Greetings!

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca

Very good looking! But let’s address what needs further looking

My mind stubbornly insists that it is me that recognizes it.

So what is “mind” in DE? Can you touch it, see it, smell it….? And can it do things - like insists or argue, etc? How much of this is a figure of speech and how much is a belief?
There are thoughts about reality but is there a master mind - the manufacturer of thoughts?

One very good example of how words and language are just pointers to but not the actual DE, and how meaning is formed, is AI. GPT (Generative pre-trained transformers) are large language models that are based on the semantic relationships between words in sentences (natural language processing). GPT models are trained on a large amount of text. The training consists in predicting the next token (a token being usually a word, sub-word, or punctuation). Throughout this training, GPT models accumulate knowledge about the world, and can then generate “human-like” text by repeatedly predicting the next token. But does AI have any direct experience of what it’s talking about? And most importantly, is there an AI as an actual thing, or is it just an algorithm (set of rules)? Can an algorithm think, see, hear, etc? Besides the fact that there are no human beings (the point of this inquiry), we like to anthropomorphize - to attribute human traits, emotions, intentions, or behaviors to non-human entities, including animals, inanimate objects, and natural phenomena. The self-organisation of thoughts - their formation as a language structure, as well as their meaning formation and sequence - very much eliminates the need of a master mind with goals and agenda 🙂

No, though don't we influence what we think about? For example, I could have looked to my left and seen something that sparks a thought about whatever I laid eyes on. Even if I dont' know why I turned my head to the left, it still impacted my next thought.

That goes now into the domain of a chooser and decision maker so let’s inquire into that.
You gave the example that you could look to the left and that sparks a thought. So look carefully at that… Turn your head left or right right now.
Did you know you were going to turn your head before it happened?
Can you find the exact moment where a “you” decided it?
Or did the movement just happen… and then a thought appeared about it?
Now look at the next part. After turning your head, something is seen, and then a thought appears.
Did you choose what you would see?
Did you choose what thought would arise from it?
Or did seeing happen, then thought happen on their own?

Here are a couple exercises to explore decision making further. Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Blanca

Is everything OK?
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! My apologies. This weekend got unexpectedly busy, and I always want to make sure that when I do these exercises, I have enough time to really look and experience based on your questions. Please know that when you post I do immediately read it, and even if I'm unable to respond immediately, I spend my day thinking about it and trying to remind myself to "look" as much as possible. But I appreciate you checking in to see if I'm okay. :)

So what is “mind” in DE? Can you touch it, see it, smell it….? And can it do things - like insists or argue, etc? How much of this is a figure of speech and how much is a belief?
There are thoughts about reality but is there a master mind - the manufacturer of thoughts?

I don't actually know what the mind is in DE. I certainly can't see/touch/hear it. I suppose my "mind" is all the thoughts that arise. It isn't a single, autonomous engine that argues with me. (What's interesting is that I don't stop to think "who is the 'me' or 'I' that the mind stubbornly insists something to? Isn't that just another thought? Are my thoughts arguing with one another? And am "I" the observer?) So I do think this is both a figure of speech and a belief.

But does AI have any direct experience of what it’s talking about? And most importantly, is there an AI as an actual thing, or is it just an algorithm (set of rules)? Can an algorithm think, see, hear, etc?

It's just a set of rules. There is no direct experience behind the language.

The self-organisation of thoughts - their formation as a language structure, as well as their meaning formation and sequence - very much eliminates the need of a master mind with goals and agenda.

I had a difficult time understanding this point. Just because something is unnecessary, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But I take your point that thoughts self-organize and that we make meaning of it that is similar to anthropomorphizing. And that the meaning itself is just another thought.

Did you know you were going to turn your head before it happened?
Can you find the exact moment where a “you” decided it?
Or did the movement just happen… and then a thought appeared about it?

When I looked to my right, yes I did know it was going to happen because I read your instructions. Though I didn't know exactly when I was going to do it. And I didn't know exactly when I was going to turn my head in the opposite direction. I only knew I would. I don't think I can spot the decision to do it. It just happened when it happened.

Did you choose what you would see?
Did you choose what thought would arise from it?
Or did seeing happen, then thought happen on their own?

