Stuck on the witness
Re: Stuck on the witness
I'm just going to give you time now. Nothing for me to add here
Re: Stuck on the witness
I'll let you know, how I'm doing. It may be boring, sorry about that.
I'm not trying to get my shit together - doesn't seem like a good direction. Or maybe it's my laziness speaking, who knows.
Oh, I forgot, I did one thing - from experience I know how what I eat affects my mental health, so I made sure to have in store a number of tasty low-carb meals, ready in the fridge.
Other than that, I'm just looking at what is happening, and feeling, how it feels.
There are phases of binging, and phases of not-binging.
1. Binging
When binging, I feel like kept on a leash. Or like this rat with electrodes in its brain, that wouldn't stop pushing the button, until it starved. I can't go away from the stimulus, even if I'm tired. There's no energy to stop it and do something else. There is pleasure in binging, sure, but at the same time, it's unpleasurable to be kept on this leash.
Also, in this state there is "only now". The future is just a though, not real at all. Deadlines? What deadlines? There's no way of setting a time limit. The binging will finish, when I feel it's finished.
Nevertheless, the moderation of binging happens, and it doesn't feel like I'm forcing it. There is a point when I have enough of it, and I'm let off the leash. Liberation unleashed, haha.
2. Not-binging
When I'm off the leash, there is a feeling of relief. There is a pleasure in washing dishes and so on, in bringing some order to my environment, but also just because there is no pressure of this craving. It feels calm.
At one point I started rearranging the magnets on the fridge in neat lines, just because it felt pleasurable. In this activity, there was a similar feeling as in the binging: "It will finish, when I feel it's finished". Not when I achieve perfectly neat arrangement, but when I feel this: "Good. Done".
It's similar to the binging, but not the same, like eating and overeating. The difference between: "I'm satiated, satisfied. Good, done", and: "I can't take it any more. That's enough, done".
As for the smoking, it feels like a kind of self-medicating. The binging phase starts with thoughts of pleasurable activities, that distract me from whatever I'm doing. I'm losing focus, and smoking helps to keep my attention on the task at hand.
Love
Jutka
I'm not trying to get my shit together - doesn't seem like a good direction. Or maybe it's my laziness speaking, who knows.
Oh, I forgot, I did one thing - from experience I know how what I eat affects my mental health, so I made sure to have in store a number of tasty low-carb meals, ready in the fridge.
Other than that, I'm just looking at what is happening, and feeling, how it feels.
There are phases of binging, and phases of not-binging.
1. Binging
When binging, I feel like kept on a leash. Or like this rat with electrodes in its brain, that wouldn't stop pushing the button, until it starved. I can't go away from the stimulus, even if I'm tired. There's no energy to stop it and do something else. There is pleasure in binging, sure, but at the same time, it's unpleasurable to be kept on this leash.
Also, in this state there is "only now". The future is just a though, not real at all. Deadlines? What deadlines? There's no way of setting a time limit. The binging will finish, when I feel it's finished.
Nevertheless, the moderation of binging happens, and it doesn't feel like I'm forcing it. There is a point when I have enough of it, and I'm let off the leash. Liberation unleashed, haha.
2. Not-binging
When I'm off the leash, there is a feeling of relief. There is a pleasure in washing dishes and so on, in bringing some order to my environment, but also just because there is no pressure of this craving. It feels calm.
At one point I started rearranging the magnets on the fridge in neat lines, just because it felt pleasurable. In this activity, there was a similar feeling as in the binging: "It will finish, when I feel it's finished". Not when I achieve perfectly neat arrangement, but when I feel this: "Good. Done".
It's similar to the binging, but not the same, like eating and overeating. The difference between: "I'm satiated, satisfied. Good, done", and: "I can't take it any more. That's enough, done".
As for the smoking, it feels like a kind of self-medicating. The binging phase starts with thoughts of pleasurable activities, that distract me from whatever I'm doing. I'm losing focus, and smoking helps to keep my attention on the task at hand.
Love
Jutka
Re: Stuck on the witness
Sounds great. Letting the binging happen when it happens. Seems like you're not judging it
High-carb is what makes me happy 😂😂😂. I've been eating bulgur instead of rice and bread recently and it's made my digestion a lot better :)Oh, I forgot, I did one thing - from experience I know how what I eat affects my mental health, so I made sure to have in store a number of tasty low-carb meals, ready in the fridge.
