"I have neither bondage nor freedom. (...) Oh, the universe, though existing in me, does not in reality so exist." (Asht

[Lennart]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The ego is an illusion based on the mistaken identification with body and mind, the false belief of owning sensory perceptions, 'free will' and actions taken. This delusion arises from a separation of subject and object that doesn't align with natural reality, generating a sense of detachment that perpetuates the painful quest for 'fulfilment'.

What are you looking for at LU?
While I intellectually understand that there's nothing to achieve and no 'way' to 'dissolve the ego', I apparently find myself in a 'process' that occasionally brings clarity but often leads to confusion, too. With no one around me to discuss this with, I turn to LU for guidance.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
From a guided conversation, my primary expectation from my counterpart is to highlight the blind spots within me, which would most likely escape my notice without such reflection. For instance, sometimes I'm not sure whether I might tend towards "spiritual gaslighting" or if the ego constructs a dream world around a (spiritual) self-image.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
After several years of delving into Buddhism, Taoism, and Plotinus, and practicing daily Zazen, I'm now acquainting myself with Non-Duality. I actually view all situations as opportunities for self-inquiry, which is why I hardly meditate anymore. I'm also trying to avoid reading spiritual literature (except for the Ashtavakra Gita, which strongly resonates within me) because I feel it fills my mind with more concepts, potentially hindering intuitive understanding in the long run.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[poppyseed]

Hi Lennart
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

[Lennart]

My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Hello Rali! Thank you so much for writing me! I'd really appreciate you to be my guide.

Hi Lennart
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Yes, it's correct.

What time zone are in?

My time zone is Central European Time.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lennart

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

My time zone is Central European Time.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage.

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Lennart]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I think I will then abide in that what is without identifying with thoughts and feelings that arise and without conceptualising.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I hope as a result I will find peace and not be constantly driven by the idea that everything could or should be different than it is here and now.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don't want to fall back into the vicious circle of false hope and disappointment as in addiction and the search for amorous adventures.

4. What are you hoping for?

I hope to realize that I am the detached observer of both pleasant and unpleasant states.

5. What is missing?

I'm still lacking trust in my intuition.

[poppyseed]

Hey Lennart

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
Love
Rali

[Lennart]

I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

It's completely fine since I'm not expecting ending up illuminated on a cloud or anything like that anyway. ;)

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

When I search for the 'I', there are primarily (positive and negative) self-images and stories about myself and my 'life' that I have told myself in the past and, to some extent, still tell myself now. However, they have proven to be so arbitrary upon reflection that I no longer feel them as true. When I compare my way of life to what it was about three years ago, I can only identify very few similarities. Whenever I was asked by someone to talk about myself or my character, I would think while speaking, 'I could say the absolute opposite right now, and it would still be true.' Recently, I recalled a rather terrible experience I had in my mid-twenties. For a while, I thought it couldn't be that it hadn't affected me so strongly and even suspected myself of simply repressing the trauma. But now, I genuinely feel that it didn't do anything terrible to me because I simply didn't internalize what happened. I just didn't see myself as a victim. However, there are other events where it was different. Yet, overall, it seems quite arbitrary which experience my mind has built a story around and which it hasn't. About half a year ago, I returned to Germany after living in Buenos Aires for five years. Initially, I didn't want to return to Europe, but in hindsight, I understood that for the last two years in Argentina, I had been trying to convince myself that it was my new home until I eventually ran out of energy and went back. Leaving South America to go back to the German countryside absolutely contradicted my self-image, but it was an experience where I truly realized that my cultural conditioning, or whatever it was, was stronger. It didn't feel like a decision at all. It just happened, and I eventually stopped fighting against it. Since then, I've increasingly felt that this is also the case in most other situations. A few months ago, I started a new job that I actually find too draining. Here, too, I often find myself in conflict with self-images and ideas about how my life should be. For instance, I would like fewer working hours per week and a better work-life balance. The strange thing, though, is that I'm experiencing that work is actually exhausting only when I resist it internally. For a few weeks now, I've, so to speak, 'surrendered' internally, and since then, sometimes it feels like I'm not even working while I am. I just do my job, but think about absolutely nothing, and afterward, I'm puzzled at how quickly time has passed. However, it's not like this every day. For a few years now, I've been living quite reclusively, spending most of my time alone, and have a strong need for silence and tranquility. I try not to distract myself when I notice I'm experiencing unpleasant feelings. With most feelings, I've observed that there's no reason why they arise or why they disappear. By now, I've intuitively understood that they aren't permanent and lack substance. But there are still emotional states that are not easy for me to endure, especially boredom, emptiness, and sometimes loneliness. However, I still know that even if I were to seek pleasure, 'abundance', and company, that search would end up in the same void as the question of why I feel bored, empty, or lonely. Just like the question of who I am. I'm not sure if I've adequately answered your points, but at the moment, that's all that spontaneously comes to my mind.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lennart
Thank you for your openness! It gives me an idea where “you are” and how to begin.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises.
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).
There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Sensing/Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Lennart]