No, I definitely didn't choose what I would see or the thoughts that would arise from it. So are you saying that I don't influence it? I suppose the idea of "influence" is just another thought and that the movement, seeing, and thought that arises are spontaneous and lack a "driver."

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Ha! There ISN'T a controller! It just moved on its own! I never thought to myself, "okay, now time to turn it the other way." I just did it.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities and preferences just appeared.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

No I definitely didn't choose this sequence of events. I wasn't even aware of it. It just happened. I didn't directly experience an entity doing the choosing at all.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

No, nothing arose that announced "I" or any other entity made the choice. Though I did have the thought that I would choose drink B because I don't like drink A. But the thought that I don't like drink A certainly came from nowhere.

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Recently, we had to decide whether or not to stay in our current home or move to another town. It came to be because our rental lease was up for renewal and we wanted our son to be closer to his school. We recently moved from one state (province) to another that was very far geographically. We moved here because I've always wanted to live near the ocean and because we didn't like the neighborhood where we previously lived. Also, it was a good time for us to move because of our son hadn't yet started high school, which made the transition a bit easier. But once we moved to this new state, we found that our son wasn't thriving socially, which can be difficult for his age group. We thought maybe moving closer to his school (currently, we live 30 minutes away) might make things easier for him. We started looking for homes in the area, but when we visited these prospective apartments, we did not like them and our son was especially upset at the thought of moving again. We ultimately decided that moving twice in such a short amount of time was going to be too difficult for our son, who already had to give up his friends and community when we moved to this new state. Also, I really loved the place we live currently, which made us want to move even less. Ultimately, we decided to stay for another year.

I don't think that if any of those conditions were different or absent, the results would have been the same. They all had to happen in the way that it happened for us to decide to stay. I'd say that pretty much every decision was outside my influence. According to thought, what was under my control was the decision to act on my preference to live near the ocean. Though I'm having a hard time spotting the decision maker there. And when I really stop to look, it's hard to pin down exactly when the "decision was made." It just sort of happened and we organized our life around it.

Thank you as always for your generous time and encouragement.

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! My apologies. This weekend got unexpectedly busy, and I always want to make sure that when I do these exercises, I have enough time to really look and experience based on your questions. Please know that when you post I do immediately read it, and even if I'm unable to respond immediately, I spend my day thinking about it and trying to remind myself to "look" as much as possible. But I appreciate you checking in to see if I'm okay. :)

So what is “mind” in DE? Can you touch it, see it, smell it….? And can it do things - like insists or argue, etc? How much of this is a figure of speech and how much is a belief?
There are thoughts about reality but is there a master mind - the manufacturer of thoughts?

I don't actually know what the mind is in DE. I certainly can't see/touch/hear it. I suppose my "mind" is all the thoughts that arise. It isn't a single, autonomous engine that argues with me. (What's interesting is that I don't stop to think "who is the 'me' or 'I' that the mind stubbornly insists something to? Isn't that just another thought? Are my thoughts arguing with one another? And am "I" the observer?) So I do think this is both a figure of speech and a belief.

But does AI have any direct experience of what it’s talking about? And most importantly, is there an AI as an actual thing, or is it just an algorithm (set of rules)? Can an algorithm think, see, hear, etc?

It's just a set of rules. There is no direct experience behind the language.

The self-organisation of thoughts - their formation as a language structure, as well as their meaning formation and sequence - very much eliminates the need of a master mind with goals and agenda.

I had a difficult time understanding this point. Just because something is unnecessary, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But I take your point that thoughts self-organize and that we make meaning of it that is similar to anthropomorphizing. And that the meaning itself is just another thought.

Did you know you were going to turn your head before it happened?
Can you find the exact moment where a “you” decided it?
Or did the movement just happen… and then a thought appeared about it?

When I looked to my right, yes I did know it was going to happen because I read your instructions. Though I didn't know exactly when I was going to do it. And I didn't know exactly when I was going to turn my head in the opposite direction. I only knew I would. I don't think I can spot the decision to do it. It just happened when it happened.

Did you choose what you would see?
Did you choose what thought would arise from it?
Or did seeing happen, then thought happen on their own?

No, I definitely didn't choose what I would see or the thoughts that would arise from it. So are you saying that I don't influence it? I suppose the idea of "influence" is just another thought and that the movement, seeing, and thought that arises are spontaneous and lack a "driver."

