How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

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mevehicle
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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Mon May 29, 2023 1:15 pm

Today (it's just past 1 pm here) I have a perfect opportunity to practise not worrying, because an estranged friend called me out of the blur in a panic asking for a lift to the vet's with her dog, whom she had accidentally given a substance toxic to him.

I drove as fast as I safely could, but told myself I had not to worry because it wouldn't help.

I remembered what you'd said about the difference between worry and concern.

They are in the vet's surgery now. So far her dog doesn't seem sick. I am resolved only to let it concern me where I can help, or when I am talking to her.

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby vinceschubert » Mon May 29, 2023 9:26 pm

Wow Rene!, i love it.
told myself I had not to worry because it wouldn't help.
Now the next step is to recognize that there is a deeper level than "telling yourself" this.
There is a recognition of the 'truth' of it.
So instead of giving yourself instructions on this, next opportunity I want you to get in contact with this recognition.
Please report on the first time this happens.

with love

vince

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Tue May 30, 2023 11:33 am

Would it be correct to say that even when it seems I'm being aware of physical sensations in direct experience, this too is a story rather than the truth because in reality there is no "me" to be aware of the sensations?

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed May 31, 2023 12:51 pm

Good evening Rene,
Would it be correct to say that even when it seems I'm being aware of physical sensations in direct experience, this too is a story rather than the truth because in reality there is no "me" to be aware of the sensations?
Boy, you ask some good questions.
This one shows a depth of investigation.
The key is in "aware of physical sensations"
The sensations are experienced. As soon as you are aware of them but before they are described there is another experience.
This experience is of a memory. It lags (probably milliseconds) behind the experience that you became aware of.
The moment that you start to describe them (which happens almost immediately) you are in story land.
Now, I only tell you this so that you can check it out for yourself. You will have to be very relaxed and really focussed to catch the sequence. Don't stop at the first attempt.
The more relaxed you are (even to being in a self hypnotic state) the slower time will go.
Report your 5th attempt.

with love

vince

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mevehicle
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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:31 am

You will have to be very relaxed and really focussed to catch the sequence. Don't stop at the first attempt.
The more relaxed you are (even to being in a self hypnotic state) the slower time will go.
Report your 5th attempt.
Not sure I completely understand this.

And I still don't understand the part about how (experience of) memory lags milliseconds behind the current experience.

We can't know this as a certainty, surely, because our actual experience can't demonstrate "milliseconds ago" and current experience concurrently. Doubly so when placed alongside the notion that time is illusory.

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:09 pm

Hi Rene, i'll (probably) get to this tomorrow night. I'm travelling at the moment.

love

vince

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:10 pm

'morning Rene,
I still don't understand the part about how (experience of) memory lags milliseconds behind the current experience.
The memory of an experience comes after the experience, that part is obvious. Then there is the experience which is the response to the memory of the experience.
We can't know this as a certainty,
We are not looking to "know", or for certainty. We are just attempting to get a glimpse of a process.
our actual experience can't demonstrate "milliseconds ago" and current experience concurrently.
True, so what we are attempting is to recognize how actual (current) experience is always in the past when it is described (as in became aware of) and that what we take as current is (almost) always memory. ..and that we then respond to that memory with further experience.
time is illusory.
Yes, the illusion is that it is something actual, but it is a (useful) concept. It is memory comparison. (the past) or fantasy (the future)

with love

vince

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:58 pm

I'm on a bit of a downer today.

From within depression, not having free will is interpreted as powerlessness, but the sense of being a separate self is magnified, a self which is being labelled as lacking in good qualities.

I've done some metta meditation and some self-inquiry. I'll have a nap and see if sleep is what my body is asking for.

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:50 pm

I'm on a bit of a downer today.
I presume that this was before our zoom meetup?
Give me an update.

much love

vince

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:56 pm

I'm on a bit of a downer today.
I presume that this was before our zoom meetup?
Give me an update.
I'm feeling much better thanks.

