy I felt this cannot be the whole thing and my hunger to spiritual things started to grow again. So for 2 years ago I started to read, and I found postraditional buddhist teachings and books like Daniel Ingram's MCTB. And about a year ago I started to meditate. I decided to practise samatha first to sharpen my concentration, and now I feel maybe I have gained some concentration to start vipassana.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:19 pm

Hi Chape my name is Hannah and I would be happy to guide you.
Would you like to use Chape here or a different name?

Your intro was pretty down to earth without many expectations, but I just wanted to bring up a couple of points:
To get back to perspective what we probably had as a newborn baby. No identification, just see reality as it is.
I don't think you probably really want to become a newborn baby again. What about being able to enjoy a beautiful book, or music, or tell your partner how much you love them?
I'm just pointing this out to make sure you are clear nothing will go away here. This is simply about seeing clearly what is, and has been going on.
Story and thoughts about me and my identity is too sticky
We will go into this, don't worry.
mostly samatha but have recently shifted to vipassana now.
I understand these terms, and have been involved with Buddhism but here I like to stick to everyday language. But I will say this, in Samatha terms seeing what we point to here only requires concentration to 1st dhyana level, if even that. That is why it can be examined during day to day activities (and in fact needs to be!)- But feel free to continue meditation whilst we are in dialogue.

However please hold off any other spiritual reading or videos etc whilst we are in dialogue so you can focus on your own experience, not second hand ideas.
Maybe I expect contact with people to whom I can speak without fear.
You can do that. I want to hear the 100% honest, uncut version.
I even want to hear about any fear if it arises.
Bring it all to the table and we can examine it together
xx

Please try to post once every 24 hours so we keep up a momentum.

If you are happy with all that let's get the ball rolling.

Describe to me in detail what you would say was your self as it appears right now.


Looking forward to exploring with you
x
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:00 am

Hi Hannah. Thank you for being my guide. You can call me Chape. English is not my first language, but I prefer to do this in English and try my best. Hope it is ok for you. I’m motivated to see what this can lead to, so let’s start.

I don't think you probably really want to become a newborn baby again. What about being able to enjoy a beautiful book, or music, or tell your partner how much you love them?
I'm just pointing this out to make sure you are clear nothing will go away here.
No, wouldn’t rewind back a day. Understand that nothing in real life will go away. You are on spot about expression of love. It feels difficult now with all conditioning of mind.

But feel free to continue meditation whilst we are in dialogue.

However please hold off any other spiritual reading or videos etc whilst we are in dialogue so you can focus on your own experience, not second hand ideas.
Ok, no readings. Just finished LU app quotes. And thanks, I will continue meditation practice, as it has become important daily routine.

Please try to post once every 24 hours so we keep up a momentum.
Yes I will.

Describe to me in detail what you would say was your self as it appears right now.
Myself feels like separate entity with identity with all stories about past and future. I feel that there is me and “the others” or me against the others. Self is a vulnerable entity who cries to be protected. Most of time I feel myself as:
- I am a performer
- I have impressive Curriculum vitae
- I have done lot of things many just dream on.
- I am a good at work no matter what I do.
- I was a bad child at home, excellent at school.
- I am a bad father
- I am a bad husband
- I am even a bad friend
- I almost can’t stand negative feedback, but most of time I keep it inside without reactions outside, ( I earn it)
- I feel guilty about being bad on all these things and always have felt guilty. Guilt drains me. I suppose I tried to buy better self-esteem by performing all kind of things. It took me 20 years to notice it will not work.

I know intellectually this conditioning of mind is delusion, but most of the time I’m still stuck in delusion of that identity.

When looking about self, there is some aspects which are “looser”:
- I don’t seem to control things. Things just happen by the laws of nature, cause and effect.
- When I look carefully, I neither can separate seer from seeing, doer from doing, even thinker from thinking. But when I think for example “Should I” or “Should’t I” there is a self. I seem to own my intention. (believe intellectually it is an illusion but that’s how I feel)

These things said I like to mention that past weeks there have been some experiences which are worth mentioning. I have had disorienting feelings about reality (compared with reality as I have always seen it). This has happened few times in short timeframes and always outside. Someway I have “felt/seen” everything working and acting automatically, and seen myself as a little puzzlepiece of everything. Reality expands or/and myself shrinks and somehow also dissolves a bit. It is relieving and scary feeling at the same time. View expands somehow as if you zoom out. But it doesn’t last long. The self jumps out of the puzzle on the puzzle and zooming in happens and then there is a seer again.

