Desiring to see what is real

[Magdalena]

Hello Jeanette,

Good to hear from you.

I don't see how I can experience without a context.

So next time you’re visiting a heritage park, a museum, a zoo, or any other place where you see or hear something that you don’t know the context/label for, pay close attention to whether it is being experienced at all.
Is the sight or sound or smell etc. not being experienced just because Jeanette doesn’t know the context/label for the experience? Or before Jeanette finds out what the context/label is?

aside from a sharp blow to the head or electroshock, I don't know how to erase the slate. Not willing to go with the violent remedies.

Hahaha, nobody’s suggesting anything like this – relax!

How would I recognize it if I don't use my memory to see what is going on?

You sure recognise concepts with memory - i.e. by paying attention to a thought that comes and says you’ve heard or read it before, and so it can’t be something that’s coming from your actual experience (i.e. five senses). Make sense?
Concepts are mental constructs – how would they ever be recognised if not with other thoughts?

the only part I really do is be here while I'm awake and not here while I'm asleep. I don't know how to practice that either.

Good point.

So tell me what exactly YOU do to be here when you’re awake and not here when you’re asleep?

Can you not be here when you’re awake? Can you not be not here when you’re asleep?

Do these two have to be practised or do they simply happen on their own – kind of like thoughts?

Are YOU in control of (not) being (not) here when you’re (not) (un)awake? (OMG, this sentence gives me a headache just looking at it – sure you can relate? ;-) )

No, I haven't blissed out or had any supernatural experiences either. No delusions of grandeur or communion with the universe or popular things.

Good. I was merely quoting from a wide repertoire of concepts that people learn from various “teachings” and parrot without bothering to really look into things.

Maybe all I got is conflating being not asleep with being alive. I mean just believing I'm not dead.

Well, this kind of makes sense, doesn’t it? When the body is not sleeping, there is a sense of being alive and aware of what’s going on. We have no way of knowing what it’s like when the body dies, so we can leave this part aside.


Tell me:
Is the body YOU?

There seemed to be a continuity between I from the past and I now, but when I look at an old picture of myself at 5 or so I don't think so.

Yes. Isn’t this interesting?

How do I not think?

I’m not asking you to not think. Can it be done at all? Remember the thought exercise? ;-)
What is helpful is to learn to recognise what is actual experience (five senses) and what is thought content/thought labels/concepts.
And this is learnt by simply paying attention in daily life.
No need to complicate it.
No need to sit down and think about how to do it, if it is being done correctly, what will happen when you do it, and how you have not been doing it for whatever reason, etc. etc. etc. ;-)
Just pay attention to thinking. No excuse. Simple.

It feels pretty hopeless, really.

It’s good you’re feeling this (whether you believe me or not).

I don't get how to separate from thinking.

This is a very good observation.
WHAT exactly cannot be separated from thinking?

mind seems to be just a process, even though I give it a name 'mind' like it is a thing.

Yes.

WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE JEANETTE?

It feels sad. Like the empty feeling, but somebody feels it. Like an empty building.
Choking feeling and tension of face, shoulders and chest, but maybe these are about the idea of the thought label, not the label?

Isn’t “sad” the thought label that you’ve learnt to attach to those particular bodily sensations?
Without thought, would it be known that this “Choking feeling and tension of face, shoulders and chest” has any connection to Jeanette at all?

What are some thought stories that scream "I'm Jeanette!" ?

Thought stories are more insidious.

Spot on.

Thought stories are about failure and destruction.

Yes, this is so very common. I sometimes wonder if there’s anyone alive who hasn’t experienced this sort of self-sabotage. Maybe there is, who knows.
But how does Jeanette respond when this type of thought content arrives?

"You're going to drive yourself crazy trying to stop thinking, why are you bothering with this stuff, you should be doing something more important. Now look what you've done, you're just stressing yourself out. You're wasting your time working at this for nothing. This is hopeless. It is just giving you wrinkles. You can't learn this. You can't stop thinking for fifteen seconds. Nobody does this unless they know how to meditate and you suck."

Ha ha ha – just love this.

Remember your “Hamlet”? “Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.”
And then: “There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.”

