Living in the now

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Jobie
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Living in the now

Postby Jobie » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:23 pm

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I attended a Satsang run by ILona Ciunaite and heard about Liberation Unleashed as many of the beings present had joined LU and we're now guides. I have been going to advaita Satsangs for many years but never had any guided help until very recently. I understand the concept and had seeing but the true seeing has not been awakened in me. By joining this forum, I am hoping for this place to be truly recognised.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
To find a safe place where I can be free to express my true beingness and a caring and gentle guide to work with to help in a true seeing of the illusory separate self. That we are all one. This is my life commitment and only aim.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?

I lived in London until recently and attended many Satsangs trying to understand duality and non duality and that there is no separate self. I have watched many of Mooji's Satsangs and have done three virtual retreats on line with him in silence.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 10

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JonathanR
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Re: Living in the now

Postby JonathanR » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:10 pm

Hello Jobie,

Welcome to LU, again! I have just realised that we were both at that meeting in Worthing!

My mame is Jon and I am happy to guide you if you like?

You say:
. the true seeing has not been awakened in me. By joining this forum, I am hoping for this place to be truly recognised.
Let's do our best to arrive at this then...
. To find a safe place where I can be free to express my true beingness and a caring and gentle guide to work with to help in a true seeing of the illusory separate self.
This is what we are here for. We will simply have a conversation, a chat as between friends if you like? I will point towards the illusion and it will be for you to take a look. All our efforts will focus on one thing, for you to see or make the realisation that there is no self.
. That we are all one
I can't necessarily point towards all of us being one, but I will point towards a non-separation, a non-duality. Does that sound OK to you?

Best wishes,

Jon

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Jobie
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Re: Living in the now

Postby Jobie » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:55 am

Hello Jon

I had a good feeling in my heart when I read your message. I feel we can work together well as your caring and gentle nature comes through. Thank you for offering to be my guide. I genuinely do appreciate it.

Interesting that we met at ILona's Satsang recently but unfortunately, I can't remember who you were in the group, only the beings sitting next to me. Lawrence, on the left, who I have been in contact with since, and ? on the right, but remember him well.

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Jobie
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Re: Living in the now

Postby Jobie » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:56 am

Previous message sent by mistake before finished.

Thank you Jon

Jobie

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JonathanR
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Re: Living in the now

Postby JonathanR » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:46 am

Hello Jobie,


Ah. I remember you now, from the placement you describe. I was one beyond the guy to your right.

I'm glad you feel we can work together well :-)

As I said, what will happen here is that we will have a conversation. It's my job as guide to ask questions, to point towards no self and to help a little bit with focus. It will be up to you to take a look at your experience. I will not be giving you new views or beliefs but simply pointing.

A daily exchange is best, if possible. Will that work for you?

I know that you wrote down what you hope for already. Thank you. Please have a think and a look at what you would like to get out of our conversation, any hope or expectations, however big or insignificant and let me know?

You may have noticed that I quoted some of your introduction in my first reply, highlighting sections with an orange-yellow background colour? This can be very useful and I encourage you to use it sometimes. Here is a good little video that exlains how it can be done:

https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?t=29

Now, in order to get the ball rolling, please let me know what is your current understanding of what 'you' are?

Best wishes,

Jon

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Jobie
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Re: Living in the now

Postby Jobie » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:16 pm

I know with the mind, I am awareness, a soul with a body here to experience life as a human being. I do allow life to happen mostly without control and can live in the now occasionally. This is all very recent. But I still feel as a separate 'person' and live that way particularly when with others. At home, I can be in the awareness state. I have been taken to this space many times and recognised emptiness, nothingness but cannot acknowledge that as who I am!! I am aware I get very confused with words and expressing myself. As a child, I couldn't speak to be understood until 5 years of age so I am told!! I have been aware of awareness for many years but never known what it was!! A friend gets very frustrated when I don't express who I am in the right way!!!! Tears are arising as I express this and a feeling of wanting to have a really good cry - which I am. I am trying to meet this in the heart as ILona showed me but at the moment I want to just continue to cry. A belief - I am always wrong and not good enough which this friend is showing me although she doesn't life life as she speaks to me, of course.

Have never talked about this with anyone, despite being a counsellor at Mind and had lots of counselling myself as a supposed separate person!!!

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JonathanR
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Re: Living in the now

Postby JonathanR » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:45 am

Hello Jobie,
mostly without control and can live in the now occasionally. This is all very recent. But I still feel as a separate 'person' and live that way particularly when with others. At home, I can be in the awareness state. I have been taken to this space many times and recognised emptiness, nothingness but cannot acknowledge that as who I am!! I am aware I get very confused with words and expressing myself. As a child, I couldn't speak to be understood until 5 years of age so I am told!! I have been aware of awareness for many years but never known what it was!! A friend gets very frustrated when I don't express who I am in the right way!!!! Tears are arising as I express this and a feeling of wanting to have a really good cry - which I am. I am trying to meet this in the heart as ILona showed me but at the moment I want to just continue to cry. A belief - I am always wrong and not good enough which this friend is showing me although she doesn't life life as she speaks to me, of course.