I don’t know if these experiences are mind-made experiences as a result of desperately wanting something to change. Maybe I’m just fooling myself onto it...Can't be sure.

Hope you understand at least partially what I’m saying. And hope that answered to your question.

Chape

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:18 pm

English is not my first language, but I prefer to do this in English and try my best
Thanks for telling me this, I will try to keep my language simple.
Myself feels like separate entity with identity with all stories about past and future
Ok so there are two things here:
FEELS LIKE
and
STORIES

'feels like' says to me sensations and emotions
'stories' says to me images and words (thoughts)
So I read your sentence as:
My self is made of sensations, images and words.

Does that make any sense?

Thank you for your honesty about the guilt and the self-esteem issues. I really appreciate that.
I feel guilty about being bad on all these things and always have felt guilty.
Yes, most of the ideas you presented there are all versions of an I that is doing things wrong (and then feeling guilty about it)

Can you describe to me what this guilty feeling is in basic terms of what sensations happen in the body?
Ignore the ideas just for a moment and focus only on the sensations that are being labelled 'guilty'.

I don’t seem to control things.
We will look into this in more detail just to check. This can be tricky.
Does it feel like something is controlling the body right now, the typing on the keyboard?
I neither can separate seer from seeing, doer from doing, even thinker from thinking.
You still talk as if there are really 2 things, this is useful information for me, we will cover all this.
But when I think for example “Should I” or “Should’t I” there is a self.
Ok great, we have a lead on our search! We need to search, honestly to find this self that seems to be there.
So think some thoughts about 'should I, shouldn't I' and then look at the experience (seeing hearing, touching and thoughts) and describe to me the self you mention here that appears.
This has happened few times in short timeframes and always outside. Someway I have “felt/seen” everything working and acting automatically, and seen myself as a little puzzlepiece of everything.
It is relieving and scary feeling at the same time
These experiences sound relevant but don't make too much out of them. If perceptual weirdness happens, think of it as a 'side-effect' of starting to see things more clearly. It will go soon enough. If it gets too scary, let me know.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:56 pm

My working time is different almost every day, so sometimes I will post in the morning, sometimes in the evening. But try to post every day. (Time zone GMT/UTC + 02:00 hour). I hope that is ok.
My self is made of sensations, images and words.
Yes thats true. Mainly sensations and thoughts and more sensations depending on contents of thoughts.
what this guilty feeling is in basic terms of what sensations happen in the body?
Physical sensations when feeling quilty is basically the same as when feeling anxious. Subtle tightness around chest and throat. Heartbeats may become sensible. Subtle but uncomfortable feeling of nausea in stomach. And dizziness in head. Intensity of feeling varies. If feeling grows really strong and when on its top, it is very difficult to try to look it from outside. Luckily for the most part feeling is softer, and it is possible to investigate.

When I think about this now, and when I try to compare body sensations of feeling guilty with body sensations with anxiety - it is the same. The only difference (as I see it now) is that there is no spesific story in mind when anxious, but many stories when feeling quilty.
Does it feel like something is controlling the body right now, the typing on the keyboard?
No, I'm using touch typing system with ten fingers and there is just words appearing in mind and typing happens without anybody even thinking about typing. Typing goes into same category as cycling, muscle memory takes care of it.
So think some thoughts about 'should I, shouldn't I' and then look at the experience (seeing hearing, touching and thoughts) and describe to me the self you mention here that appears.
This one is harder nut to crack but I'll try.
I'm meditating in my chamber, wife is not at home. Hearing children start to argue with each other. This breaks concentration. Feeling of annoyance arises, noting this feeling happens and investigation of this feeling happens in some degree. But concentration is gone and mind takes over starting to think: "Shoud I wait and see how it goes? Maybe they get settled this by themselves. Or shoud I get up and make them stop it before it gets worse. I can do it if I decide, but is it skillful action to do it?" I hesitate and wait 2 more minutes thinking about "should I or shouldn't I" then I get up and go and got it stopped.

There was an "I" who, started to think ande made decision. In a concentrated mind state there was just observation of breath sensations. When concentration broke followed by negative mind state, the self appeared, thought, and made decision. The self was present in thinking and decision-making - not so obviously in acting.