;-)

One thing that’s true in this crazy thought narrative you’ve quoted is that you cannot learn this. Or, more accurately, that this cannot be learnt. It is in that sense that trying to do this is hopeless. Making effort is hopeless. Stopping the thinking is not possible. Meditation is not necessary.

Paying attention does it.

Thanks again for the questions.

You’re most welcome. And thank YOU for looking into this. You’re doing well.

[Mediummango]

Is the sight or sound or smell etc. not being experienced just because Jeanette doesn’t know the context/label for the experience? Or before Jeanette finds out what the context/label is?

That is an important question. All I have right now is memory. And I 'm not trusting it much.

- i.e. by paying attention to a thought that comes and says you’ve heard or read it before, and so it can’t be something that’s coming from your actual experience (i.e. five senses). Make sense?
Concepts are mental constructs – how would they ever be recognised if not with other thoughts?

Concepts seem to be a switcheroo thing with experience. 'I can't believe its not Butter'. Mental margarine.

So tell me what exactly YOU do to be here when you’re awake and not here when you’re asleep?

Nothing. I happen to be here when I am awake. Memory or thoughts provide continuity through sleep/wake cycles. I and the world vanishes when I am asleep in my experience.

Can you not be here when you’re awake? Can you not be not here when you’re asleep?

Maybe it is a skill I don't have to not be here or be here at will. I can't will myself either way right now.

Do these two have to be practised or do they simply happen on their own – kind of like thoughts?

They seem to happen on their own, but I have some latitude in when they occur, unlike thoughts that just blow in whenever.

Are YOU in control of (not) being (not) here when you’re (not) (un)awake? (OMG, this sentence gives me a headache just looking at it – sure you can relate? ;-) )

Welcome to my world. Headache is the membership card. Misidentifying mole hills, controlling the wind, other people's thoughts and whatnot are the goals here. :o

Tell me:
Is the body YOU?

No. It seems at times to have oversized importance, like thinking does, but they both change. The body will die and thoughts are forgotten.

WHAT exactly cannot be separated from thinking?

I don't know the answer right now. I can guess the awareness of thinking.

Without thought, would it be known that this “Choking feeling and tension of face, shoulders and chest” has any connection to Jeanette at all?

Now that is a good point. I've had that same sensation for other unrelated events and thought stories and been confused about what it is and why it is there, so I filed it under general term 'sad'. I've learned 'sad' from putting it together from thought stories to the point that the body does a reaction all by itself. Other sensations like heart racing, heat wave, palpitations I filed under general term 'fear'. If I could remember a pleasant sensation I would label it too. I wonder now if I just filed everything under sad and fear? What a filing system.

Remember your “Hamlet”? “Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.”
And then: “There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.”

I remember not understanding either of these, or seeing their significance. It was wasted on me in junior high school. Even now, I certainly don't see the method and maybe I've filed mad under sad or fear too.

One thing that’s true in this crazy thought narrative you’ve quoted is that you cannot learn this. Or, more accurately, that this cannot be learnt. It is in that sense that trying to do this is hopeless. Making effort is hopeless. Stopping the thinking is not possible. Meditation is not necessary.

Yes, thinking always tells a little truth, gives a carrot to keep things going in a circle. How can effort be hopeless? Misapplied, maybe but how hopeless? My experience is that it is hopeless, but I can't seem to give up. :^( I 'm relieved that I don't have to stop thought.
I'll work on the attention thing. It is hard to believe that I'm doing anything well here. It looks like a mess to me.
Thanks for your perseverance!

[Magdalena]

Hello Jeanette,

All I have right now is memory. And I 'm not trusting it much.

Good. Observe this and let me know what is found.

Concepts seem to be a switcheroo thing with experience. 'I can't believe its not Butter'. Mental margarine.

Haha – that’s a good one. Yes, very much so. Not the real thing. Empty sh*t.

I can't will myself either way right now.

They seem to happen on their own, but I have some latitude in when they occur, unlike thoughts that just blow in whenever.

This is interesting.
Try this.
Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Welcome to my world. Headache is the membership card. Misidentifying mole hills, controlling the wind, other people's thoughts and whatnot are the goals here. :o

And what would happen – how would life change – if thought content was not believed or taken seriously?

