Looking for my true nature

[NappingCat]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I am already familiar with these concepts. I practiced mindfulness meditation intermittently for several years, but only in the past year have I truly come into contact with ideas related to nonduality, awakening, and liberation. Since then, I have begun devouring material—books, videos, podcasts, articles, and so on.

What are you looking for at LU?
In the last year I have intensified my meditation practice, and this has literally been taking up more and more space in my life, occupying my thoughts for much of the day, every day. I had some insight and I can see that the I is a thought that arises and the mind creates stories around it. I understand this intellectually, but there's still a part of me that is full of doubts and believes I'm only deluding myself with this practices.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'd like to have an honest conversation and to receive guidance, clarification and pointers that can help me see through the illusion. I need to uproot my beliefs. Right now I feel like I'm split between a part of me that feels this is it and the possibility of awakening is real and another part that's full of doubts. I also feel frustrated and I want to see some change.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been practicing vipassana and mindfulness on and off for about 10 years. In the last year I came into contact with nonduality teachers online, mainly Adyashanti, Angelo DiLullo (Simply Always Awake), Rupert Spira and Jim Newman. I consumed a lot of their content (videos, books, podcasts etc.) and that totally changed my approach. I starded doing self-inquiry every day multiple times. In the last month I mostly read about the 10 fetters and that kind of map (thanks to Kevin Schanilec).

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Conversation is just more thinking. I will ask you to LOOK and give you pointers about how to do that.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[NappingCat]

Hi Stacy! Thank you for helping me looking through this, I really appreciate it. I've read the disclaimer and I agree on everything. I'll be 100% honest here, no reason to lie.
You can call me Davide, I'm on Rome GMT+1 time.

Right now I can intellectually understand quite well that the "me" is only a thought and it relies on a series of other thoughts and beliefs. Some of these beliefs are hidden, and I think that's the main reason why it still feels like the ego could be real. There are still thoughts like "what if I'm only deluding myself?", "what if this is only an elaborated form of escapism?". There's always been a tendency to avoid situations that cause anxiety here, and this might be just a strategy of the mind to justify avoiding life.
Something happened just yesterday. I had a long inquiry section online with an awakened person and some of the ego game was revealed. There's been a release of energy from the body, shaking, laughing and some crying. A sense of loss and grief for the ego too. It lasted until this morning, then the ego came back.
I huge thing I saw through yesterday is how the ego believes that by doing certain things it will obtain other things, the "me" is always trying to be more or different, or to get something for himself. The story of the ego is very sad, he struggles so much and can never rest. Now at times there's a sense of pity and gratitude for him, like he is only trying to do his best even if he's only spinning his wheels.

How will life change?

Life is what it is, what happens in every moment. I guess the only thing that changes is that whatever arises is not felt anymore as "owned by the ego", so maybe no more getting caught in the ego story and believing it.

How will you change?

There will be less suffering? There will still be pain and bodily sensations but they will just happen to no one.

What will be different?

The need to control life will slowly disappear, as there's no one that can control it. Things will happen spontaneously and there will be no one that owns them or tries to control them.

What is missing?

Nothing, what is is already perfect and could not be different. There are only some beliefs that need to be looked into in order for them to dissolve.

Love

Davide

[Anastacia42]

Good, Davide.

There is no rho or "self" to come back. They do not exist


You started believing the lies your thoughts tell. That's all. We'll get there.

Your expectations are pretty reasonable. Now...

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[NappingCat]

Hi Stacy, thank you for your reply!

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

There is some disbelief, there are still thoughts that say "This can't be true", "There must be something you missed", "You are deluding yourself", "This is just escapism", "You're not smart enough to get this or to awake". I can see that these are just thoughts, but they are powerful and cause reactions in the body (fear, anxiety, tension). There is also the thought "You need to be 100% sure, there can't be any doubt".

When the illusory nature of the me is seen more clearly there is also a little sadness about all the unnecessary suffering that happened in the past. Years of suffering because of an illusion.

This is all for now.

Love

Davide

[Anastacia42]

Thank you. Good awareness.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

I can see that these are just thoughts, but they are powerful and cause reactions in the body (fear, anxiety, tension).

Thoughts are actually flimsy. They have no substance at all. What is actually happening is a body Sensation that is then labelled & interpreted.

For example, what are the body Sensationd of "fear?"

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[NappingCat]

Hi Stacy, yeah this is very clear.

For example, what are the body Sensationd of "fear?"

