Eye Of The Storm

[Sui]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That self is just a concept, a thought which can not be found through senses.

What are you looking for at LU?
I keep on switching from drowning in thoughts to reaching the eye of the storm and finding peace where i feel home. Im looking for someone to guide me on how to stop switching between the two and make the peace last.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Advice, guidance, feedback. Anything that would help me stay in the peaceful eye of the storm where thoughts are just flying around instead of sucking me in and bringing chaos. I know nobody can bring me this, i have to work on quiting the mind myself, but im struggling and would like to talk to someone who has already gone through it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have read many books, meditated for many hours, do daily practices of trying to calm the thoughts storm when im walking or doing daily chores. I tried psychedelics etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui, vince here, i will guide you.

I keep on switching from drowning in thoughts to reaching the eye of the storm and finding peace where i feel home. Im looking for someone to guide me on how to stop switching between the two and make the peace last.

You’re caught in a loop—the mind’s storm drags you in, then a glimpse of peace arises, only to be lost again. You want the peace to last. But here’s the raw truth: peace isn’t something you can hold onto. The moment you try to make it stay, you create resistance. That resistance is the very mechanism that pulls you back into the storm.

Right now, you’re playing tug-of-war between two mental states:

Being lost in thoughts (storm).
Feeling at home in peace (eye of the storm).
But who is it that wants to stay in the eye? Who is it that resists the storm? Is there actually someone in control of this at all?

Try this: next time the storm of thoughts arises, do nothing about it. Don't push it away. Don't try to escape to peace. Just let it rage. Watch. Feel. See if there’s actually anything solid at the center of it.

The paradox is that when you stop trying to keep peace, when you stop resisting thought-storms, they lose their power over you.

Sit with this. Try it now. Report back.

vince

[Sui]

Hello Vince,

Thanks for accepting me into the forum.

My apologies for the delay in reply. Email got lost in spam.

Thanks for the pointers. I do what you suggest during meditation and what i notice is that thoughts still come, but they have no complete words or concepts, just beginnings of words or mumbling. So I do see how this is helpful (and also funny). :)

However, as soon as I stand up from meditation i get lost into thoughts in 5 minutes. So basically i'm fully present to the point where I don't even observe, but just drop all effort and let whatever is left be and then I suddenly realize Im deep back into a thought again at which moment I come back to consciousness and then wake up from being lost in thoughts 5 minutes later again. It feels like a loop of switching between two worlds (world of thought and present). I've been stuck in this loop for a year or so and was wandering if there are any pointers to help me get out of it. I don't think that i'm chasing one world and resisting the other and I'm fine with where I am, but I read that this is just a stage and I would like to know how to advance from it.

Also, most of the time it feels like there is a 'me' doing this. I get some moments where the attention is so hard on the senses that I forget the 'me', but it keeps coming back in the same loop. I've read some books that said the 'me' is not something that I feel, but something that I 'think'. I understand that not all thoughts come in a form of words and some come in a form of visuals or concepts, so the 'me' that I 'feel' is probably a wordless concept that lives in my brain. Would also like to ask if there are pointers of seeing in experience that this is indeed a thought instead of understanding it conceptually.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,
Sui

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui,

I've been stuck in this loop for a year or so and was wandering if there are any pointers to help me get out of it.

okay, this is a big one. Now I want you to watch how you react to what I'm about to say… If any emotion appears this is your portal into what I am pointing to.
I gave you pointers out of it, but you didn't hear them. (Because you're stuck in that loop).
I want you to quote every question I ask then follow it with your answer. EVERY QUESTION!
Here is a link to how to use the "function…viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
NB: (Note well) you are not gonna get out of this loop by thinking about it. You are not going to wake up using your thoughts. This is a process of recognising what is actual, and although the existence of your thought is actual what it is about i.e. the contents of it is purely conceptual. It is always a story ABOUT something. It is never the thing itself.
So, next time you find yourself lost in the thought world observe what you are feeling. Also notice any judgement or opinion about this and then go back to the body and notice the sensations that could be associated with what we call resistance to the current situation.

as soon as I stand up from meditation i get lost into thoughts in 5 minutes.