I started to feel better during our Zoom meeting.

I can't quite put my finger on what it was that helps lift my mood but it was probably the reminder that what other people think of me is out of my control, because how each person filters the world through their own thoughts and conditioning.

Also your implying that I don't need to listen to the inner voices telling me that not going out is wrong.

Thank you so much. I even intend to go to the party.

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:11 pm

Hi Rene,
the reminder that what other people think of me is out of my control, because how each person filters the world through their own thoughts and conditioning.
can you grok the correctness of this?
i don't want you to just accept anything that I say. At an intuitional level, does it feel right? Do you get a body "yes" response to it?

with love

vince

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:41 pm

I don't know.

My body is all tense because I'm feeling low and under some pressure. My adrenaline has been triggered. I can't work out if my body's saying yes or no.

My first thought was that although I can't control what other people think, I can have an influence on it.

Unless we go right down to the level where there is no free will or individual beings and all phenomena are co-arising in dependence on each other, I think I can make guesses from the patterns I observe in the behaviour of others and of particular individuals to estimate the probabilities of how they will react to what I say.

It doesn't tell me what they think - I have no access to the thoughts of others - but I can't help making presumptions from their words, body language and other cues.

I mean, if we really believed we can't influence the thoughts of others, we wouldn't bother to communicate.

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:03 am

Hi Rene, Hmm, i'm not just being pedantic here. There is value for you in attempting to see what I point to.
Your body isn't tense because you are feeling low. You are feeling low because of the stories about the tension. Being under pressure is a story describing something else. (what are you feeling pressured to do, or be?)
If it as adrenaline that was coursing through your body you would be feeling like flight or fight. (most likely)
I can't work out if my body's saying yes or no.
That's understandable as you are confusing sensations with thought stories. Now, don't feel bad about this. We are learning...
My first thought was that although I can't control what other people think, I can have an influence on it.
Yes, people will respond to your attempts to influence them, but in unpredictable ways. The least corrupting influence you can have on them is to be authentic. Some will appreciate it, others.. who knows..
Unless we go right down to the level where there is no free will or individual beings and all phenomena are co-arising in dependence on each other,
If this is an actuality (I think it is) then is ignoring it going to make for a better world?
I think I can make guesses from the patterns I observe in the behaviour of others and of particular individuals to estimate the probabilities of how they will react to what I say.
Yes you can, but you must always accept the possibility (even probability) of being wrong. After all, you don't have their perspective or conditioned interpretation to judge with.
but I can't help making presumptions from their words, body language and other cues.
Of course. This is how humans work. Just hold it lightly.

with love

vince

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:40 pm

Your body isn't tense because you are feeling low. You are feeling low because of the stories about the tension. Being under pressure is a story describing something else. (what are you feeling pressured to do, or be?)
Yes, it is a story describing my being cajoled by someone who gets bossy and belligerent, wanting me to rent a house from them. The prospect terrifies me. So does the need to stand up to them.

But the stories about the tension? I don't know what they are, except for thinking it was caused by depression or stress, or that it was the result of adrenaline.
If it as adrenaline that was coursing through your body you would be feeling like flight or fight. (most likely)
I still think adrenaline was involved, because I've been told that the fight or flight response can also result in freeze. In my thoughts I wanted to run and hide but my muscles got so stiff it was as though my body wanted to remain rooted to the spot.

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Re: How can I liberate myself [if I don't have a self] ?

Postby mevehicle » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:16 am

I've had a change of mind and went back to church.

I think God must be real, in some form. The (apparent) universe is too amazing to be a chance event. And if everything is occurring the only way it could, but at the same time it can be trusted to serve up just what we need, that suggests the work of a beneficent force.

Plus Beth goes to church and though I don't think I'll ever see it the way she does (Jesus died for our sins for instance) it was nice to be worshipping with her when she was here.


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