If thought content was responded to in the same way you'd respond to a drunk verbally abusing you for no reason at a bus stop?
Seeing that they are too drunk to put their b/s into action. What your thoughts say and what this guy might have to say being equally absurd. Literally. No difference.

Would anything be lost?

WHAT exactly cannot be separated from thinking?

I don't know the answer right now. I can guess the awareness of thinking.

Don’t guess. To hell with awareness.
What is this “thing” that exists ONLY in the thinking?
Could it be that “being Jeanette” does not have any out-of-thought existence?

Memory or thoughts provide continuity through sleep/wake cycles. I and the world vanishes when I am asleep in my experience.

If the YOU/self/Jeanette is but a bundle of “memory or thoughts that provide continuity through sleep/wake cycles”, is there a YOU/self/Jeanette without memory or thoughts?

Don’t rush into responding to this – take your time, feel into it.

I remember not understanding either of these, or seeing their significance.

When you’re ready, you will – and it’ll surprise you. ;-)

How can effort be hopeless?

My experience is that it is hopeless, but I can't seem to give up.

There is stuff that cannot be had by making effort. That’s how effort is hopeless.
When you’ve exhausted your efforts, and give up in utter desperation, somethings gets a chance to open up.
Not that you can give up on the efforts just because you want to though. But this much would be clear by now? ;-)

[Mediummango]

Hello Magdaldena,

On memory, I'm considering that it could be similar to a habit. A shortcut, because it isn't reliable. If memory had fidelity, I should be able to remember where my keys are, phone numbers, names, if I locked the door etc. all the time. If I can't remember those all the time, how can I be sure of more abstract memories and concepts which get modified over time and I rely on fallible memory to tell me about the modification too. That is why I don't trust it.

How is the movement controlled?

Palm Flipping Exercise If I just watch and wait. Nothing happens. If I say, "flip" it might not right away or it might. So far I can't find anything deciding which palm or when. I was scrubbing a ceiling and couldn't find anything deciding which hand to switch or when either. Thought didn't seem to have control over it, but that didn't stop it from commenting, "Are you blind! You missed a spot!". I notice thought always comes after. If it was in control the spot would not have been missed.

And what would happen – how would life change – if thought content was not believed or taken seriously?

I hope the volume would be lessened and it would be quieter in there. Peace. Maybe palms would be flipped and ceilings could be cleaned without yattering about it.

Would anything be lost?

I don't know what role thought has in whether the ceiling needs cleaning or in questioning the role of thought in the first place. That is my question, but I don't think it is born of thought.:} I'm not sure how I would question it unless thought had something to do with it, the need to bother with the question.

What is this “thing” that exists ONLY in the thinking?

It is the me that has a name and past and future existence in thought.

Could it be that “being Jeanette” does not have any out-of-thought existence?

I wonder if this is why I have always avoided using names unnecessarily for myself and other people. It is like a mild phobia. When I learned that using the customer's name repetetively is a technique in sales, I felt like I was right that 'naming' was some kind of trick. "Being Jeanette" has been divided and displaced into abstractions which already don't exist out of thought. Abstractions are safe from discovery because they can pretend to be another abstraction in thought. Hand shadows on the wall. To sum it up, "being Jeanette", an idea about history, and an elephant shadow on the wall are all perceptions in thought that rely on my belief for their seeming realness.
When I try to see if there is a YOU/self/Jeanette besides a bundle of memory or thoughts, I feel this quick switching, like a double-take from the movies over and over until it makes me nauseous. It is like I can and can't see it at once. It is a garbled feeling.

[Magdalena]

Hello Jeanette,

You've done some very good looking.

That is why I don't trust it.

Very wise.

I notice thought always comes after. If it was in control the spot would not have been missed.

Exactly.
Now, please do some more scrubbing, or if all your spring clean is done, simply put your hand on a desk or a laptop or any other surface. You can also try this when holding some kitchen utensils, or a door knob, or stroking a cat. Whatever's at hand really.
Put your hand on whatever item - the desk, the door knob, anything - just one at a time.
Close your eyes and investigate this:
Is there any separation between your hand and whatever your hand rests on if you look into sensations only?
Without thought, is it known where the hand ends and the table or the cat etc. begins?
With your eyes closed, and without resorting to thought, can any boundaries or separation be felt?
You can also try this when sitting on a chair - in the same way, with your eyes closed, and disregarding what thought says, can the boundary or separation between your bum and the chair be found?