Perfect. That means meditation is just another mind game for you—a little bubble of temporary peace that pops the moment life happens. So let’s cut through this.

Right now, what makes "lost in thought" a problem? Who decides that it’s an issue? Look closely—who is in control of when thoughts arise and when they don’t?

Try this: the next time you stand up, don’t try to stay peaceful. In fact, welcome the flood of thoughts. Let them crash in fully. But instead of getting tangled in them, just notice:

- Where do they come from?
- Do you actually choose them?
- Who is the one watching?

The moment you stop fighting thoughts, the moment you see they arise on their own without a "you" to control them, the struggle evaporates.

So, stand up. Let the chaos come. And this time, instead of getting lost, see if there's actually anyone there to be lost.
..and when i say "see", i don't mean think about it. i mean find something or someone actual.


with love vince

[Sui]

Now I want you to watch how you react to what I'm about to say… If any emotion appears this is your portal into what I am pointing to.
I gave you pointers out of it, but you didn't hear them. (Because you're stuck in that loop).

Fear, helplessness.

Right now, what makes "lost in thought" a problem?

Thoughts bring back painful memories or fears about the future and both the body and the brain are suffering and want to escape.

Who decides that it’s an issue?

It's basically two brains commanding two bodies to type words on this forum (mine and yours), so if I type that thoughts bring suffering, it's the brain deciding so. Can I see my brain? No. So it's just a concept. If you want me to just use my senses to answer these questions, then I can't see, hear, touch, smell any problems, no deciders, no controllers, not even any thoughts. Things we are talking about such as problems, deciders etc exist only in the thought world, but they do not end there. They are painful. Many thoughts bring actual physical suffering to the body. Input from senses are mostly beautiful. It makes sense that the brain would want to protect itself from hurt and sign up on this forum to look for the way to protect against thoughts.

Look closely—who is in control of when thoughts arise and when they don’t?

Nobody is in control. It's just that senses bring relief and thoughts are painful, therefore brain just to tries to protect itself.

Try this: the next time you stand up, don’t try to stay peaceful. In fact, welcome the flood of thoughts. Let them crash in fully. But instead of getting tangled in them, just notice:

- Where do they come from?

No direction they are coming from or going to.

Do you actually choose them?

I don't.

Who is the one watching?

The same way the brain is observing the visuals and the sounds, its observing thoughts.

So, stand up. Let the chaos come. And this time, instead of getting lost, see if there's actually anyone there to be lost.
..and when i say "see", i don't mean think about it. i mean find something or someone actual.

When I try to 'see' without thinking, I notice that it's just attention that is switching between senses and thoughts. After I notice it, I look at the screen and see words on it (your question) and I must start thinking in order to form an answer. I struggle on how to communicate what I see without thinking. Words are thoughts, so its not possible to use them without thinking.

[vinceschubert]

Thoughts bring back painful memories or fears about the future and both the body and the brain are suffering and want to escape.

I hear you. When painful memories or fears arise, it’s not just mental—it’s *felt*. Your body tightens, your chest constricts, your stomach knots. It’s like being trapped in a loop you didn’t choose. And the instinct to escape? Completely natural.

But here’s the thing: what if escape isn’t the way out?

Right now, let’s pause. Instead of running from the pain, let’s sit with it—gently.

Try this:
Locate it – Where in your body do you feel it most? Chest? Stomach? Throat? Just place your attention there, without needing it to change.
Then Breathe into it – Not to fix it, just to acknowledge it. Slow, deep breaths. Feel the space around it.
Then Let it unfold – Instead of pushing the memory or fear away, try saying: “Okay, I see you. You can be here.” Notice what happens when you don’t resist.

The pain isn’t the enemy. The suffering comes from **the fight against it**. What happens when you allow yourself to feel, without needing to escape?

I’m here. No rush. Just let me know what you notice.

i know that you're not just looking for abstract answers—you’re feeling this deeply, and it affects you on a real, visceral level.

You're absolutely right—thoughts don’t just stay in the mind. They show up as tension, tightness, nausea, and exhaustion. The body carries them. This isn't just philosophy; it's lived experience. N

Instead of trying to escape them, try this: place your hand on your chest or stomach where you feel the tension most. Breathe into it. Let your body know that it’s okay to feel this. You don’t have to fight the thoughts; you just have to be here, with them, without pushing away. Now tell me... is it the thoughts that carry the pain, or is it the response to them that generates it?