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Ha! There ISN'T a controller! It just moved on its own! I never thought to myself, "okay, now time to turn it the other way." I just did it.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities and preferences just appeared.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

No I definitely didn't choose this sequence of events. I wasn't even aware of it. It just happened. I didn't directly experience an entity doing the choosing at all.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

No, nothing arose that announced "I" or any other entity made the choice. Though I did have the thought that I would choose drink B because I don't like drink A. But the thought that I don't like drink A certainly came from nowhere.

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Recently, we had to decide whether or not to stay in our current home or move to another town. It came to be because our rental lease was up for renewal and we wanted our son to be closer to his school. We recently moved from one state (province) to another that was very far geographically. We moved here because I've always wanted to live near the ocean and because we didn't like the neighborhood where we previously lived. Also, it was a good time for us to move because of our son hadn't yet started high school, which made the transition a bit easier. But once we moved to this new state, we found that our son wasn't thriving socially, which can be difficult for his age group. We thought maybe moving closer to his school (currently, we live 30 minutes away) might make things easier for him. We started looking for homes in the area, but when we visited these prospective apartments, we did not like them and our son was especially upset at the thought of moving again. We ultimately decided that moving twice in such a short amount of time was going to be too difficult for our son, who already had to give up his friends and community when we moved to this new state. Also, I really loved the place we live currently, which made us want to move even less. Ultimately, we decided to stay for another year.

I don't think that if any of those conditions were different or absent, the results would have been the same. They all had to happen in the way that it happened for us to decide to stay. I'd say that pretty much every decision was outside my influence. According to thought, what was under my control was the decision to act on my preference to live near the ocean. Though I'm having a hard time spotting the decision maker there. And when I really stop to look, it's hard to pin down exactly when the "decision was made." It just sort of happened and we organized our life around it.

Thank you as always for your generous time and encouragement.

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca

Thank you as always for your generous time and encouragement.

It’s my pleasure guiding you 🙂

This is very clear looking! You’re seeing a lot directly now. Let’s go into one key point you raised:

So are you saying that I don't influence it?

Look carefully here. You saw that movement happens, seeing happens, thoughts arise - all without a controller. Good.
Now check this… A thought appears saying “I influenced that”
Is that anything more than another thought?
Or is it a story added after the fact?
You described the sequence beautifully - something is seen, then a thought appears
Now look closer:
Did you choose what would be seen?
Did you choose what thought would arise?

They all had to happen in the way that it happened for us to decide to stay. I'd say that pretty much every decision was outside my influence. According to thought, what was under my control was the decision to act on my preference to live near the ocean. Though I'm having a hard time spotting the decision maker there. And when I really stop to look, it's hard to pin down exactly when the "decision was made." It just sort of happened and we organized our life around it.

I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before.
Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language.
What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?
Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening.
Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?
Furthermore...Can a moment of “decision” actually be found?
Or is there simply thoughts about options, thoughts about preferences and then “action”, all unfolding?
When the thought says: “I decided”, can you find anything behind that thought that did the deciding? Or is it just a label added afterward?
Don’t go to reasoning. Look in real time and report what is actually found.

Are my thoughts arguing with one another? And am "I" the observer?)

We’ll address this next:)
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - Making up for lost time here and responding right away.

A thought appears saying “I influenced that”
Is that anything more than another thought?
Or is it a story added after the fact?

It is definitely another thought. I couldn't identify an influencer behind the movement just using DE.

Did you choose what would be seen?
Did you choose what thought would arise?

No, I didn't choose what I would see or the thoughts that would arise as a result of the seeing.

I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning.

I actually think my example was perfect for this. I never felt like "I" made the decisions. It just seemed like these big events were happening and my family and I experienced it all. I have a difficult time identifying when the decisions were made, with one exception. I remember that "I made" the decision to move near the ocean when I was on a ship at sea. But why did I "make the decision" right then? And had I really made the decision? Isn't it just as reasonable that the decision was being built over time by preferences, experiences, locations, etc.? And that moment was merely the moment where I became aware of it all?
The truth is that for much of my life, I've struggled to identify and understand why I do the things I do. It has all felt chaotic and arbitrary and almost random. The story I told myself is that it meant I was an impulsive, chaotic person. That "normal" people were in possession of some self-mastery I couldn't access. It caused me a great deal of suffering. But the act of looking is revealing to me that we're all just experiencing our thoughts and feelings and sensations. Certain conditions make certain thoughts and feelings and sensations more likely than others, but no one is at the wheel "driving."