I hope the volume would be lessened and it would be quieter in there. Peace. Maybe palms would be flipped and ceilings could be cleaned without yattering about it.

Exactly. Want to try this next time thoughts come spinning crazy stories? Simply try and see how fast you can recognize that these are simply thought stories, and so don't need to be taken seriously (like that drunk at a bus stop). See what happens once they are recognized as such.

I don't know what role thought has in whether the ceiling needs cleaning.

Good point.
Why not give it some attention and see if it's the same as the palm flipping thing, or different?
If you're done with that ceiling, watch this as you load or unload a dishwasher, make your morning coffee, or get into a car and start it. Is thought needed before these things get done, or does it only come after, even if very quickly?
Tell me what you find.

What is this “thing” that exists ONLY in the thinking?

It is the me that has a name and past and future existence in thought.

"Being Jeanette" has been divided and displaced into abstractions which already don't exist out of thought.

"being Jeanette", an idea about history, and an elephant shadow on the wall are all perceptions in thought that rely on my belief for their seeming realness.

My, this is big.
I'm wondering why you don't sound at all surprised, excited, disturbed?
Is this something you have known all along?

When I try to see if there is a YOU/self/Jeanette besides a bundle of memory or thoughts, I feel this quick switching, like a double-take from the movies over and over until it makes me nauseous. It is like I can and can't see it at once. It is a garbled feeling.

Are you saying it should feel different than it does?

[Mediummango]

Hi Magdalena,

Still not done with washing ceilings and siding so plenty of opportunity for hands on experience:).

Is there any separation between your hand and whatever your hand rests on if you look into sensations only?

No. A thought has to say something.

Without thought, is it known where the hand ends and the table or the cat etc. begins?

This takes attention to where thought starts. I can't really tell the point where it changes yet. I can be unaware of the feeling of sitting in a chair, and not notice all the actions involved in driving the car until something draws my attention. A cramp in my leg or missing the exit, or I forgot my list. And that is because I was lost in thought about something unrelated to sitting or driving. It seems like thought always trails the action or sensation. I'm still mixed up with thought and sensation.

I'm wondering why you don't sound at all surprised, excited, disturbed?
Is this something you have known all along?

I'm under reactive. I've been suspecting that I'm not what I think for quite a while. I didn't know if it was possible for me to really see it and I'm still not sure who is doing the seeing or if this is another more convoluted mistake because I have been fooled for so long. I am not sure why I am not excited or disturbed. I still feel the same, still have the same mind chatter, but some more clarity about the distinction between the chatter and me.

Are you saying it should feel different than it does?

I think I see the words and don't feel them.

[Magdalena]

Hello Jeanette,

Good to hear from you.

No. A thought has to say something.

Yes. ;-)

I'm under reactive. I've been suspecting that I'm not what I think for quite a while. I didn't know if it was possible for me to really see it and I'm still not sure who is doing the seeing

Look closely – is ANYONE doing the seeing? Is a SEER necessary for SEEING to happen?
Or is it that seeing is just happening on its own?
Test this with other activities: Is there anyone walking, or is walking just happening? Is there anyone driving, or is driving just happening? A thinker thinking? A palm flipper palm flipping? And so on. Take your time – observe this closely.

I am not sure why I am not excited or disturbed. I still feel the same, still have the same mind chatter, but some more clarity about the distinction between the chatter and me.

I see. When looking around, is there a sense of being separate from what is being looked at?

I think I see the words and don't feel them.

Is this SEEING about words?
Is it WORDS that need to be felt?

Or were you expecting bells ringing and angel choirs singing? ;-)

[Magdalena]

Hello, Jeanette,

How are you doing?

[Mediummango]

Hi Magdalena,
Sorry for the delay, I have been looking, and doing a lot of manual labor. I'm plagued by thought and even though I know that it is not me I'm having trouble gaining distance from it. Hard habit, I guess.

Look closely – is ANYONE doing the seeing? Is a SEER necessary for SEEING to happen?