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, 'an apple' cannot be known. It is only a label that I apply to something I think I recognise to be identical to what I have seen or perceived before. "An apple" does not exist independently of my acquired idea of what is called 'an apple'. Otherwise the apple would have to come to me and say: 'Hello, I'm an apple.' :) As you have already explained, 'an apple' does not exist in direct experience, only sensory information. But for the time being I understand all this intellectually rather than actually 'seeing' it myself. Or to put it another way: there are moments when I simply perceive, but sooner or later thinking about what I'm seeing interferes.

[poppyseed]

Hey Lennart

No, 'an apple' cannot be known. It is only a label that I apply to something I think I recognise to be identical to what I have seen or perceived before. "An apple" does not exist independently of my acquired idea of what is called 'an apple'.

Good! Yes!! “Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

there are moments when I simply perceive, but sooner or later thinking about what I'm seeing interferes.

Good! So there is a distinction between what is thought and what is sensory information
Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. EXACTLY.

Love
Rali

[Lennart]

Post several of your own observations in a list

Seeing the cat, simply = image / colour (seeing)
Feeling the softness of its fur, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing its purring, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about caressing the cat, simply = thought (thinking)

Seeing the body, simply = image / colour (seeing)
Smelling shampoo, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the water, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the pattering of the water, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about taking a shower, simply = thought (thinking)

Seeing the mate mug, simply = image / colour (seeing)
Smelling the mate, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the mate, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the mate, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the bubbling in the straw, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about having a mate, simply = thought (thinking)

Seeing the ink, simply = image / colour (seeing)
Smelling the ink, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the pen between the fingers, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the ink being sucked in, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about filling the ink pen, simply = thought (thinking)

[poppyseed]

Hey Lennart

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

OK… For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[Lennart]

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It's a bit difficult for me to answer because asking myself that question while I'm doing the exercise for direct perception prevents me from simply seeing, hearing, tasting etc. However, if I have to put in words subsequently how it felt I think what comes next to it would be: calm.

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.

When a thought appears there isn't anybody who recognizes the thought, although it might feel like this. But when I 'recognize' a thought that is really just another thought on top of the first one. I can't see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking. Even when I have to concentrate on solving a task, concentration happens simply through thoughts even if it might seem that there is somebody controlling the thoughts, but that is also merely a thought. There is simply a situation which makes the thinking to operate in a certain way. “I'll think about this now” or “I'll concentrate on that now” are nothing but thoughts that arise, conditioned by certain circumstances. Anyway, if 'concentration' is something that can be misunderstood as 'thinking controlled by an I', the illusion of being able to make particular thoughts appear can't be sustained because the next thought that might not have to do anything with the subject you are concentrating on will eventually pop up. So it's not possible really to make thoughts appear or disappear, to control, maintain or choose them. Even if thoughts are conditioned by circumstances, those circumstances are caused by such an infinite variety of factors that it's impossible to ever detect them. And anyway, the 'circumstances thoughts are caused by' is really just another concept within the realm of thinking, so at the end it can be said that thoughts appear and disappear randomly without coming from anywhere nor going anywhere.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear.

1) I have to write down 5 thoughts.
2) What is that sound out there on the street?
3) It's good to be in bed with coffee on a Saturday morning.
4) I have to call my friend S. today.
5) My neck is aching.

