beyond the gate

[Blu]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the me I think I am is just a mental construction

What are you looking for at LU?
A guide that helps me see how things really are beyond mental constructions...
A guide to help me see my mental traps and fears that prevent me from going beyond a simple mental understanding...
A guide to help me go beyond my head..

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be able to abandon all lies about reality and recognize unequivocally that I have passed the gate.
As I wrote above, I think I have more or less understood mentally..
I once thought this would be enough for me, now I think i need to go further

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Books of non duality

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[warissem]

Hi

I apologize for the delay to respond to you. My name is Nour, I am glad to accompany you to see through the illusion of a separate self.
What name I can put on you?

Read the disclaimer text
Be 100 % honest when you answer the questions I give you
Leave aside all the stuff about spirituality
Learn how to use the quote function.

You said in the introduction :

That the me I think I am is just a mental construction

In your own words, what is then this "me" if it is not just a mental construction?
Describe this "me" for someone who does not know it.

Nour

[Blu]

Hi Nour,
you can call me Silvia :)

thank you so much for answering my request!!

I read the disclaimer, ok!

In your own words, what is then this "me" if it is not just a mental construction?
Describe this "me" for someone who does not know it.

I mean the body, thoughts, and a sense of presence that I can't define

p.s. I'm using google translate for this conversation so I apologize in advance if my English is not correct

Thanks ❤️

[warissem]

Hi Silvia

I mean the body, thoughts, and a sense of presence that I can't define

let's go step by step :

Are you the body ?

Are you a thought or thoughts?

Are you this sense of presence?

These 3 questions have to be answered after having looked at direct experience. Ponder on each of them and elaborate on your answers.
Looking at direct experience means looking at the field of the 5 senses : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching (or sensations). Thoughts are used for communication here.

p.s. I'm using google translate for this conversation so I apologize in advance if my English is not correct

No worry. What is the langage which you are familiar with?

You are much welcome

Nour

[Blu]

Hi Nour :)

let's go step by step :

Are you the body ?

Are you a thought or thoughts?

Are you this sense of presence?

In direct experience I find no answer to these questions unless I look into the content of thought.

What is the langage which you are familiar with?

I'm Italian


❤️

[warissem]

Hi Silvia

I said that we use thoughts to communicate, if it is not the case there would be no dialog and no forum.

I invite you to give a separate answer to each question :

Are you the body ?

Are you a thought or thoughts?

Are you this sense of presence?

PS : I live in Algiers, the same time zone as Italia

Nour

[Blu]

Hi Nour :)

Are you the body ?

Yes, i see it right below me, it is the most immediate thing to me, it is the reception center of every perception that reaches me.
The sensations of this body are felt only by me. Only I can move it

Are you a thought or thoughts?

Yes, it is my inner voice first of all, something that only I perceive

Are you this sense of presence?

I do not find it in any way, the only thing I find associated with it, is the physical perception of the body and the look from behind the eyes and then it seems to be inherent in every perception (subject/object). It is probably just a thought but the association is so overlapping and immediate that it is perceived as a characteristic of the act of perceiving.
as if the perception sent me the message: I am, I exist
So not only: "I think therefore I exist" but also "I perceive therefore I exist"

Grateful for your help

[warissem]

Good evening

To begin with, I invite you to be familiar with LOOKING AT Direct experience.
There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Nour

[Blu]

Good morning Nour,

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I hope

Are you the body ?

There are colors and sensations labeled as mine/me

Are you a thought or thoughts?

Thoughts are present, most of these are recognized thoughts such as I am the one speaking, I am the one thinking, some of these semms automatically and sometimes I find myself watching them unfold

Are you this sense of presence?

The body is present and a kind of awareness that this is my body, this is me so I am present.

also.. there must be some fear.. several times this morning while I was trying to look, the thought came: are you sure you want to do this?

thank you for time you dedicate me

[warissem]

Dear Silvia

There are colors and sensations labeled as mine/me

In direct experience of the body, there are colors and sensations, yes. Is there mine and me outside of thoughts?