This is the emptiness, I guess. It is not a sense like seeing or smelling, etc. I've been watching myself do all sorts of work and these things do seem to happen on their own, but Thinking keeps saying, "Well I decided to do it in the first place." It is like some kind of shell game. My hands do things on their own, but how much of these are muscle memory? Walking is an automated thing, same as driving, just like riding a bike. The palm flipper only flips because of the idea to do a crazy thing like that. How much of every action is just habit or automated robotic programming? Is my goal to find that I am a ghost in the machine?

Is this SEEING about words?
Is it WORDS that need to be felt?

Seeing is not about words and words aren't felt. Words are signifiers of the sight and the feeling. The problem is naming, putting words on them.

Or were you expecting bells ringing and angel choirs singing? ;-)

I wasn't expecting anything, so I have been rewarded, I guess. Maybe I should have aimed higher? ):o
Thanks for hanging in there. A choir would be a nice touch.

[Magdalena]

Hi Magdalena,

I'm plagued by thought and even though I know that it is not me I'm having trouble gaining distance from it. Hard habit, I guess.

It is a hard habit – after all, you’ve been doing this for years, right?
But it’s not even about gaining distance – it’s simply about recognising that a thought story is running. Letting it run in the background – like hearing strangers talk on public transport or in the street. Seeing how funny/absurd/clever/silly it is. Laughing at the ingenuity of it all. No need to be too serious about it.


Without thought stories, would “you”/Jeanette be plagued by anything? Would “anyone”?

I've been watching myself do all sorts of work and these things do seem to happen on their own, but Thinking keeps saying, "Well I decided to do it in the first place."

And does this thinking come before or after your fingers, hands, legs, etc. do whatever needs doing?

The palm flipper only flips because of the idea to do a crazy thing like that.

OK. But haven’t you seen that what you refer to as "hand flipper" has no way of knowing WHICH palm will be flipped next?

Is my goal to find that I am a ghost in the machine?

Your goal is to recognise how much of your sense of self/”I”/Jeanette/doer/seer/palm flipper is obligingly provided by thought.

Btw, is there a THINKER/"I"/Jeanette/self thinking?
Is Jeanette thinking HER thoughts?
Are thoughts owned by Jeanette?
Controlled by her?

The problem is naming, putting words on them.

It’s a lifelong habit, that’s all. What makes you think it’s a problem?

Maybe I should have aimed higher? ):o

Higher than what?

What is the only place where this “I”/Jeanette/self etc. that “should have aimed higher” can be found?

Is “I”/Jeanette etc. the controller of what’s happening?


What is “I”/Jeanette seeking? Please explore this.

Thanks for hanging in there. A choir would be a nice touch.

Suppose a choir did come to sing, would that make “I”/Jeanette separate from the choir? ;-)
You’re welcome.

[Mediummango]

Hi Magdalena,

It might take me a while to crack this thought thing. It is funny that you remind me that the thought story is running. Coincidentally an incident about not hearing a fax number correctly, misremembering a statement that this person also made, came up yesterday. Ordinarily, I would have been sure that I was right, that I had not made the mistake, that this person must be wrong etc. and blah blah... Ordinarily, I would feel angry, but not say anything rude, but be tormented for an hour afterward. This time I knew that it could be either way. It could be either way and I could not be sure, just like the palm flip. But it didn't matter! I could watch for my irritation, but the fizz was gone out of it and it was boring. Being aware of this at the time of the conversation and watching for the predictable feeling, I was surprised that it didn't even show up.

Without thought stories, would “you”/Jeanette be plagued by anything? Would “anyone”?

It seems to me that much more interesting things happen than misunderstandings and misrememberings and recriminations about phone conversations with strangers. It reminded me of what you said about a drunk at a bus stop. My thoughts are as relevant to me as an irritating phone conversation, or a heckler at a bus stop. After this, every time I noticed a thought come up I pointed to it as a thought and it got quiet. I was surprised at this, but I would like to get to where I don't have to give them any attention at all. Right now, it doesn't seem to require any argument, but only noticing, "Hey, you, Thought, yeah you, I see you." I can't know for sure about anyone else, but it seems to me, if none of us were believing that we were the thought stories, a lot of plagueing of by and for us would vanish.

And does this thinking come before or after your fingers, hands, legs, etc. do whatever needs doing?