What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

The cause and effect don't exist outside of thought.

Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

No! Never thought about it that way before. Things just happen, whether we label it or not.

Furthermore...Can a moment of “decision” actually be found?
Or is there simply thoughts about options, thoughts about preferences and then “action”, all unfolding?

I think that's what I was saying above. There didn't seem to be any decision or decision maker. Just a bunch of thoughts about preferences and subsequent actions and then another thought applied the story after to explain things... oh my god I get what you're saying here! It's tremendous!

Wow, what a great session of looking I just had!

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca

Wow, what a great session of looking I just had!

Yes — this is very clear seeing. You described it perfectly:
thoughts about preferences → action → thought saying “I decided”
Now look one step deeper into this… A thought appears: “I decided”
Does that thought refer to anything real?
Or is it just a story appearing after the fact?

cause and effect don’t exist outside of thought

Good. So check this thoroughly:
Is there anything actually “causing” anything?
Or is there just: sensation, seeing, thought appearing?
Thought is just like that engaging commentator in a soccer match - commenting about a ball being passed :)

no one is at the wheel driving

Great! Look carefully:
Is anything missing without a driver?
Or is everything already functioning perfectly?

It just seemed like these big events were happening and my family and I experienced it all.

Good — now let’s look at this more closely in your example. Let’s check what is actually here in direct experience.
When you think of “your family”, what is actually present? Images? Thoughts? Maybe sensations?
Is there anything else besides that?
When you are physically with them, there is seeing (colours/shapes), there is hearing (sounds/voices), there may be sensations (touch). But look carefully:
Is there an actual “person” found in direct experience?
Or is there colour/shape (labelled “person”), sound (labelled “voice”), thought (labelled “my family”)
Is anything happening TO anyone?
(apply the cup of coffee exercise to daily activities involving “my son”, “my spouse”, “my family”)
This is not about denying anything. It’s about seeing clearly what is actually present.
Look and report what is found.
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali! Here are my thoughts on your last post:

Does that thought refer to anything real?
Or is it just a story appearing after the fact?

I would say it exists more as a concept than anything real when it comes to direct experience.

Is there anything actually “causing” anything?
Or is there just: sensation, seeing, thought appearing?

If I'm answering just based on my direct experience, no. Nothing is causing anything. There is just an endless series of sensation, seeing, and thought appearing.

Is anything missing without a driver?
Or is everything already functioning perfectly?

I'm struggling with this one. Wouldn't life be better if there was someone in control of things? Someone who is able to steer events and actions to avoid harm?

When you think of “your family”, what is actually present? Images? Thoughts? Maybe sensations?
Is there anything else besides that?

There are emotions and images and thoughts. There are sensations like touch and sound.

When you are physically with them, there is seeing (colours/shapes), there is hearing (sounds/voices), there may be sensations (touch). But look carefully:
Is there an actual “person” found in direct experience?
Or is there colour/shape (labelled “person”), sound (labelled “voice”), thought (labelled “my family”)
Is anything happening TO anyone?

When I step back and actually look, there are sounds, shapes, and thought forming the story of "my family." I can only say that it's the sum of their parts that emerges as the concept of "my family." It's hard not to see that things are happening to them. But I step back even more and look and see that they are all just life-ing. But I'm only able to glimpse this for a second before my brain reorganizes back into the old pattern of seeing them.

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
This is very clear looking. Let’s go directly to the point where resistance shows up:

Wouldn't life be better if there was someone in control of things? Someone who is able to steer events and actions to avoid harm?

Look carefully. Is that anything more than a thought?
Does it point to something real in direct experience?
Or is it an idea about how things should be?
You’ve already seen: no thinker, no decider, no controller. Yet life is happening. Breathing is happening. Thinking is happening. Decisions are happening. Your family is living, interacting, responding.
So look: is anything actually not working?
Or is there just a thought saying: “this would be better if I were in control”?