Has another example but the pattern is exactly the same so its not worth bringing it here.

Btw, this guiding method feels useful already now. It forces to look things straightforward as they are, without complicating things. I really appreciate your help Hannah.

Metta

Chape

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:12 pm

GMT/UTC + 02:00 hour). I hope that is ok.
I may also post at different times as I work long hours, that's fine
Mainly sensations and thoughts and more sensations depending on contents of thoughts.
Good, yes, like a feedback loop....sensations...thought about the sensations and what they mean....more sensations....
When I think about this now, and when I try to compare body sensations of feeling guilty with body sensations with anxiety - it is the same. The only difference (as I see it now) is that there is no spesific story in mind when anxious, but many stories when feeling quilty.
Really great looking there!
This in itself should start to undermine the assumed 'truth' of thoughts stating 'I am anxious' 'I am guilty'

Now, when this happens again, or any strong emotions, look again at the sensations, then the thoughts whose content might be something like 'i am feeling...'
then look outside of all that for a separate entity, this self which is assumed to be the one feeling and experiencing he sensations and thoughts.
What is found?

Typing goes into same category as cycling, muscle memory takes care of it.
What about the content of the words appearing on the screen? Is anything to be found making these particular letters be tapped out in this order?
But concentration is gone and mind takes over starting to think: "Shoud I wait and see how it goes? Maybe they get settled this by themselves. Or shoud I get up and make them stop it before it gets worse. I can do it if I decide, but is it skillful action to do it?" I hesitate and wait 2 more minutes thinking about "should I or shouldn't I" .....


then I get up and go and got it stopped.
Ok, so what i'm seeing here is some thoughts about getting up or not. Then the action. That is association but not cause.

I've put a gap in the quote to show the point we need to be looking at.
That momemt between all those thoughts and the getting up (the action)
Are those thoughts making that action happen?
If so in that gap should be some sort of evidence of how that occurs.
Is something else in that gap making the action happen?
Take a look.

There was an "I" who, started to think ande made decision
Ok, so I is the thinker of thoughts?

Is that how thoughts work?
Examine the 'voice in the head' carefully.
Is there any evidence of a thinker choosing thoughts as they arise?
Think of your ideal car, the model, the colour.
Where did that image come from? Where does it go?


things are going great, your apporach is just right. Just keep looking at my questions in a relaxed way, using the current experience and this will go fine

x
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:15 pm

look outside of all that for a separate entity, this self which is assumed to be the one feeling and experiencing he sensations and thoughts.
What is found?
I have practised not to identify me with emotions a while. I have done it like this before:
"I have this challenging emotion but it is not me, I have no control to these sensations, and they will pass away hopefully soon. I should learn to detach emotions from myself and identification. Sticking myself to emotions just gives them more power" That's it. Have not looked for I or separate entity because of the assumption that it is somewhere. This thing with no separate entity is quite new to me, but I will try to investigate this more carefully and look for an I in these events when possible.

That said, have noticed that emotions have lost some of their powers with earlier practise mentioned. But separate entity has been present in that practise as owner of these emotions and as doer of this practise. Separate entity have tried to avoid getting identified with difficult emotions which happens to separate entity.
What about the content of the words appearing on the screen? Is anything to be found making these particular letters be tapped out in this order?
Certain conditions have to be fulfilled that typing can happen - computer, keyboard, thoughts about answering this post, thoughts about words and sentences, learned skill to type etc... There are thoughts of the typer appearing when thinking about it, but these are not necessary for typing to happen.

If looking at the very moment, I can't see anyone doing typing. Just thoughts and typing.
That momemt between all those thoughts and the getting up (the action)
Are those thoughts making that action happen?
If so in that gap should be some sort of evidence of how that occurs.
Is something else in that gap making the action happen?
I have to break this in pieces.
A) Noise
B) Hearing noise followed by mind agitating.
c) Thoughts (should I or shouldn't I and thoughts about decision making)
D) Action

For D to happen, any other parts can't be removed without replacing them with something else. If we do some replacements or add other parts, outcome (action) would probably be different. But in the sequence of A-D, part C probably caused assumption that I made the desicion, because it feels that there is only me that had these thoughts. And without these thoughts action would probably not been happened.

But to answer your questions:
There is nothing between thoughts and action.
Thoughts didn't "make" the action happen, but action wouldn't have happened without thoughts (or any other part). There is interdependence between all parts.