Thinking always rolls in after body does something, or after a feeling or emotion or something happens.

OK. But haven’t you seen that what you refer to as "hand flipper" has no way of knowing WHICH palm will be flipped next?

This is becoming more apparent. I still do it. I still don't know. The glue that sticks thought to seeing is sticky, or maybe thought itself is the glue and the sticky.

Btw, is there a THINKER/"I"/Jeanette/self thinking?
Is Jeanette thinking HER thoughts?
Are thoughts owned by Jeanette?
Controlled by her?

I don't think there is a THINKER.:) Thoughts roll in like a wad of gum picking up lint. I don't originate them. Thoughts assume familiar details appearing to be made by me, but its becoming apparent that they are foreign to me. Pointing them out to myself when they appear seemed like it neutralizes them. Rumplestiltskin!
I only own them if I believe that I made them. Even then they are only rented. I certainly don't control them.

It’s a lifelong habit, that’s all. What makes you think it’s a problem?

It is funny that identifying problems is also a habit, a word habit and a thought habit.

Higher than what?

This was a hidden expectation, maybe, based on what I have read. It could be that years of saying I'm not that and not this and not that has quieted the choir. There is no one to sing.

What is the only place where this “I”/Jeanette/self etc. that “should have aimed higher” can be found?

That self that formed the expectation and the notions of choirs and bells is another face of thought, it seems. I'm starting to not be surprised about any of this.

Is “I”/Jeanette etc. the controller of what’s happening?

No. Thought wants to take credit, but it doesn't have control, can't pick a winning lottery ticket, predict the weather or know which hand will turn over and when. It does bloviate after the fact, however.

Suppose a choir did come to sing, would that make “I”/Jeanette separate from the choir? ;-)

If a choir did come to sing, well, thought would rush in and make a pronouncement and instant replay. This would be another appearance in the scenery unless I was the choir that appeared and then I would not know myself would I?
Thanks for everything, Magdalena!

[Magdalena]

Hello Jeanette,


Good to hear from you, as always.

But it didn't matter! I could watch for my irritation, but the fizz was gone out of it and it was boring.

See what paying attention can do? :)

I don't think there is a THINKER.:) Thoughts roll in like a wad of gum picking up lint. I don't originate them. I only own them if I believe that I made them. Even then they are only rented. I certainly don't control them.

You’re right – as long as “I” means “Jeanette”.

It is funny that identifying problems is also a habit, a word habit and a thought habit.

Good that you’re seeing this.

It could be that years of saying I'm not that and not this and not that has quieted the choir.

That’s a possibility. But then “you” are not “this” and not “that” anyway. Or are “you”?

There is no one to sing.

That self that formed the expectation and the notions of choirs and bells is another face of thought, it seems. I'm starting to not be surprised about any of this.

I very much like the way you put it.

But:
Is there still anyone longing for the singing to occur?

Last time I also asked you:

What is “I”/Jeanette seeking?

At some earlier point in our conversation, I asked you:

Stop for a moment and tell me exactly what you want to get out of this conversation and why you want it.

There have been no replies to these questions.
Why is Jeanette avoiding this topic?
Please look into it now and tell me what you find.

If a choir did come to sing, well, thought would rush in and make a pronouncement and instant replay. This would be another appearance in the scenery unless I was the choir that appeared and then I would not know myself would I?

OMG, you lost me! LOL
I’d speculate that if this choir did come to sing, thinking would shut up for once and there would be no more questions of “Am I the choir?” or “Do I know myself?”

And could “the choir” ever be separate from “you” anyway?

Thanks for everything, Magdalena!

You’re most welcome, Jeanette – and thank YOU. I appreciate your sense of humour. It kind of helps not to take things too seriously, doesn’t it?

(I just saw that in my yesterday’s post my greeting to you was “Hi Magdalena” :-) :-) :-) Hope you don’t mind? But could this have been more timely, I wonder. You can call me Jeanette if you like. Would this make any difference?

[Mediummango]

Hi Magdalena,
Thanks for finding this question again.

What is “I”/Jeanette seeking?

Please look into it now and tell me what you find.