Go deeper into that thought:

to avoid harm

Can you control what thoughts appear?
Can you control what emotions arise?
Can you control what others do?
Or has everything always been unfolding based on conditions?

Now come back to what you saw:

they are all just life-ing

Good. Stay there. Even though it seems

I can only glimpse this for a second before my brain reorganizes

Look carefully: is something actually reorganizing?
Or are old thoughts simply appearing again?
Does that change what is true?
Right now, is there life happening, or someone separate from life that it is happening to?
Look very carefully and report what is actually found.
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali -

Is that anything more than a thought?
Does it point to something real in direct experience?
Or is it an idea about how things should be?

No, it's nothing more than a thought. One that doesn't point to something real in direct experience. Though I'd say it's closer to a wish of how things would be as opposed to an idea of how things could be, upon closer examination. Though both are still just thoughts.

is anything actually not working?
Or is there just a thought saying: “this would be better if I were in control”?

No, life continues to life, even without a "doer." So in that sense, nothing is missing. Though the preferences and thought patterns and emotions that have built up in my 43 years on earth have a strong need for control. Perhaps that's where my resistance stems from.

Can you control what thoughts appear?
Can you control what emotions arise?
Can you control what others do?

Ha! I wish. :) No, I have never had the ability to control what thoughts and emotions arise. I certainly never had the ability to control what others do.

Or has everything always been unfolding based on conditions?

This, I have always felt intuitively. But at the same time, I struggle against it when it comes to everything within my sphere of influence. That is, the people, places, and things with which I have regular contact. Some primitive part of me seems convinced that control is possible.

Look carefully: is something actually reorganizing?
Or are old thoughts simply appearing again?
Does that change what is true?
Right now, is there life happening, or someone separate from life that it is happening to?

No, it just feels like something is reorganizing. It's actually old thought patterns simply appearing again. And those thoughts don't change what is actually true. As for the last question, this is one of those instances where I know intellectually that it's life happening. But old thought patterns and emotions are blocking a more embodied knowing, if that makes sense. I look and I find no doer. I look and I find no center. I look and I find no inside and outside. And yet it isn't enough.

:/

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca,
This is exactly the point where it gets very subtle. It boils down to expectations…

I look and I find no doer… no center… no inside and outside… and yet it isn’t enough.

Look carefully at that. What is “not enough”?
Is that anything more than a thought?
Does “enough” exist anywhere in direct experience?
Or is it just seeing happening and a thought saying “this should feel different”

But old thought patterns and emotions are blocking a more embodied knowing,

Look at this closely.
Is anything actually being blocked? (no, really have a look - any barriers?)
Or is there simply clear seeing, plus thoughts and sensations appearing at the same time?
Do those thoughts block anything?
Or do they just appear?
Right now, in this moment, are there: seeing, hearing, sensation, thought all present?
Is anything missing from this?

You are expecting a different experience. You are expecting something more stable, more embodied, more certain… But check - is that expectation anything more than a thought? Is that even your expectation? Did you come up with it?
How is it possible to "maintain" something when you are present? Present moment is just one present moment, and has nothing to do with the duration of a certain state. We can have a look at “time” if it will make things clearer…
Nothing needs to change. Nothing needs to become more “embodied.” What you are looking for is already what is happening.
Without referring to thought, is there a separate “you” here at all?
Anywhere? What/who is on a path to enlightenment? What could possibly benefit from just THIS?

I told you in the beginning that there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. So let’s reassess again your expectations in the light of what has been seen:
1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - I think yes, I may have expectations creeping into my looking, despite my best efforts. Apologies in advance since I think the quote button is malfunctioning. I've tried to highlight your words in a different color so it's clear when it's me.

Look carefully at that. What is “not enough”?
Is that anything more than a thought?
Does “enough” exist anywhere in direct experience?
Or is it just seeing happening and a thought saying “this should feel different”

I think I mean that the realization I come to when I'm looking doesn't seem to be self-sustaining. It disappears as instantly as it appeared. It may be that I've read so much about awakening that I've internalized the expectation that - whether gradual or instantaneous - it is a perceptual shift nonetheless. A shift where thoughts still happen, but they are more like the weather than the sky. Right now, they still mostly feel like the sky. I recognize that is another thought, but then other thoughts come in to obscure that recognition, if that makes sense.

is that expectation anything more than a thought? Is that even your expectation? Did you come up with it?
How is it possible to "maintain" something when you are present?