I don't know if this makes sense but this is how I see it.
Ok, so I is the thinker of thoughts?
"I" exists only in the content of thoughts. Content of thought cannot think. (analysing this intellectually now, there is a strong habit to think: "I think").
Is there any evidence of a thinker choosing thoughts as they arise?
Think of your ideal car, the model, the colour.
Where did that image come from? Where does it go?
No, thoughts and images come and go as they do. There is no choosing, no control. Can't find any particular place where they come from, and don't know where they go. Thoughts can be stored as memories in mind in some degree but that is all I know. I have some experiential understanding of this based on meditation practise.
Just keep looking at my questions in a relaxed way, using the current experience and this will go fine
Thanks for encouragement :-). Try to do my best

Chape

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Hannah B-T
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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:07 pm

ok this is different to what we are doing here-
"I have this challenging emotion but it is not me, I have no control to these sensations, and they will pass away hopefully soon. I should learn to detach emotions from myself and identification. Sticking myself to emotions just gives them more power"
This still assumes there is an I here that is having the emotion, and that can control to detach and de-identify.
We are going further and even questioning this.
But separate entity has been present in that practise as owner of these emotions and as doer of this practise. Separate entity have tried to avoid getting identified with difficult emotions which happens to separate entity.
Ok, so can you describe this separate entitiy to me you talk about here?
How does it appear, in this moment?
As sensations? Sound? Images? Words? smells? tastes?
Certain conditions have to be fulfilled that typing can happen -
this is mental deduction. There is inherently nothing wrong with this, but it is the wrong tool to use in this inquiry. I will point out when you are doing this.
If looking at the very moment, I can't see anyone doing typing. Just thoughts and typing.
There we go. :)
But to answer your questions:
There is nothing between thoughts and action.
Nice looking
Thoughts didn't "make" the action happen, but action wouldn't have happened without thoughts
Is that an assumption? Above you said nothing could be found in the gap.
So where is the evidence that action doesn't happen without thought?
When you walk, is there thought saying 'move left leg up 3 inches, then move weight of body forward...'
So which actions require thought and which do not?
"I" exists only in the content of thoughts. Content of thought cannot think. (analysing this intellectually now, there is a strong habit to think: "I think").
Yes. It's honestly as simple as that.
But again is this a logical deduction?
Or something that is evident from the experience happening right now?
There is no choosing, no control. Can't find any particular place where they come from, and don't know where they go. Thoughts can be stored as memories in mind in some degree but that is all I know. I have some experiential understanding of this based on meditation practise.
Great.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:51 am

It seems to demand concentration and effort to stay in current experience and understanding (and not to try to give you "right" answers).
This still assumes there is an I here that is having the emotion, and that can control to detach and de-identify.
We are going further and even questioning this.
Fine, I understand this. If this works out, there will be nothing to glue emotions on and nothing to detach from.
Ok, so can you describe this separate entitiy to me you talk about here?
How does it appear, in this moment?
As sensations? Sound? Images? Words? smells? tastes?
In this moment it appears as story (words and images), which is now been questioned. It has nothing to do with 5 senses.
Is that an assumption? Above you said nothing could be found in the gap.
So where is the evidence that action doesn't happen without thought?
When you walk, is there thought saying 'move left leg up 3 inches, then move weight of body forward...'
So which actions require thought and which do not?


Yes, there is nothing but interdependence in the gap. Thoughts as cause and action as effect. Inderdependence is an assumption in thoughts, but it makes sense. But it is only in mind. Interdependence cannot be experienced throught 5 senses.

If somebody told me in Portuguese that I have ink on nose tip, probably no action would happen, because I don't understand Portuguese language. If somebody told me same thing in English, thoughts and images about ink would arise followed by action (cleanig it). This my current understanding about thoughts as cause and action as effect.
Yes. It's honestly as simple as that.
But again is this a logical deduction?
Or something that is evident from the experience happening right now?
Right now, when concentrating and looking carefully this is evident. Most of the time it is not evident. Habit of thinking "I think" come back when not concentrating. Haven't found any switch to turn habit off.

FYI: We''ll spend Easter holiday at the cottage with family, leaving tomorrow coming back on monday. There is only unstable mobile internet, but keep trying to post daily if it can be done. If not, then you know the reason.