Along with or because of the plague of thoughts I also have the affliction of indecision. Faced with 31 flavors, even chocolate or vanilla, I'm waffling. I know from my experience, that whichever I pick will be the wrong one. Whatever crafted question I ask will not be inclusive enough. Being a dilletante. I'd never hit water if I was digging a well. Which question am I asking? Is it a question of wording? What prerequisites do I need to meet before I can ask the question? What am I seeking?
What am I? Who am I? Who can I ask? How will I know the answer is the truth? The Real? I know it can't be one of the flavors.

You’re right – as long as “I” means “Jeanette”.

This is part of the prerequisite part. Who is asking the question? If 'I' am the assemblage of thoughts, the poseur personality 'Jeanette', then it will never be interested in "what is real" even though it will go along with it, so long as its extinction is not the result.

What is “I”/Jeanette seeking?

I am the 'desiring to see what is real'. But the prerequisite part gets in the way. Who am I that wants to see? It can't be the poseur personality because it appears to be a convincing illusion. Realness appears to be 'what is' minus thought, to thought, but I can't trust thought because it spins the delusions, see? It is like believing I've been to Africa because I saw elephants on TV. Perceiving 'what is' is clouded by the poseur personality or thought assemblage and its robot. The absence of thought implies extinction of the poseur and its notion of 'realness'.

Why is Jeanette avoiding this topic?

Who am I that is asking? How could I even compose the question or have the desire if my self is an assemblage of thoughts? Am I playing hide and seek with the poseur personalities? I'm not sure if I'm avoiding or I don't know how to make the question.

Stop for a moment and tell me exactly what you want to get out of this conversation and why you want it.

I (Will the real I please stand up) (or will all the poseurs please sit down) who desires or who is the desiring wants to know myself. This I wants peace. From or with the poseurs. Even as I type that, I know that you cannot tell me, but that is what keeps coming back around and why I ended up here to see if I could break out of this crazy prison of thought mirrors and self delusion. I cannot think my way to this. Thought can make a picture, but it remains a thought, one of the mirrors and self delusions. My evidence for this is to look back at things I wrote 6 months ago with what I believed was sincerity at the time.
You have helped a lot in clarifying this so far. Working on this feels like trying to dig out of a dark prison with a rusty nail and a tooth pick.

You can call me Jeanette if you like. Would this make any difference?

Well, dogs understand tone of voice, and I seem to get the drift even though the words are typooed or mispasted. Paradoxically, whoever this is, is not literal minded even though I am literal minded. Names are only markers after all. If there is a need for distinguishing one Mango from another, we could decide on a name. I didn't even notice until you said. See how observant I am not? :)

[Magdalena]

Hello, Jeanette’s (Monkey)Mind (if I may),

Whoa!

Along with or because of the plague of thoughts I also have the affliction of indecision. Faced with 31 flavors, even chocolate or vanilla, I'm waffling. I know from my experience, that whichever I pick will be the wrong one.

What a story! Thoughts are a plague. Indecision is an affliction. Whichever is picked will be wrong. (Can you see this thought story running?) Oh all right, Jeanette’s experience tells her so, and who am I even to challenge this?
Even though it’s been seen that decision, or indecision (same thing), is not Jeanette’s doing – remember WHICH hand was to be flipped next?
Jeanette is in NO control of any of this, right? So why not take a different view on all this?
For one thing, what if you considered that things happen exactly as they need to? They are not Jeanette’s doing, so they just might? Yes or no?
Consider that what is called “indecision” is exactly what needs to be there – NOW, EVERY time, ALL the time? How would that feel?

Now for that thought which says “Jeanette is a dilettante”. When it comes, can Jeanette please tell it nicely to f…k off if it can’t do a better job than is being done at the moment. (Can a thought do things?)
Next, can Jeanette please take a moment to reflect on whose voice is it that this thought is using? A parent’s? A teacher’s? A partner’s? Some other authority figure’s?
Whichever it may be, is Jeanette under any obligation to respect or even listen to this voice NOW ?
Is this voice helping? Or is it like that bus stop drunk blurting out a string of abuse just because?

I know it can't be one of the flavors.

You can know nothing of the sort – simply because it’s not in your capacity to know. And yet, paradoxically, once you know, you know. So you can as well stop bothering about this now.