I don't think it's anything more than a thought, and I certainly didn't come up with it. I suppose when I say "maintain" I mean that the seeing persists from moment to moment without my conscious effort.

Or is there simply clear seeing, plus thoughts and sensations appearing at the same time?
Do those thoughts block anything?
Or do they just appear?
Right now, in this moment, are there: seeing, hearing, sensation, thought all present?
Is anything missing from this?

I think that my thoughts are more of a distraction than anything.
And yes, in this moment there is seeing, hearing, sensation, thought all present. No there isn't anything missing, actually. When I think about it that way, I see that yes, the thoughts about "not enough" are just more thoughts. There is nothing inherently wrong with those thoughts. They just are. Interestingly, the way you phrased it here made the question that you've asked repeatedly ("is there anything missing") land differently. I think I see what you're saying. The thought that it isn't enough the same as the sound I can't help but hear or the sight I can't help but see.

Nothing needs to change. Nothing needs to become more “embodied.” What you are looking for is already what is happening.
Without referring to thought, is there a separate “you” here at all?
Anywhere? What/who is on a path to enlightenment? What could possibly benefit from just THIS?

When I look, I will feel a separate self, but then I ask myself "what is that self I'm seeing"? When I look again, I realize that it is just presence there. An open emptiness. But again, it comes with effort, not automatically. I struggle to answer the last two questions here. My mind automatically feeds me "I am on the path to enlightenment." When I look to see what the "I" is, or what the "path" is, I become distracted by thoughts.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
I think I believe that somehow my thoughts won't own me. Or that the thoughts will start feeling like clouds, rather than sky.
2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
I expect that suffering will ease to some degree, since so much of suffering seems to stem from identification with thoughts.
3. What do you want not to happen?
I don't want awakening to not happen. I am no longer afraid of destabilization, but I am afraid that I will never be able to stabilize the perception of awareness as the backdrop to all the things that arise (sensation, thought, etc.)
4. What are you hoping for?
I hope some of my suffering will ease. I hope I become a more compassionate person.
5. What is missing?
I realize now that nothing is missing. Nothing.

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Good. This is very honest—and this is the last layer of seeking speaking.

I realize now that nothing is missing. Nothing.

Good. Now look at everything else you wrote in light of that.

it doesn’t feel self-sustaining
it takes effort
I can’t maintain it
I want thoughts to feel like clouds, not sky

Look carefully! All of that is based on the assumption that there is something to maintain/improve and someone to maintain/improve it. Check directly!
Is there anything to maintain?
Or is there just seeing, hearing, sensation, thought appearing?
Is the seeing effortful?
Or is the effort just another sensation + thought appearing?
Does seeing require effort? Or does it happen automatically? How exactly are you “efforting” seeing?
What is “it” that you want to stabilize?
Can you find it?
Is there a thing that appears, disappears, and needs stabilizing?
Or are there just moments of looking and thoughts commenting about them afterward?
You are still expecting a state. Something continuous. Something different. But what has been seen is not a state. It’s simply what is always already the case.
Does that truth depend on how long it lasts? Whether thoughts return? Or is it true regardless?
Are you doing anything in order to be? Do you need to do anything in order to be? Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away? Do you need to survive in order to be?
Good. Now let’s look very precisely at this part:

When I look again, I realize that it is just presence there. An open emptiness

Is this “presence” anything more than a subtle sensation, maybe a sense of openness (aka sensation)?, and a thought labelling it “presence” or “emptiness”?
This “presence” you’re referring to, does it have a location? A boundary? A shape? Any qualities at all? Is it like a container with boundaries
Or is it just a subtle sensation appearing now?
True nothingness means absolutely nothing. So if there are no sensations and there is nothingness, that's often a subtle thought that is trying to create something.This "feeling" could also be called aliveness, presence or I AM, but even that is a label, is it not? Is there anything here that is not the senses? Those would be physical, but there are also sensations when you close your eyes that don't have a location (unless they are mapped onto an image of the body). The way I look at sensations is that they include anything that is sensed, such as touching a cup or a feeling of emptiness. But it's good to remember that we can only experience see, hear, feel, taste, smell and thought. Anything not in the first five is thought.