Have never talked about this with anyone, despite being a counsellor at Mind and had lots of counselling myself as a supposed separate person!!!
Thank you for this beautiful, honest reply.

I should just explain something to avoid misunderstanding. Though I will point to the absence of a self this will not lead to nihilism. Sometimes the idea of no self can strike people as negation in some way. Actually it is liberation and freedom from the constraint of false identification with a limited and confusing idea.. That's all.

Please take a little time to look into your own experience and let me know if a feeling of 'me' or 'I' or 'self' appears more in relation to the body, or to thought processes? Sometimes people feel that they are very much 'in the body', sometimes behind the eyes. other times it's all about being the thinker. What is your experience? How do you identify?


Best wishes,

Jon

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Jobie
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Re: Living in the now

Postby Jobie » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:10 am

Hello Jon

A difficult question to answer. Looking through my eyes was how realisation came 25 years ago that " something was watching everything I did and always had been there". I have no fear of annilism - it will be a relief not to have to support this believed in separate self. I am finding it a struggle at the moment since ILona's Satsang. Lots of tears and a feeling of isolation.

I am beginning to talk of the body as not MY body but whether that is just repeating learnt statements I'm not sure. Pain is arising, the body needs to be looked after etc. There has been a lot of sickness in the body so have identified this for a long time as my ( the separate self, Jobie's body).

To answer your question honestly, I don't really know what identifies me, I, or self, but I feel there is belief more in the doer I, I exist. I am alone, I'm trying to survive. Tears again! I am beginning to realise, thoughts are not real, mine, and the body is a vehicle for the soul, which I find easier to say than awareness. All that i have thought who I was in the past, I have just realised is belief and not substantiated by anything, and most of what is being said is mind based! No real knowing of any of it really. Very confused. Up till recently I felt very in control of my life (life) and was content, happy, but now everything seems to be falling apart, the mask is off, which I guess is part of the process and constant tears, which I have no idea what they are about.

I hope this has answered your enquiry and not a rambling!! and thank you Jon.

Jobie

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JonathanR
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Re: Living in the now

Postby JonathanR » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:47 pm

Hello Jobie,

Thanks again for your very informative and detailed reply. This helps me a lot in knowing where to point.
To answer your question honestly, I don't really know what identifies me, I, or self, but I feel there is belief more in the doer I, I exist. I am alone, I'm trying to survive
From what you say it looks like these are thoughts about being a separate entity? So we can start directly here.

Please bear with me whilst I ask you some questions that might at first seem faintly annoying. But it is necessary for me to start here and to ask you these:

How do you know that you are the doer?

How do you know that you exist?

How do you know that you are alone? (n what sense?)

Look at your experience and see if you can pinpoint exactly the entity that is trying to survive? Where is it> what does it look like?


Best wishes,

Jon

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Jobie
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Re: Living in the now

Postby Jobie » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:48 pm

Hello Jon

I would just like to comment how beautiful and loving your comments and questions resonate in me. Thank you.

In answer to your questions:-

I don't know I am the doer, just a belief I've had all my life as it has felt like I am the doer. It's coming from the mind.

I exist as what ? because I am alive and living each moment. A mind thought

Just a feeling I've had recently that I am alone. Struggling with loosing the belief I am a separate self!! Tears again! And I don't know why. This journey just feels a very lonely one although at the moment this is not true. I am in contact now with many more likened beings than ever before. I know this statement of being alone isn't true, Its not really about this but I don't know what. A mind thought.

I can't find an entity trying to survive, it is just a thought.

I'm realising all this is thought, not truth.

Regards

Jobie

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JonathanR
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Re: Living in the now

Postby JonathanR » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:48 pm

Hello Jobie,
I would just like to comment how beautiful and loving your comments and questions resonate in me. Thank you.
Thank you. That is lovely.
Just a feeling I've had recently that I am alone. Struggling with loosing the belief I am a separate self!! Tears again! And I don't know why. This journey just feels a very lonely one although at the moment this is not true.
Is there a struggle with loosing the belied that you are a separate self?

You mention tears. Do you feel that your heart is saying something?
I can't find an entity trying to survive, it is just a thought.

I'm realising all this is thought, not truth.
That is interesting. So you took a look and could not find the one that is 'trying to survive'?

About thought... are you the thinker of thoughts? Are thoughts 'yours'?
I don't know I am the doer, just a belief I've had all my life as it has felt like I am the doer. It's coming from the mind.
Thanks. Would you agree that a large part of feeling like the doer relates closely to things like choosing between alternatives, deciding, free-will?


Best wishes,

Jon

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Jobie
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Re: Living in the now

Postby Jobie » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:13 am

Hello Jon

Hello Jon

I looked forward to your reply this morning, as every morning, when I woke up but tears again came. Last night I was reading ILona's book and tears came again. There is an answer to this in one of your questions below. I look and write these answers in the morning before the day starts as all is quiet, Is this ok?, or should I get involved in the day then look at what is going on. Doubt is arising. Mind!!

