Hello, I'm new

[Prism]

When I read through this exercise I thought to myself "Oh no, here comes the stuff I will NEVER understand. Seeing that an apple is not an apple? Good luck with that!"

I went and grabbed an apple and started looking for this mysterious revelation, expecting the apple to transform into another object or something - but then it clicked..

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

The label apple is not real, it is imagination.
The thoughts about the label is more imagination about the imagined label.
Overlay on reality.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

"Apple" is not here - seeing of color and thought about "apple" is here

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, "apple" is thought content - imagination

However, is an apple actually known?

No an apple cannot be known because it is not in actual experience

[Anastacia42]

YES, exactly.

How did it FEEL to see this?

So, here is a pointer that may force you to look, not think:

ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

I did only this and nothing else for 3 months and then saw. It crept up on me while I was sitting at a stoplight. Seeing often happens when we are simply relaxed and looking. I should say, it ONLY happens when we are relaxed and LOOKING. All of this thinking is useless. Truly.

Loving,

[Prism]

How did it FEEL to see this?

It felt like a shift.
Also a relief because I imagined it to be about the object itself and not about the interpetration.

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.
Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

There is only the sensation. No "butt", no "chair" in actual experience. Just the sensation (that we label "butt meeting chair" in this example). There is no information in actual experience other than just the sensation, the labels "butt" and "chair" is added by thought but they are not part of the experience (only as thought content).
Therefore, since it is only one sensation, there is no dividing lines. No beginning, no end - just the sensation in awareness. No beginning or end either for that matter.

[Anastacia42]

It felt like a shift.
Also a relief

Good, yes. That is what we are looking for, a shift in perception. It is most intense when it is new. Then we do become accustomed to it. We may also kind of fall out of it when we believe untrue thoughts, but that can be remedied by questioning the untrue thoughts (lies).

Practice ButtChair whenever and wherever you like. It helps keep you in the truth of no separation.

Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Here is a pointer on another aspect of there being no "self."

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what ​ chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,

[Prism]

Palm Flipping Exercise
How is the movement controlled?

I have no idea, it just happens.
Thought is eagerly participating.. "try faster" etc but not producing the movement or controlling it.

Does a thought control it?

It does not. It does however comment the movement.
It might say "ok lets try this" or "is this too fast? lets slow down a bit" or "oh im stiff in my joints"

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Not at all
What might happen is a thought popping up saying "ok enough for now" but it wasnt the thought controlling if the movement was stopped or not.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

It happens automatically, the decision just appears

[Prism]

Btw, I am experimenting with observing the body carrying out different tasks during the day and watching "from the back seat" so to speak how it does things just fine without a "me" behind the wheel.

For example, making coffee, doing laundry, typing on the keyboard.
Even decision-making like going sitting outside for a short break and things of that nature.

Trying to see the flow happen without a decision maker.

Thoughts happily participates on and off, and often claims movements or decision making after they happened, like "oh great choice of me picking this coffee cup! its the best one".

Regarding ButtChair, its a great addition to everyday mindfulness exercises.
Ive been using my own version which is noticing the sensation under my feet when Im walking or sitting.

[Anastacia42]

Hi again, Niklas,

it does things just fine without a "me" behind the wheel.

As it has always done. :)

Thoughts happily participates on and off

Yes, amusing, isn't it?

Niklas, can you find any separate self anywhere?

If not, how does it FEEL to see no self?

Loving,

[Prism]

Niklas, can you find any separate self anywhere?

In direct experience I cannot find a self. That is true.

Buuuuuut.......

Can I find the backside of the moon? No.
Does that mean it doesnt exist? No (?)

Can I find God? No.
Does that mean there is no God? No (?)

Can I find a separate self? No.
Does that mean it doesnt exist? No (?)

I know these are all thought examples (and thought content is by design not reality) but why can we assume that some things exist even though in not direct experience but a separate self doesnt follow the same rules of logic?

Does every thing that is not a part of direct experience cease to exist when they are not in awareness anymore?
Then they exist only as thought? Do spieces not yet discovered by mankind not exist? Do they come into existance when we first come into contact with them?

[Prism]

If not, how does it FEEL to see no self?

The feeling when I roam around just experiencing my body doing things is:
Simplicity, ordinariness, effortless, clear (as in no doubt or objection to whats happening), playful, impersonal.
Could probably go on but these are the ones that came without thinking

[Anastacia42]

Good. You may be stuck in doubt (thinking). Let me share a couple of resources for that.

https://www.youtube.com/user/laurentelielevy/videos


https://youtu.be/a_8N331jpA4?si=wHE8KmhO7n9uwLPp

I believe there are 3 videos in the doubt series with Pernille. Please watch all of them.

The feeling when I roam around just experiencing my body doing things is:
Simplicity, ordinariness, effortless, clear (as in no doubt or objection to what's happening), playful, impersonal

This is the type of experiential shift we are looking for. These have little to do with thinking. And as you said, "no doubt."

Much love,

[Prism]

Thank you Stacy.

Good. You may be stuck in doubt (thinking). Let me share a couple of resources for that.

Yes I am aware I get stuck in my head.

Even though i KNOW thought content is not reality..
..I fall in the trap of believing thought content
..I fall in the trap of believing that the "I" that is inside the thought content is existing in reality
..I fall in the trap of believing in beliefs

Why? It seems to me that I need to break the spell that thought has on me.

Which is a laughable idea because who is the one who even comes to this conclusion?!
If there is no me then who is under this spell and who needs to break it? Ludacris.
thought content complaining about thought content.

Even this I know is just imagination. Is the cure to just ignore it all? Ignore it like you would ignore a mad man shouting about the doomsday on the streets? I could try, but it is hard for the mad man to realize he is the one he needs to ignore..
Rant over, you dont need to respond to this - I know its just mind chatter..

Thank you for the video recommendations, I will watch them soon.

This is the type of experiential shift we are looking for. These have little to do with thinking. And as you said, "no doubt."

I agree.. no thinking, no problems.

[Prism]

https://www.youtube.com/user/laurentelielevy/videos

These videos are in French. Not sure if theres been a misunderstanding but Je ne parle pas francais so well (:

[Anastacia42]

Oops! Wrong link.

English here:

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=TZwuFEst-7Hsadpu

Much love,

[Prism]

https://youtu.be/a_8N331jpA4?si=wHE8KmhO7n9uwLPp

I believe there are 3 videos in the doubt series with Pernille. Please watch all of them.

These are brilliant, and they feel relevant to where Im currently at.
I think you are right what you said about doubts.. it might be my biggest obstacle currently.
I might need some time to digest this information and find a way to tackle it

[Prism]

Could be good for you to know that I haven't really done any work on emotions during my spiritual path.
I figured I'd find out the "me" is false first. and all of that would sort itself automatically.