Here is a short video explaining emptiness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYqaWmc ... 4&index=41
And here is the key question:
Can what notices this “presence” be found?
Is there a watcher/an observer/something that is aware of this “emptiness” (aka sensation)?
Don’t answer quickly (from teachings / videos / assumptions)! Look.
If there is an observer, where is it? What is it made of? Is it anything more than another thought or subtle sensation?
Or are there simply sensation, thought, and the idea of an observer added on top? Does the sensation need to be known to simply appear? Is it known or just IS?
Very carefully check this:
Is there actually an observer… or only whatever is happening? Is being aware any different from the experience itself

Look at whatever is in front of you. It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is seeing separate from what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience? Is there two things present? Colour AND experience? Or are colour and experience one and the same?
Can you have seeing without the seen, and the seen without the seeing? Can seeingseen, seeingcolour be separate at any time? Is the separation real or is it just language - labels put together, creating the illusion of separate “things”? Look!
Are there even separate seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, and thinking? Or there is just this inseparable experience?
We don’t experience our senses individually. Rather, these are different aspects of experience. Thought tells us that our senses are separate streams of information. We see with our eyes, hear with our ears, feel with our skin, smell with our nose, taste with our tongue. In DE, though, it is seen as a one experience. Senses affect each other. Although speech is perceived through the ears, what we see can change what we hear. In this video, a man produces the same syllable over and over again. If you watch his mouth, you’ll hear the syllable “fah,” but if you look away, you’ll hear “bah.” Although your ears hear “bah,” your eyes see “fah”. This phenomenon is known as the McGurk effect. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k8fHR9jKVM)
Another example of sensory interaction is how both taste and smell are vital for savouring food (flavour). If smell is lost or impaired, for instance, the taste of food will also be impaired, even if taste receptors on the tongue are working fine.
Here is a fun video that demonstrates how a relationship between sight and touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphlhmtGRqI
Look right now ... With your eyes still closed, listen to whatever sound is present for several moments. Now, go back and forth between thoughts and the sound.
Does the sound appear in a different "place" to thoughts? Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct?

However, notice that even calling it “experience” is too much as it supposes “experiencer”. I like calling it just THIS. Buddhism speaks of "thusness" or "suchness," referring to the nature of reality free from conceptual elaborations and the subject–object distinction. So have a fresh look... Is there THIS and a witness, or just THIS? "Being aware" is just the mere fact that THIS is happening :)
Love
Rali

[Blanca]

Hi Rali - Wow, a lot to look at today! :)

Is there anything to maintain?
Or is there just seeing, hearing, sensation, thought appearing?
Is the seeing effortful?
Or is the effort just another sensation + thought appearing?
Does seeing require effort? Or does it happen automatically? How exactly are you “efforting” seeing?
What is “it” that you want to stabilize?
Can you find it?
Is there a thing that appears, disappears, and needs stabilizing?
Or are there just moments of looking and thoughts commenting about them afterward?

Because nothing is missing, no there is no effort required. It seems to me now to be like your analogy of sight. My open eyes see things. I don't need to strain or work to see things. I just see them. And in fact, I couldn't lose this seeing even if I wanted to, so long as my eyeballs are healthy and functioning. When I consider the exercise of looking in this respect, it is obvious to me that stabilization is a nonfactor. I suppose in that sense, there is only looking or there is not looking.

You are still expecting a state. Something continuous. Something different.

Yes, this gets at the crux of the striving that has crept into my looking. Because I assume awakening to be a perceptual shift that results in an understanding of the truth of existence (like the Santa Claus analogy used in the Enlightenment Quotes ebook), it's almost as though I expect a resulting state.

Does that truth depend on how long it lasts? Whether thoughts return? Or is it true regardless?
Are you doing anything in order to be? Do you need to do anything in order to be? Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away? Do you need to survive in order to be?

The truth is true regardless. And no, I don't have to hold on to being. I don't have "stabilize" existence. I see what you mean here. :)

Is this “presence” anything more than a subtle sensation, maybe a sense of openness (aka sensation)?, and a thought labelling it “presence” or “emptiness”?
This “presence” you’re referring to, does it have a location? A boundary? A shape? Any qualities at all? Is it like a container with boundaries
Or is it just a subtle sensation appearing now?