It can't be the poseur personality because it appears to be a convincing illusion. Realness appears to be 'what is' minus thought, to thought, but I can't trust thought because it spins the delusions, see? ... The absence of thought implies extinction of the poseur and its notion of 'realness'.

Spot on. The “I”/self/Jeanette is holding fast: the last thing it wants is to be seen through once and for all.
And all this crazy thinking is there to protect it – it’s not suicidal, you know.

Please answer these two questions:
What is the fear underneath all this?
What might happen in Jeanette’s life that needs to be protected against the seeing through the illusion?

This I wants peace. From or with the poseurs.

Yes. The peace is not away from, but WITH the poseurs.
Once you’ve seen that Santa is a guy wearing a red suit and bringing gifts at a certain time of year, will you ever believe Santa is real even though you may see a hundred guys in red suits carrying gifts?
Meaning peace is to be had RIGHT NOW. Not at midnight like in fairy stories, not in five years’ time, not on Jeanette’s deathbed, or after several lifetimes.
And there is nothing wrong with what’s happening RIGHT NOW, regardless of what thoughts come to say. Things are exactly as they need to be, and Jeanette can do nothing about it.

See how observant I am not? :)

Will Jeanette please stop this? Please?
Nothing is missing. Nothing needs to be fixed or improved.
Things are fine. They always have and will be.

Peace.

[Mediummango]

Hi Magdalena,

What a story! Thoughts are a plague. Indecision is an affliction. Whichever is picked will be wrong. (Can you see this thought story running?)

So that is all thought in another disguise? Names and adjectives.

Oh all right, Jeanette’s experience tells her so, and who am I even to challenge this?

REmembered experience.If I'm being consistent with what I've seen already, good point.

Even though it’s been seen that decision, or indecision (same thing), is not Jeanette’s doing – remember WHICH hand was to be flipped next?

Good point.

Jeanette is in NO control of any of this, right? So why not take a different view on all this?
For one thing, what if you considered that things happen exactly as they need to? They are not Jeanette’s doing, so they just might? Yes or no?

Well, yes.

Consider that what is called “indecision” is exactly what needs to be there – NOW, EVERY time, ALL the time? How would that feel?

Feels like my old friend Procrastination and his cousin Insecurity, no, those are thought names after.

Now for that thought which says “Jeanette is a dilettante”. When it comes, can Jeanette please tell it nicely to f…k off if it can’t do a better job than is being done at the moment. (Can a thought do things?)

I am still trying the pointing at thoughts which still seems to work, but there are some holes in the fence.

Next, can Jeanette please take a moment to reflect on whose voice is it that this thought is using? A parent’s? A teacher’s? A partner’s? Some other authority figure’s?

It seems to be an ex husband.

Whichever it may be, is Jeanette under any obligation to respect or even listen to this voice NOW ?

No.

Is this voice helping? Or is it like that bus stop drunk blurting out a string of abuse just because?

As it ever was.

What is the fear underneath all this?

I tried on the usual fears like fear of being alone, fear of death, pain, punishment, penalties, the dark, loss, the unknown, unfamiliar. It doesn't seem to be describable in one word. It seems like a net made out of those with loss of the past, loss of the future, loss of the familiar. Mostly loss, I guess.

What might happen in Jeanette’s life that needs to be protected against the seeing through the illusion?

The things that I think I control, influence or have any say about. My thinking thinks that I did or didn't control, did or didn't influence, chose the wrong option, acted or didn't act on something in a timely manner, did or didn't voice some opinion about something or other and I am guilty of the consequences. My sentence, penalty, punishment is to be harangued forever about my crimes. As it turns out, I don't control, influence or have any say about anything, so to answer the question, the precious thing that needs protection is Guilt. Maybe guilt is a habit, like thought. What would Thought do without guilt? It is the red hot poker that never fails.

And there is nothing wrong with what’s happening RIGHT NOW, regardless of what thoughts come to say. Things are exactly as they need to be, and Jeanette can do nothing about it.

Nothing is missing. Nothing needs to be fixed or improved.
Things are fine. They always have and will be.

I've heard this a lot. But I haven't felt that it applies to me, the separate self, I guess, and that may be at the heart of the illusion from where I am. I don't know how to see the Santa in there.

Thanks!