I could not predict the order in which those 5 thoughts would appear. The first thought was not surprising because it was 'conditioned' by the task itself. Already the second one was completely unexpected and had to do with the perception of a random sound. Thought 3 to 4 don't really have anything to do with each other so they were evenly unpredictable.
When I tried to not think about my neck aching the thought expanded even further.
When I tried to hold the thought of calling my friend suddenly memories of teaching situations with my pupils came flooding back.

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Thoughts can't ever be true. In exactly the same situation your thoughts won't be the same as mine. So thoughts are nothing but an interpretation of reality through the illusionary “separate self” created by the mind. There is no “I”, no matter if there is the thought “Who am I?” or if there isn't.

Have a nice Saturday!
Love,
Lennart

[poppyseed]

Hi Lennart

However, if I have to put in words subsequently how it felt I think what comes next to it would be: calm.

Good! The more looking the more calm. Well eventually :)

When a thought appears there isn't anybody who recognizes the thought, although it might feel like this. But when I 'recognize' a thought that is really just another thought on top of the first one. I can't see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking. Even when I have to concentrate on solving a task, concentration happens simply through thoughts even if it might seem that there is somebody controlling the thoughts, but that is also merely a thought. There is simply a situation which makes the thinking to operate in a certain way. “I'll think about this now” or “I'll concentrate on that now” are nothing but thoughts that arise, conditioned by certain circumstances. Anyway, if 'concentration' is something that can be misunderstood as 'thinking controlled by an I', the illusion of being able to make particular thoughts appear can't be sustained because the next thought that might not have to do anything with the subject you are concentrating on will eventually pop up. So it's not possible really to make thoughts appear or disappear, to control, maintain or choose them. Even if thoughts are conditioned by circumstances, those circumstances are caused by such an infinite variety of factors that it's impossible to ever detect them. And anyway, the 'circumstances thoughts are caused by' is really just another concept within the realm of thinking, so at the end it can be said that thoughts appear and disappear randomly without coming from anywhere nor going anywhere.

Great! Good insights! May I please ask you not to do bulk answers? Each questions is a pointer so it gives me an idea of beliefs that need to be checked. Also answering each question with the quote function gives a better clarity. I would really appreciate your effort! I know it could be a bit tedious but it's helpful in the long run.

But there are still emotional states that are not easy for me to endure, especially boredom, emptiness, and sometimes loneliness.

Let’s explore sensations and body
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali

[Lennart]

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?

First, the fingers and hands feel the coldness. The sensation of coldness intensifies. (= a) Then, thinking blends in with the label 'coldness'. ( = b) I return to the sensation, and the label disappears again. There's just a sensation with a certain intensity in the fingers and hands. (= a)

Can it be known how tall the body is?

It can't be known because firstly, not every part of the body is equally felt so it's impossible to say with closed eyes where it begins and ends. Secondly, measure is just an idea not a direct perception.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Same as with weight or volume. Some parts of the body seem to be more heavy, others are hardly felt, so it's impossible to say anything about the weight of the body in its totality. As to volume, I cannot feel either where the body begin and ends. Weight and volume are also measures expressed by numbers which are just an invention of the mind.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

If my hand touched the body, with that information thought could create the imagination of a shape / form but just like this with the eyes closed I cannot feel any shape or form.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No, I can't feel any boundary, only a sensation of contact.

At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

There is only one sensation that cannot be located as coming from outside or inside the body.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

What is thought of as 'my body' is only an image that the mind has created around a multitude of sensations. However, those sensations can never be 'possessed' because they are transient and unsteady. So there is actually no 'body' and no 'owner of a body'.

Is there an inside or an outside?

I'm having a cold today and my throat is aching. I 'know' that the location of the pain is 'inside' the body but when I actually feel into the sensation with the eyes closed there is no difference between the sensation of the contact with the chair and the sensation of the throat ache. Both are simply sensory information so I can't really sense an outside or inside.

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

In the actual perception there is neither an inside nor an outside.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

It refers to an imagined area with clear boundaries in which sensations are felt and which is owned and inhabited by the (equally imaginary) 'I'.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The actual experience of the body is nothing more than sensory information.

Can the 'body' do things?

No, the 'body' cannot 'act', it only 'happens', just like thoughts and sensations (which are believed to 'take place' in the 'body').