Re: Stuck on the witness
In the last week, with the deadline approaching, I was looking at the second part - at the unpleasant feelings that I'm avoiding.
There was fear, disgust and helplessness, all of them around the lack of skill, the weakness. Working with these feelings present was like pushing through molasses.
The disgust is like the opposite of the satisfaction I get, when I watch someone doing their work skillfully. Watching someone doing their work unskillfully, botching it, is unpleasant, doesn't matter if it's me or someone else, or even a tool malfunctioning. Just ugh.
There is helplessness, because I'm not able to correct it. I can't help it.
There is fear of consequences, that my unskillfull work is harmful - for me, for my employer, for the customer.
But still, I have to do my job to earn a living.
It goes in circles - there is an urge to give up on doing, what is unskillful, but giving up is also unskillful, so I get even more fear, disgust and helplessness, so I go back to work, and push through again, until I can't, and so it goes.
The meme comes to mind:
Everyone is doing the best they can, and that is terrifying.
Love
Jutka
There was fear, disgust and helplessness, all of them around the lack of skill, the weakness. Working with these feelings present was like pushing through molasses.
The disgust is like the opposite of the satisfaction I get, when I watch someone doing their work skillfully. Watching someone doing their work unskillfully, botching it, is unpleasant, doesn't matter if it's me or someone else, or even a tool malfunctioning. Just ugh.
There is helplessness, because I'm not able to correct it. I can't help it.
There is fear of consequences, that my unskillfull work is harmful - for me, for my employer, for the customer.
But still, I have to do my job to earn a living.
It goes in circles - there is an urge to give up on doing, what is unskillful, but giving up is also unskillful, so I get even more fear, disgust and helplessness, so I go back to work, and push through again, until I can't, and so it goes.
The meme comes to mind:
Everyone is doing the best they can, and that is terrifying.
Love
Jutka
Re: Stuck on the witness
Ahh, the cycle of judging and resistance hahah. Interpretation and judgement about doing something poorly > negative emotion > wanting to stop (resistance) > interpretation and judgement about resistance and stopping what feels bad (resisting the resistance) > infinity
Re: Stuck on the witness
Yes, it's quite common. I feel helpless against it.
I also feel that this judgment of weakness is very deep seated, much older than the human race. Vince was telling a story about chickens pecking on a weaker chicken, and you can see it in any kind of social animals.
On the cellular level, there is a process of apoptosis. I'm fascinated with it. It's when a cell in the body dies in a programmed, organized, orderly way, without leaving any rotting tissue, that would harm the other cells, as in necrosis. It receives the signal that the time to die has come, and it follows the program. It happens all the time in our bodies, every day billions of cells die like that. If there's too much apoptosis, it results in atrophy, if there's too little, you get cancer. Cancerous cells just refuse to die, they prolong their life span ad infinitum.
I can't help making a connection here with how humans extol life and fear death. I've always felt there is something sick about it. I feel like I'm long past my expiration date, but other humans keep on rewriting the date, and so - here I am. With a sick undead feeling.
Sorry for making it into a story again, I guess it's my way of communicating feelings. Looks nicer than raw: "I feel helpless, sad, weak and nauseous".
I also feel that this judgment of weakness is very deep seated, much older than the human race. Vince was telling a story about chickens pecking on a weaker chicken, and you can see it in any kind of social animals.
On the cellular level, there is a process of apoptosis. I'm fascinated with it. It's when a cell in the body dies in a programmed, organized, orderly way, without leaving any rotting tissue, that would harm the other cells, as in necrosis. It receives the signal that the time to die has come, and it follows the program. It happens all the time in our bodies, every day billions of cells die like that. If there's too much apoptosis, it results in atrophy, if there's too little, you get cancer. Cancerous cells just refuse to die, they prolong their life span ad infinitum.
I can't help making a connection here with how humans extol life and fear death. I've always felt there is something sick about it. I feel like I'm long past my expiration date, but other humans keep on rewriting the date, and so - here I am. With a sick undead feeling.