Chape

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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:25 pm

It seems to demand concentration and effort to stay in current experience and understanding (and not to try to give you "right" answers).
Yes, there is a whole lifetime of the default position being to go to the content of thoughts to provide the answer to questions. It can feel like a strain or unfamiliar to go to the current experience instead, especially to start with, but it's just a skill, it gets easier.
If the answer is genuinely trying to express the current experience rather than resorting back to learnt ideas, then it is the right answer ;)
Fine, I understand this. If this works out, there will be nothing to glue emotions on and nothing to detach from.
So you are saying there is and has really been something, a self that gets emotions glued onto or detaches from? Right now can that self be found?
In this moment it appears as story (words and images), which is now been questioned. It has nothing to do with 5 senses
Great looking.
So now it's a case of keep checking to see if the self EVER appears as anything more than story words and images...
Inderdependence is an assumption in thoughts, but it makes sense. But it is only in mind. Interdependence cannot be experienced throught 5 senses.
Good.
I'm not asking you to give up the model of interdependance. Just like the model of science, or architecture, or music, it can be very beautiful and also useful to navigate day to day life.
But its also very useful to see that it is just a conceptual model, not actually part of the raw experience.
Right now, when concentrating and looking carefully this is evident. Most of the time it is not evident. Habit of thinking "I think" come back when not concentrating. Haven't found any switch to turn habit off.
Haha, if you find that switch let me know, I haven't found it either. :)
But I have found it useful to ask 'Is this necessary?'
so if and when you notice the train of 'i' thoughts again, just ask 'is this neccesary'
not to make anything go away, but just to see if it's possible to 'tune out' of all that and get more back to the perceptual experience, which is usually a lot clearer and simpler.
We''ll spend Easter holiday at the cottage with family, leaving tomorrow coming back on monday
That's fine. whenever you can.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:17 am

It can feel like a strain or unfamiliar to go to the current experience instead, especially to start with, but it's just a skill, it gets easier.
Yes, it takes effort to go to current experience, but going there seems to pay off. When self have not been found anywhere but in content of thoughts, feeling is cleaner, lighter and more relaxed.

So you are saying there is and has really been something, a self that gets emotions glued onto or detaches from? Right now can that self be found?
Yes, this something is messy network of thoughts about identity and past. But these are just thoughts stored as memory. Right now when looking direct can't find anything but thoughts.
So now it's a case of keep checking to see if the self EVER appears as anything more than story words and images...
Have been reflecting on this a couple of days now. I struggle with concept of ownership of sensations which are assumed not to be sensed by other people. For example "My thoughts" or "My knee pain". By default this feels like subject is sensing object. Subject is caused by assumption that there is only me that are able to experience this sensation at the moment. When investigating this, subject can only been found in assumptions (again), which are thoughts. Is there other ways to look that and try to break subject-object experience setup?

C

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Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:33 am

Yes, it takes effort to go to current experience, but going there seems to pay off. When self have not been found anywhere but in content of thoughts, feeling is cleaner, lighter and more relaxed.
Yes
Yes, this something is messy network of thoughts about identity and past. But these are just thoughts stored as memory. Right now when looking direct can't find anything but thoughts.
Nice
Keep checking this, yes, emotional reactions are more difficult to look into because it can all feel very 'messy' as you say. That's ok. At the moment just get really clear if there is or not a separate self creating or having the emotional state.
I struggle with concept of ownership of sensations which are assumed not to be sensed by other people.
This is often a sticking point, that is ok.

First point here is the nature of ownership.

Second point is the nature of 'others', which is obviously related to how 'self' is being seen, as they are two sides of the same process.

So let's first off look at ownership itself, as that's often a bit easier.

Think about a variety of things that in normal conversation you would say 'I own this'

MY tv
MY house/apartment
MY car/bike
MY money
MY job

then go to this level
MY partner
MY children
MY parents

Then go to this level
MY body
MY emotions
MY life

take a good look at each of these, notice if any reaction/sensations/emotions come up that seem to reinforce the 'MINE'.
Can a self able to possess any of this be found?
What would that be and how would that possession really operate?

If any of these seem more tricky, be honest and we can look closer x
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:44 am

MY money
Money felt most difficult topic of the first group... Asking my money or just money?
"First thoughts of resistance: No way, it is not just money, it is all mine. I have been working my ass of for twenty years to save them." Then tried to look deeper, but that didn't happen so easy. Just mind shouting "ALL MINE". Had to try different angle and ask what does the verb "possess" or "own" mean and what is money. They have their meanings in society as concepts. They are concepts inside a concept. The sentence: I have 100 euro in bank account = Concept has a concept (of money) in conceptual place. Concepts seems to be everywhere (I, to own, society, money, bank account etc) In direct experience none of them exist.