It makes complete sense to want protection. When thoughts feel like attacks, of course you’d want a shield. But have you noticed that trying to block them actually makes them louder? It’s like trying to hold a beach ball underwater—it takes effort, and eventually, it pops back up.

Instead of resisting, try this: the next time a painful thought comes, don’t brace against it. Instead, say silently, Okay, you’re here. Let’s see what you have to say. And just listen. No defense, no debate. Watch what happens when you stop treating thoughts as enemies.

You’re noticing something profound—words and thinking are linked. And yet, communication still happens. Maybe right now, instead of trying to “get it right” in words, just notice what’s here. Maybe let yourself sit in silence for a moment before responding. Notice what’s underneath the words.

This isn’t about forcing yourself to be okay with thoughts. It’s about being gentle with yourself when they come. You don’t need to win against them. You just need to see that you are already bigger than any thought.

How does this land for you?

with love

vince

[Sui]

Basically, you just described my meditation. :)

I've read the liberation unleashed book by Ilona and many others. I also read forum threads of other people. I understand that resisting is what is causing the friction and surrender is the answer. I also see that the main reason why thoughts are so triggering is that they are associated with the 'ME'. The doer, the feeler. I understand that it is an illusion, just another thought. The reason i registered to this forum is to seek help to see through the illusion instead of understanding it conceptually. I've read that people come to see it clearly that there is no 'me' and while this does not make thoughts disappear, the association subsides and they no longer cause so many emotions. I'm not trying to find new ways to relax and stop resisting. I already do this every day. However, it feels like i'm healing symptoms and not the disease itself which is the illusion of self, which is causing the emotional feedback to the thoughts in the first place.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui,

to seek help to see through the illusion instead of understanding it conceptually.

Good, so how do we get from thinking about it to experiencing it?
Excellent. You’re done with soothing. You’re done with spiritual band-aids. You want to amputate the root illusion.

Then stop everything right now.

Look.
In this moment, not what you believe, not what you’ve read—is there a “me” anywhere?
Look for it like your life depends on it. Search every crevice of this present experience.

Start now:

- When a thought arises, who hears it?
- When a sensation pulses in the body, who is it happening to?
- When emotion stirs, is there a feeler?

Where is the one that all of this is happening to?
Not a concept. Not an idea. Something real. Something here. Now.

Don’t answer with logic. I don’t care what you “understand.” That’s the trap.

Check directly:
Can you find a feeler? A thinker? A doer?
Or are there just thoughts, feelings, sensations—arising?

What do you see? Report now. Raw. Immediate. No philosophy.

vince

[Sui]

Start now:

- When a thought arises, who hears it?
- When a sensation pulses in the body, who is it happening to?
- When emotion stirs, is there a feeler?

It feels like there is something or someone who this is happening to but I cant put my finger on it. Its something very abstract.

Where is the one that all of this is happening to?
Not a concept. Not an idea. Something real. Something here. Now.

I can not see, hear, smell or touch it.

Can you find a feeler? A thinker? A doer?
Or are there just thoughts, feelings, sensations—arising?

The doer cant be touched, smelled or seen. It just lives in a form of thought/feeling.

[vinceschubert]

It feels like there is something or someone who this is happening to but I cant put my finger on it. Its something very abstract.

I can not see, hear, smell or touch it.

The doer cant be touched, smelled or seen. It just lives in a form of thought/feeling.

Good. Very good.

Now we’re in the fire.

You just said it:
> "It feels like there is something or someone who this is happening to but I can’t put my finger on it."

Perfect. That’s the illusion.

That vague, abstract sense—the one that “feels like me” but can’t be touched or found? That’s the ghost. That’s the imagined center around which the entire thought/emotion machine spins. It's not real—but it's believed.

Let’s dismantle it, piece by piece. Right now.

STOP READING AND DO THIS:
Close your eyes for 20 seconds.

Let everything happen: thoughts, feelings, sounds, sensations.

Now—without using memory or thought—can you point to any “me” that’s there, in the middle of experience?