Sorry for making it into a story again, I guess it's my way of communicating feelings. Looks nicer than raw: "I feel helpless, sad, weak and nauseous".
Re: Stuck on the witness
After-the-meeting thought:
Beneath this fear is pain. The pain of being harmed, the pain of seeing others being harmed, the pain of harming others, the pain of harming myself.
All I do is trying to avoid this pain.
Beneath this fear is pain. The pain of being harmed, the pain of seeing others being harmed, the pain of harming others, the pain of harming myself.
All I do is trying to avoid this pain.
Re: Stuck on the witness
It looks like we've come full circle back to this point we keep bumping into during our discussion. You've seen all this avoidance of pain before, maybe you see it clearer now. You also see that this fear and avoidance is only causing more pain, don't you? I guess we'll just see if surrender happens or not..
Re: Stuck on the witness
Hello, Tyler
On the last meeting, I had to leave just before you showed up, but at the end I asked a question, and I would like to hear your answer too.
Can you listen to 5-6 minutes of it, since 59:53?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hs-DjHioW4
Thank you
Jutka
On the last meeting, I had to leave just before you showed up, but at the end I asked a question, and I would like to hear your answer too.
Can you listen to 5-6 minutes of it, since 59:53?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hs-DjHioW4
Thank you
Jutka
Re: Stuck on the witness
Hi Jutka, it seems to me that the point of the question is to decide on the "criteria" for "being awake". "If you do xyz, you're awake. If you do abc, you're not awake." But then it got confusing because it's difficult to define "following the scent" VS "curiosity" VS "seeking".
Once you define your criteria, you can say for example "Vince is awake, I am awake, my neighbour Bob is not awake, etc.". But it's all arbitrary. "Being awake" only exists as a concept, a definition, and a label you can slap on yourself or other people.
I want to take it a step further and talk about the deeper belief about entities that enables judging to occur. Here are some words from something Marius posted on Facebook:
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Marius: I used to believe that what I said defined me, as if my words created a fixed identity I had to protect. This belief kept me cautious, afraid to express myself fully or to change my mind later. I’d even do the same to others—taking their words as a reflection of who they were, locking them into a mental image I’d created.
But after seeing that there is no fixed self to protect, no one here to be pinned down by words. What’s expressed in one moment is simply life unfolding, not something that needs defending or explaining. Recognizing this has brought a lightness to both speaking and listening—a freedom to let words come and go without attachment.
Me: maintaining constantly-updating images of other people, judging those images (though it would feel like you're judging the people themselves), and comparing those imaginary images to your constantly-updating imaginary image of yourself is so tiring
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Before you imagine "being awake" as a characteristic of someone, you must first imagine that someone. If you look at your experience now, "Vince" only exists as a mental image. Kind of like a character from a book. It's the same thing with yourself, and with your neighbour. Even if you see the "person" that your mental image is of, you're just seeing images and sounds and labelling them under the mental image of the person. There is no person or entity apart from your imagined character. You may think you dislike/love someone, but you are just imagining the character of this person and the character of yourself, and believing the thought that "you" dislike/love "this person".
I'm trying not to sound view-ish, because it is not the truth that "there are no people". I don't claim anything I've said is true, I'm simply pointing you to look at experience. Judgment and definition are a farce. It was all imagined, right down to the one who was imagining it. It's the cosmic joke.
Once you define your criteria, you can say for example "Vince is awake, I am awake, my neighbour Bob is not awake, etc.". But it's all arbitrary. "Being awake" only exists as a concept, a definition, and a label you can slap on yourself or other people.
I want to take it a step further and talk about the deeper belief about entities that enables judging to occur. Here are some words from something Marius posted on Facebook:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marius: I used to believe that what I said defined me, as if my words created a fixed identity I had to protect. This belief kept me cautious, afraid to express myself fully or to change my mind later. I’d even do the same to others—taking their words as a reflection of who they were, locking them into a mental image I’d created.
But after seeing that there is no fixed self to protect, no one here to be pinned down by words. What’s expressed in one moment is simply life unfolding, not something that needs defending or explaining. Recognizing this has brought a lightness to both speaking and listening—a freedom to let words come and go without attachment.