So if we look this moment in direct experience, there is not such thing as possessing. But in a concept of society there is concepts such as ID, bank account, assets and possessing. Lucky me! Didn't lose savings.
MY partner
MY children
MY parents


These can be accepted not to be mine much easier. Can truly see them as expressions of life, who we happen to share life with. And with some of them the we happen to share some dna. Actually I believe all of this is what it is for a reason, but reasons are beyond my understanding. This can sound religious but this is how I feel.
MY body
MY emotions
This part is most difficult and creates thoughts about subject and object. I can feel/hear my heartbeat while meditating. Right now I have sense of vibrating pressure in the forehead. Others can't sense that. It is again an assumption and can't be proved to be right throught direct experience but that assumption makes sense. My knee pain is my pain, because others can't sense it. Ownership of feelings and body parts happens only in thoughts, but this is sticky. And illusion of self happens in only in thoughts too, doesn't it. Any advice how to try to look this part more deeply.
MY life
This pair of words sounds somehow different, dramatic and even not genuine for me. Life is life. It can not be owned.

Could you tell me more about the "nature of ownership" you mentioned? What did you mean by that?

C

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Hannah B-T
Posts: 1018
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:38 am

Re: ITTR

Postby Hannah B-T » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:52 am

Just mind shouting "ALL MINE".
This made me laugh. Yes sometimes the mind is like a spoilt toddler throwing toys out of the pram :)
They have their meanings in society as concepts. They are concepts inside a concept.
Exactly. These concepts have a function, but suffering comes when it is really believed there is a person here who truly posesses anything.
Lucky me! Didn't lose savings.
When I do this exercise face to face and is it clear, I then say to the person, ok then, so can i have your wallet now? Guess what, no-one has given it to me yet ;)
Life is life. It can not be owned.
Nice
Could you tell me more about the "nature of ownership" you mentioned? What did you mean by that?
You've pretty much covered it. It's about seeing through the concept there is really truly something here that can own or posess something else (i.e a separate self) and that that i all just functional concepts as you have expressed.
Ownership of feelings and body parts happens only in thoughts, but this is sticky. And illusion of self happens in only in thoughts too, doesn't it. Any advice how to try to look this part more deeply.
oh yes, lots :)

Sit quietly with eyes closed and just focus on a strong sensation in the body, heart beating, aching knee whatever. Look carefully if any words or images are coming up around that (I'm in pain or a picture of the body part in the minds eye)
Then when you feel confident you are looking only at the raw sensation itself ask:

Is there anything about this raw sensation saying or communicating anything about 'me/mine/Chape'?

Eventually you can do this with all the sensations of the body but best to start with small areas.
Tell me what is found.
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Chape
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:37 am

Re: ITTR

Postby Chape » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:16 am

Yes sometimes the mind is like a spoilt toddler throwing toys out of the pram :)
:-) Yes. This begins to sink in...It's is actually tragic how much energy and time is wasted when believing in erratic mind and thoughts, trying to protect illusion. Feeling sad about all those years or even decades...
suffering comes when it is really believed there is a person here who truly posesses anything.
Yes. Looking at this thing with all concepts vs DE has been eye opening. Still digesting this, but it makes absolutely sense. There are no concepts found in DE (except in contents of thoughts).
Then when you feel confident you are looking only at the raw sensation itself ask:

Is there anything about this raw sensation saying or communicating anything about 'me/mine/Chape'?
Used over 20 minutes to get to that point with pure raw sensation. It is the same thing that happens in meditation. When concentration is deep enough, absorption to sensation happens. At that point there is no communication between subject and object, no ownership to sensation no thoughts or images about location. Just sensation itself. This is quite clear in concentrated mind state (eyes closed). I have always been thinking this is just a state and not necessarily pointing to reality. And thus by default, in daily life, experienced body sensations as subject-object experience without questioning. But in this moment, when typing and fingers feels cold, looking at that, concentrating on coldness alone, raw sensation is still there. On the other hand, in subject-object experience there are always thoughts and/or images about body part/location.

Thanks again Hannah. Really appreciate your guidance!

Metta
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