Is anything actually owning the pain? Claiming the thoughts?

Or is it just happening?

If you say, “It feels like it’s happening to me,”
then what is that “me” made of? Not the idea of it, but the raw substance, here and now.

Not memory. Not belief. Not language.

Find it. Touch it. Show it.

What happens when you don’t accept that “it feels like me” is the end of the investigation?
What if that’s just the bait?

Stay here. Don’t explain. Report what is directly seen—now.

vince

[Sui]

Let everything happen: thoughts, feelings, sounds, sensations.

Now—without using memory or thought—can you point to any “me” that’s there, in the middle of experience?

Is anything actually owning the pain? Claiming the thoughts?

Or is it just happening?

I can not point to anything, because I can only see, feel, touch etc what is outside of my body. The 'feeler' is inside. I can not point to emotions either, but does it mean they only live in thoughts? I can not see or touch my brain, but it's there, isn't it? I know you asked me to answer with direct experience, but it it seems to me that I can not break the illusion without making my brain see it as an illusion and in order to do that, i need to speak in a form of a brain language meaning logical arguments. If that's not the case and you have a plan to make me see in another way, just let me know and I will stop trying to convince my brain and follow your guidance answering from direct experience only.

Going back to answers only using direct experience (only looking outside my body): I can not point to anything outside my body that is in the middle of the experience. I can not see anything owning the emotions or claiming the thoughts in the room outside my body neither, nor can I see the emotions or thoughts.

If you say, “It feels like it’s happening to me,”
then what is that “me” made of? Not the idea of it, but the raw substance, here and now.

Im pretty confused on how to go about answering these questions. I will try another approach and drop what is outside my body and can be seen, heard etc. I close my eyes, I observe thoughts, emotions, sounds. I ask what else is there. Brain says its 'me'. I try to feel it out, concentrate on how that 'me' feels like. I make a list: there's thoughts, sounds, theres darkness, theres bodily sensations, theres fear, confusion, theres a feeling of responsibility (not sure if it's another color of the same fear or if this is what causes the fear), there's a very abstract feeling of attention. Not even sure how I know that attention is there, is it just another thought? Seems that is all there is.

Lets go through the list:
Thoughts: I can not discard that 'me' is just a thought.
Sounds: 'Me' is clearly not a sound.
Darkness: 'Me' is clearly not what is seen with my eyes.
Bodily sensations: 'Me' is clearly not a bodily sensation. They change and 'me' is always there.
Fear: 'Me' is there even when there is no fair.
Confusion: 'Me' is there even when there is no confusion.
Feeling of responsibility: This is persistent as well as the feeling of 'Me'. Can't discount these are not the same thing with a different mask.
Feeling of attention: Also always there, cant discard the possibility that attention is what I keep calling as 'Me'.

So suspects: Me might be a thought, feeling of responsibility, feeling of attention.

It feels like i'm sound very confusing to you and I apologize for that, but thats only because i am super confused myself. I dont intend to be difficult.

[Sui]

Went back to it this morning. Closed my eyes and looked at thoughts, responsibility, attention. Checked if they are even real at all. I know thoughts are for sure there, because I hear them in words in my mind. Feeling of responsibility and attention on the other hand i'm not so sure about. Might be that responsibility is just a thought with emotions such as fear and anxiety attached to it. Attention? Could as well be just a thought as well, because I don't feel it as clearly as words in my mind or anxiety/fear in my body. At this point it seems to me that all there is just:
1. Sight.
2. Smell.
3. Hearing.
4. Physical sensations of the body.
5. Taste.
6. Emotions.
7. Thoughts.

All else is just stuff i think that i feel but i cant put my finger on it, so if i think i feel the other stuff, how different is it from just thoughts.

I think the confusion comes because thoughts are not just words in one's head. They are general beliefs/truths about life that have been accepted for so long and work as a frame work the thoughts are happening within. When I look at my thoughts these things don't seem like thoughts, because they are ingrained in the space thoughts are happening in. So now it makes sense, why it wouldn't be useful to look for the illusion with the help of intellect, to look for it hidden between thoughts. Its just not there. Im playing 2D chess when the answer is in 3D.