Me: maintaining constantly-updating images of other people, judging those images (though it would feel like you're judging the people themselves), and comparing those imaginary images to your constantly-updating imaginary image of yourself is so tiring
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before you imagine "being awake" as a characteristic of someone, you must first imagine that someone. If you look at your experience now, "Vince" only exists as a mental image. Kind of like a character from a book. It's the same thing with yourself, and with your neighbour. Even if you see the "person" that your mental image is of, you're just seeing images and sounds and labelling them under the mental image of the person. There is no person or entity apart from your imagined character. You may think you dislike/love someone, but you are just imagining the character of this person and the character of yourself, and believing the thought that "you" dislike/love "this person".
I'm trying not to sound view-ish, because it is not the truth that "there are no people". I don't claim anything I've said is true, I'm simply pointing you to look at experience. Judgment and definition are a farce. It was all imagined, right down to the one who was imagining it. It's the cosmic joke.
Re: Stuck on the witness
Criteria for being awake was the point of Vince's statement: "There can be curiosity about what might turn up, but if there is no seeking, then they are awake". I think that from their answer you can only learn if they have a story, that they are seeking, or that they are not seeking, but that's beside the point.it seems to me that the point of the question is to decide on the "criteria" for "being awake". "If you do xyz, you're awake. If you do abc, you're not awake." But then it got confusing because it's difficult to define "following the scent" VS "curiosity" VS "seeking".
The point of my question was the difference between "following the scent" VS "curiosity" VS "seeking", because, as you said, it is confusing.
Also, something ticked me off about "after awakening there is still a direction, where the ice cream is", because I somehow associate the scent with "a pathless land", nondirectionality, if that's a word at all.
I'm not interested in judging, who's awake and who's not. I'm interested in the scent, if it shows up, I follow. I just don't know if it is the same as what Vince calls "seeking", or not.
You can imagine a scent without a person, that gives of this scent.Before you imagine "being awake" as a characteristic of someone, you must first imagine that someone.
I've experienced the scent showing up sometimes around some people, and around some people I'm not experiencing it at all. I have no idea, what this "scent" means, I only know I want to follow it. It showed up around my first Zen master, years ago, it shows up around Suzanne Chang, it shows up around you. That's why I'm coming to the meetings, because in my experience it shows up in this kind of environment.
Re: Stuck on the witness
I'm not sure either, and I don't think it matters. Simply do what you like. There is no difference between seeking, following scent, curiosity, etc.. There is only a difference between our definitions of these things. Without our definitions, they don't exist. Consider a blue gradient https://static.vecteezy.com/system/reso ... vector.jpgI'm not interested in judging, who's awake and who's not. I'm interested in the scent, if it shows up, I follow. I just don't know if it is the same as what Vince calls "seeking", or not.
It's boundless. But people tend to see it like this https://www.schemecolor.com/images/sche ... adient.png
Without our definitions, there are no separate shades of blue. Without our definitions, there is no blue, red, or green. Without our definitions, there is no colour, sound, or sensation. Without our definitions, there is no seeking, curiosity, or following the scent.
Without our definitions, there is no pathless land, path, non-directionality, or direction. Something was just framed in a different definition than the definition you prefer, this triggers emotion. With small things this can be mild annoyance, with a definition you truly care about, rage can be triggered.Also, something ticked me off about "after awakening there is still a direction, where the ice cream is", because I somehow associate the scent with "a pathless land", nondirectionality, if that's a word at all.
That's trueYou can imagine a scent without a person, that gives of this scent.
I see. I don't experience this "scent" that you experience, not that it matters. If you like the scent, and you want to go where the scent is, I don't see any problem. If Vince would call that "seeking", I don't see any problem. If God exists, comes down to Earth and calls that "seeking", I don't see any problem. It's only a definition. Do what you want.I've experienced the scent showing up sometimes around some people, and around some people I'm not experiencing it at all. I have no idea, what this "scent" means, I only know I want to follow it. It showed up around my first Zen master, years ago, it shows up around Suzanne Chang, it shows up around you. That's why I'm coming to the meetings, because in my experience it shows up in this kind of environment.
Re: Stuck on the witness
Also, without definitions, there's no definition or non-definition hahahahah
Re: Stuck on the witness
Ok, I feel stupid now. But it's fine.
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