Fear in that case is just contraction, tenseness (mostly in the chest, neck and jaw area) and the heart beating a little faster.

[Anastacia42]

Yes!

Now what are the body Sensations of excitement?

Loving,

[NappingCat]

Now what are the body Sensations of excitement?

Warmth rising, some vibration, maybe "alertness" if that is a sensation.

[Anastacia42]

Okay. Usually fear & excitement are nearly the same & only the interpretations are different.

So, now this:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[NappingCat]

Hi Stacy!

Here's what I came up with:

Opening the window shutters
Hand on the window handle = sensation
Seeing the view outside = color/image
Hearing the traffic = sound
Closing the window = sensation

Drinking water from a bottle
Opening the bottle = sensation
Bottle touching the lips = sensation
Water in the mouth = sensation
Swallowing water = sensation

Driving
Hands on the wheel = sensation
Engine starting = sound
Driving on the street = color/image
Stopping at the traffic light = sensation
Hearing other cars = sound

Watching a movie
Watching the screen = color/image
Hearing an actor speak = sound
Thinking about the plot = thought
Hearing other people laugh = sound

Going to the grocery store
Walking in the aisle = sensation
Looking at shelves = color/image
Grabbing a product = sensation
Reading the ingredients = thought
Evaluating the product = thought
Smelling a fresh product = smell

Riding a bike
Pushing on the pedals = sensation
Feeling the air on the face = sensation
Looking at the street = cplor/image
Seeing a car coming = color/image
Thinking about avoiding collision = thought
Hearing sound of car approaching from behind = soind

Hope that's ok!

Love,

Davide

[Anastacia42]

Excellent.

Now try this:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


Loving,

[NappingCat]

Hi Stacy! Thank you again for your guidance. I just did what you told me. Here are the answers.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The no-I version feels closer to reality, to what it is. It just describes what is happening without adding extra stuff. Feels more in the present moment. The I-version adds an extra label that is not really necessary.

2. What is here without labels?

Just this. This happening and changing endlessly in every moment, stopping at nothing because it's everything and anything. Any word feels inadequate at describing it, because it has no boundaries. Labels are just thoughts reflecting what is. Even this thoughts and words being written now are part of it and are happening and being accepted with no resistance by this. It's very hard to describe and impossible to describe accurately. Nothing can really be described with words. Words always fail and are just a loose copy of this.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do not affect reality in any way. This just happens to no one for no reason and the thoughts are just a part of it, reflecting sounds, colors, shapes, sensations, feelings and other thoughts. Even the concept of "thought", "shape" etc. are just more thoughts appearing.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

The body does its thing. When the I-thought is present there are more feelings in reactions to thoughts. Looks like the body reacts to thoughts that are related to the me character. Looks like there is cause-effect where the thoughts cause bodily sensations or vice versa.

I think I was already aware of all of this, due to years of meditation, so this exercise didn't give me any particular insight. Feels like the resistance that is still here has more to do with doubt and beliefs that are hidden but still there. For example:

- "Did the past really happen?" I know that the past is only a concept and, like the future, is only experienced in the present moment, but where does the coherence of the memories come from? Memories feel true because the story they tell is so coherent. The Davide character has always used logic and rationality to navigate life, so has learned to believe in logical truth, like 1+1=2 and the me doesn't want to give up that.

- "Am I just deluding myself?" Who is the one eventually being deluded? I don't know but sometimes it feels like I'm just trying to convince myself that I don't exist just because I don't want to suffer. I can perfectly see these are just thoughts appearing but they feel somewhat convincing, maybe because there are other beliefs underneath that I can't see.

Ok this is everything for now. I feel somewhat stuck, and I know even this is just a thought.

Much love,

Davide

[Anastacia42]

Hello,

Your answers are good. Another good answer for #2 is Direct Experience.

We are not looking for "insight." That's just more thinking. We're looking for a shift in perception.

For #4 we're looking at tension & relaxation in the torso, mostly the solar plexus or gut. The gut feeling.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example., but I think you know that.

Do you see that?

We can look at Time and Memory later. ;)

Loving,

[NappingCat]

Hi Stacy, thank you for your reply!

I thought about a lie I told to my father recently. I didn't want him to see me struggling or for him to judge me and so I lied.

What is found?

I don't notice any sensation in the gut.
Contraction and tension in the upper chest, shoulder and especially in the throat. That's where I feel the lie. I tried with other lies too.

Do you see that?

Yes, these are the same sensations that appear when I feel shame. When the me is involved in thoughts these sensations are very common.

Thank you

Davide