I know how to check if something is really in the room or just imagined - i open my eyes and see. If I dont see it, its not there. Its instantly clear, there is no question about it. The belief of somebody being in the room vanishes effortlessly.
I know how to check if concepts are true or false - i use logic and compare facts with my thoughts. If a concept doesn't hold up to facts, the concept instantly loses all credibility. Again, effortlessly.
So this 'me', 'attention' and other beliefs about things of non material world, why do they not drop when I look and cant find them? Even my thoughts (the come in words) agree that these must be imagined. But they are still there. So basically i dont think there is a 'me', but i still believe it. It doesnt make any sense.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Sui, This is really good. i was about to respond to your 7:27am post and was having difficulty formulating a response that would reset the perspective that you seemed to be using. When i clicked the "Post Reply" button then your 7:59pm post appeared. Wow, the perspective had changed. Love it.
Let's just clarify some details of what you realised.
Don't ever just accept anything that i say. Always check if it resonates and push back if it doesn't.

I know thoughts are for sure there, because I hear them in words in my mind

Correct. A thoughts existence is actual. It is experienced. What it is about is conceptual. Not actual.

I hear them in words in my mind

You probably experience thoughts as images and movies too, but subtly. (maybe)

Feeling of responsibility ... on the other hand i'm not so sure about. Might be that responsibility is just a thought with emotions such as fear and anxiety attached to it.

This is a bit more tricky. The emotions that accompany this are thought story generated. Probably not conscious, so the beliefs that stimulate the emotions are no longer accessible. (more on this later)

Attention?

Let's be clear about this. Attention is an abstract noun. That is, it doesn't exist as a thing. It is a process of attending to (focussing) some thing (or some where)

1. Sight.
2. Smell.
3. Hearing.
4. Physical sensations of the body.
5. Taste.
6. Emotions.
7. Thoughts.

These are good - but i will amend 6. Emotions are sensations with stories attached to them.
When you say thoughts, be clear that the fact of the existence of a thought - yes. but not it's content (what it is about)

All else is just stuff i think that i feel but i cant put my finger on it, so if i think i feel the other stuff, how different is it from just thoughts

Yes! Absolutely. All else is conceptual. That is it only exists as a thought story.

I think the confusion comes because thoughts are not just words in one's head. They are general beliefs/truths about life that have been accepted for so long and work as a frame work the thoughts are happening within

This is brilliant. Yes. Now do you realize that this is conditioned (learned) and here's the really big one - that is what the sense of self consists of? (learned beliefs)

So now it makes sense, why it wouldn't be useful to look for the illusion with the help of intellect,

Yes, yes. It's the intellect that creates the illusion. It's like the eye can't see itself.

I know how to check if concepts are true or false - i use logic and compare facts with my thoughts.

Concepts are neither true of false. Just as there is no such thing as a fact. It's all information which is always conceptual.

So this 'me', 'attention' and other beliefs about things of non material world, why do they not drop when I look and cant find them?

They will when you 'grok' the reality of them. We must experience something more than an intellectual understanding.
Beliefs will change when they are recognised to be fallacious.
Sometimes the conditioning goes deep.

So basically i dont think there is a 'me', but i still believe it. It doesnt make any sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense. We are dealing with beliefs, not logic.
i will keep pointing to what is experiential (actual) and eventually...

with love

vince

[Sui]

Alright, sounds good. Im ready to continue when you are.

[vinceschubert]

Alright, sounds good. Im ready to continue when you are.

Right. Let’s go.

Right now—no effort, no control—just sit still and let everything happen.

Don’t try to watch. Don’t try to focus. Just let the sights, sounds, sensations, and thoughts appear on their own.

Now—in the middle of all this appearing—where is the one it's happening to?

Scan the body:

Is there a “center” anywhere?
Is there a location in the chest, the head, the gut where this “me” resides?
Go there now. Drop all descriptions. Don’t say “it feels like…”
Actually look. Is it there? A thing? A center?

Or is it just sensation… thought… naming?

Look again:

Do you find an owner of thought—or just thought?
Do you find a doer of action—or just movement?
Do you find a feeler of emotion—or just raw, shifting sensation?
Stay right here. No interpretation.
Don’t move forward until you’ve looked.
Tell me now:

What’s actually here?

vince