I label it presence because I don't know what else to call it. It is just the being I am that I'm describing. But when I try to look at it, it does seem to be located within my head, which makes me think that it is likely just another thought applied to a sensation.

This "feeling" could also be called aliveness, presence or I AM, but even that is a label, is it not? Is there anything here that is not the senses?

No, strictly speaking, there is only senses! I see what you're saying.

Can what notices this “presence” be found?
Is there a watcher/an observer/something that is aware of this “emptiness” (aka sensation)?

No, what notices the presence cannot be found in DE. Most times I do still feel like "I" am seeing, hearing, sensing, thinking, but to your point, there is just seeing, hearing, sensing, thinking, tasting. I cannot find anything outside these via direct experience. Emptiness simply is. It doesn't require nor have a watcher.

If there is an observer, where is it? What is it made of? Is it anything more than another thought or subtle sensation?
Or are there simply sensation, thought, and the idea of an observer added on top? Does the sensation need to be known to simply appear? Is it known or just IS?

When I imagine this, I just sort of feel a sense of presence behind my face. But when I stop to look for it, there's nothing there. It's clearly just a thought. Though I'm confused by what you mean with "Does the sensation need to be known to simply appear?"

Is there actually an observer… or only whatever is happening? Is being aware any different from the experience itself

I never thought of it this way, but no, there isn't an observer. There is just experience itself. The seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking, sensing. The awareness seems to just be the seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking, sensing.

Look at whatever is in front of you. It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?

It is like a windscreen. I don't see two distinct sets of imagery. It all blends into one (and I never really noticed this! :)

Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is seeing separate from what’s seen?

I can't discern the difference between what i'm seeing and the seen. There isn't a detectable boundary, except as a thought I impose on it. Is this why you asked me a while back if I can detect a boundary to my experience?

Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience? Is there two things present? Colour AND experience? Or are colour and experience one and the same?
Can you have seeing without the seen, and the seen without the seeing? Can seeingseen, seeingcolour be separate at any time? Is the separation real or is it just language - labels put together, creating the illusion of separate “things”? Look!
Are there even separate seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, and thinking? Or there is just this inseparable experience?

In terms of direct experience, no there are not two things present. There is only one. The act of seeing and the seen are so inseparable that they are one. There is only separate seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, and thinking when I draw my attention to one. But most of the time, they work in concert to make up what I experience as being. Oh my goodness, this is such a cool realization!

Does the sound appear in a different "place" to thoughts? Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct?

No, there is no division between thoughts and sound. There is just a thought that labels hearing "sound" and a thought that labels other thoughts "thought."

Buddhism speaks of "thusness" or "suchness," referring to the nature of reality free from conceptual elaborations and the subject–object distinction. So have a fresh look... Is there THIS and a witness, or just THIS?

There is just this. Awareness is just existence happening.

B

[poppyseed]

Hi Blanca
Yay! Amazing!!! This is very clear. Stay right here.

One small thing to look at here:

I couldn’t lose this seeing as long as my eyeballs are functioning

In direct experience, are “eyeballs” actually experienced? Or is there just seeing, plus a thought about eyes/eyeballs?
Close your eyes. With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
Can a pair of eyes be found that is witnessing the blackness? Why not check again ... Can an 'I' / 'me'/Blanca/presence/awareness be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/body part doing the seeing, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Seeing is there no matter the label - it could be "blackness" or it could be "the world"

There is just experience itself… awareness is just existence happening.

Great. Now one last check, very precise:

I label it presence… it is the being I am

Look carefully!
Right now, is there anything that is “I am”… separate from seeing_hearing_feeling_tasting_smelling_thinking?
Or is “I am” just another label added on top of what is already happening?
You saw: no observer can be found, no boundary between seeing and seen, no separation between experience and awareness. Good!!
So now… When the thought appears: “I am this” or “this is me”, does it point to anything real? Or is it just another thought appearing?
Without using any labels at all… is there an experiencer of experience or just experience/just THIS?
Don’t move away from this. Answer only from what is directly found.
With you in this to the end
Love
Rali