Thoughts are present,

Yes, this cannot be denied.

Code: Select all

most of these are recognized thoughts such as I am the one speaking, I am the one thinking, some of these semms automatically and sometimes I find myself watching them unfold

Let's look at the thought "I am the one speaking" : "speaking" is happening but how about "I" : is it here in direct experience?
Is "I" really speaking?
Is "I" really thinking?

Look at direct experience and see the answers.

The body is present and a kind of awareness that this is my body, this is me so I am present.

Yes, there is a body. Is there a me to which the body belongs?

also.. there must be some fear.. several times this morning while I was trying to look, the thought came: are you sure you want to do this?

It is a good question : are you 100 % sure that you want to see through the illusion of a separate self?

Fear is maybe here because of your expectations about this process :
In your own words, could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

thank you for time you dedicate me

You are much welcome

[Blu]

Hi Nour
while I'm watching, I'm writing to let you know that tomorrow and the day after I will never have any moments of solitude to dedicate to this (unfortunately I can't share this with anyone in my life) I will try to work anyway but it might be difficult to watch and especially to answer. Can I update you on the questions on Thursday evening? Is that okay with you?

Thanks

[warissem]

Good evening

There is no worry. Take time for it.

best for you

[Blu]

Good morning Nour

In direct experience of the body, there are colors and sensations, yes. Is there mine and me outside of thoughts?

No

Let's look at the thought "I am the one speaking" : "speaking" is happening but how about "I" : is it here in direct experience?

No

Is "I" really speaking?

no, speaking happens

Is "I" really thinking?

Thinking happens

Is there a me to which the body belongs?

out of thought , no

are you 100 % sure that you want to see through the illusion of a separate self?

100% no, because I'm afraid of finding out that I don't exist and that I never existed but I have no choice.

How will life change?

life won't change

How will you change?

Maybe I'll be more relaxed and at peace with life and with myself.

What will be different?

my perception of things will be different

What is missing?

a clear vision

Thanks

[warissem]

Good evening

You have done good observations, here are some comments about the fear :

I hear you about that fear but here's the thing: the fear of 'not existing' is just another thought, another story the mind creates. The truth is, what you are, at your core, has always been beyond that fear. There will be no disappearance of a separate self, something which never existed in the first place : look at a baby who does not know his name. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is an uncovering of what is true beyond the stories, the identities, and the thoughts.

In a previous post, I have sent a link about "how to deal with fear". I cannot see the truth in your place, you have to LOOK and do the job for yourself. I have given many exercises and pointers. Go back to them and practice them till you feel a visceral understanding not intellectual.

Let me know where you are at in this process, what has changed from the beginning of our dialog?
What is not clear for you ?

Can you be unaware?

Can you be other than here now?

Are you separate from the 5 senses experience ?

Is there an outside of this experience here now?

is there still me here and the world out there?

Give at least 10 minutes to LOOK AT what each question is pointing to then SEE the answer without doubt like seeing the color of the sky.

Nour

[Blu]

Hi

what has changed from the beginning of our dialog?

Now it's very clear to me that there is no choice

What is not clear for you ?

The absence of me. There is the (believed) idea that I exist outside of perceptible things (subject/object) and therefore even if I see that I/me is a label attached to the body and thoughts and that I cannot be found in the field of perceptions, this does not surprise me or make it clear to me that I do not exist.

Can you be unaware?

When the body is not conscious

Can you be other than here now?

No, here and now is the only possibility that exists. Although it becomes less clear to see it when you are immersed in the flow of thought

Are you separate from the 5 senses experience ?

no, the experience of the senses seems to happen inside me, it is very "intimate" if that makes sense, but at the same time I still feel separate, me inside the body

Is there an outside of this experience here now?

I think this is a crucial question since I believe that what I am is not perceptible and this is where the ego hides.
It seems like there is a non-place where my consciousness resides, since I cannot find it in direct experience, so yes, there is a feeling that it is there. I am a bit confused

is there still me here and the world out there?

yes, I still feel here in the body, separated from the world and from other person

Thanks a lot