I saw that the comment about the way your questions etc resonate, is the awareness in Jobie recognising the awareness in Jon (love).

I'm not aware there is a struggle to loose the separate self only a longing to find the truth. In a way there is a feeling, a struggle going on trying to get to this point of recognising there is no separate self but not I am fearful of loosing the separate self. I have never believed I would ever be on this path as only for others, not me, although this is slowly diminishing. Thoughts again.

Now you mention "do you feel the heart is saying something " yes I do, a longing to be recognised as awareness, love, home. Releasing a lot of sadness. I am still crying.

Some thoughts I guess feel are 'mine', where is the cat, I need to go shopping, phone the insurance company, practical thoughts, and some thoughts relating to answering the questions. But there are those that just come and go, are not mine, and need to be ignored, not engaged with, not given energy.

Yes, feelings of being the doer relates to making decisions, buying a new car, buying a new dress etc. Very similar to the answer regarding practical thoughts.

Thanks Jon

Jobie

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JonathanR
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Re: Living in the now

Postby JonathanR » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:19 am

Hello Jobie,
I looked forward to your reply this morning, as every morning, when I woke up but tears again came. Last night I was reading Ilona's book and tears came again
Thank you. It is a beautiful book, isn't it?. It's probably the best reading material that could run parallel to this inquiry.
There is an answer to this in one of your questions below. I look and write these answers in the morning before the day starts as all is quiet, Is this ok?, or should I get involved in the day then look at what is going on. Doubt is arising. Mind!!
Morning is good but to be honest, any time of day when you can give a little time and focus to the inquiry would do.

Don't worry about doubt. If it is experienced it will not prevent this inquiry from being successful. It will be addressed. You can afford to relax on that matter.

You mention Mind a few times as if mind is some kind of problem? Relax on this score if possible. The aspect of mind will be addressed and it won't continue to seem like a problem.

I'm not aware there is a struggle to loose the separate self only a longing to find the truth. In a way there is a feeling, a struggle going on trying to get to this point of recognising there is no separate self but not I am fearful of loosing the separate self.
Wonderful. The feeling of struggle at this point is quite natural. Not feeling fearful of loosing a separate self is really helpful.
I have never believed I would ever be on this path as only for others, not me, although this is slowly diminishing.
Yes. This feeling seems to be quite common.
Now you mention "do you feel the heart is saying something " yes I do, a longing to be recognised as awareness, love, home. Releasing a lot of sadness. I am still crying.
This is good. Heart is saying how it feels. Beautiful and wise heart. Give it a hug.
Some thoughts I guess feel are 'mine', where is the cat, I need to go shopping, phone the insurance company, practical thoughts, and some thoughts relating to answering the questions. But there are those that just come and go, are not mine, and need to be ignored, not engaged with, not given energy.
Try this following little exercise:

Can a thought be preveted from appearing? Try stopping a thought from happeneing.

Can a thought be created? Try creating a thought.

Notice what happens. Try it a few times to see. Let me know how it goes.


best wishes,

Jon

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Jobie
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Re: Living in the now

Postby Jobie » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:13 pm

Hello Jon

No I cannot really prevent a thought unless I focus to still the mind but they eventually come, so no control over them. When meditating more thoughts appear than I am normally aware of as mind appears quite quiet during the day.

I've just tried to create a thought about Xmas. But all is quiet. Then more undistinguishable thoughts come in.

So thoughts are not mine. I am not the owner or creator of them. I have observed for years what thoughts were about and realised they were all about what I had done in the past, critical comment comes up, and worry about how the future will be or rehearsing what I might say to someone.

So if they are not my thoughts I am not the thinker of them. So if I am not the thinker of them where do they come from and who am I?!

Thanks Jon

Jobie

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JonathanR
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Re: Living in the now

Postby JonathanR » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:50 pm

Hello Jobie,
So thoughts are not mine. I am not the owner or creator of them. I have observed for years what thoughts were about and realised they were all about what I had done in the past, critical comment comes up, and worry about how the future will be or rehearsing what I might say to someone.
This is a really good observation Jobie. Yes. Thoughts very often are about 'past' and 'future', aren't they? How true that regret seems associated with thoughts of past and anxiety about future.

Does it ever seem to you that past and future only exist in or as thoughts in any case? That there is no actual existent place 'the past' other than conceptually, as a memory in the form of thoughts, or as a shared idea about 'past'?

Is the same true of future? That it isn't a real place that exists but rather thoughts ABOUT 'future'?

Do you notice that thoughts about past and future are only ever happening in the present moment?
So if they are not my thoughts I am not the thinker of them. So if I am not the thinker of them where do they come from and who am I?!
Ah. Excellent questions Jobie! That is it.

You noticed that it is not really possible to prevent thoughts from appearing.

Important Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?


Thank you,

Jon


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