I see it but I dont live it

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Leafglistens
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I see it but I dont live it

Postby Leafglistens » Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:05 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand this to mean that everything is simply happening. That what we think of as the self is just a made up story believed by the mind (and most of society). In reality there is no self, just arisings. I want to see this clearly rather than just understand on what is perhaps maybe only an intellectual level

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for a guide who might be able to find blindspots in my perception. I feel like I undertand this stuff very well but I still live as if I am a self for the majority of the day. Im not sure why or where I am stuck. Maybe its forgetfulness, maybe its the momentum of past habits, or maybe Im just in another mind game and I never really had a true awakening in the first place. Id like to piece this apart with an experienced guide.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I want to find blindspots that I seem unable to see. I want to stop getting lost in selfing for the majority of the day. I want to feel more peaceful and sink into the understanding that there is no self. I want to integrate this with a life of activism on the climate and ecological crisis.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have done 12 silent vipassana retreats (each was 10 days long), 3 online retreats with Shinzen Young, the Finders course twice (3 month course), and have been practising on and off for 17 years (for the past 3 years Ive been meditating at least an hour a day), just this week did a 5 day online retreat with Angelo Dilulo. Have done a lot of inquiry and have had some beautiful sessions in the bliss of awareness, but it is shortlived and fades fast after a retreat, even though I see its always there, I come out of it so quickly that its a constant back and forth.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Anastacia42
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:03 pm

Hi,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing I want to make very clear up front is that with me, you must post every day. If you know yourself and your schedule are such that you cannot do this, tell me, "no," and someone else can guide you, please.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you know yourself to be a skeptical person, prone to doubt, I may not be the best guide for you. I never had any doubt. I can connect you with one of our other guides who did & who can guide you better than I.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You've done a lot. The only problem I see is your expectations of continous seeing. That may never happen. I'm reading Anthony Dilullo 's book right now. He (and most other teachers) is very clear that it can take years to unravel the lies we believe that prevent seeing.

I call this, "lather, rinse, repeat." Our minds get a bit dirtied with untrue thinking, and we clean it up, over & over.

Let's see what we can find. Ok?

Loving,

Stacy
“Even those of us who pay only lip service to the truth know what it is, deep down in our hearts. And we all believe in it, and know it when we see it. Even the best rationalization can fool only the surface mind that manufactures it.”

~ Spider Robinson

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Anastacia42
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:47 pm

Hi again,

I want to invite you to one of our Zoom meetings:

Our next one is: July 4, 2022 05:00 AM Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney

Then fortnightly

Jul 4, 2022 05:00 AM
Jul 18, 2022 05:00 AM
Aug 1, 2022 05:00 AM
Aug 15, 2022 05:00 AM

Join Zoom Meeting here

Meeting ID: Passcode: 083035" original_font_attr="-1" original_line_height_attr="" style="">869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

If this doesn't come out with a link, PM me your email & I'll forward the link.

Use https://dateful.com/time-zone-converter

to find the correct time for your timezone.

Much love,
Stacy
“Even those of us who pay only lip service to the truth know what it is, deep down in our hearts. And we all believe in it, and know it when we see it. Even the best rationalization can fool only the surface mind that manufactures it.”

~ Spider Robinson

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Anastacia42
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:56 pm

That link isn't there. Email vinceschubert@gmail.com to get the right link.

Thanks,
Stacy
“Even those of us who pay only lip service to the truth know what it is, deep down in our hearts. And we all believe in it, and know it when we see it. Even the best rationalization can fool only the surface mind that manufactures it.”

~ Spider Robinson

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Leafglistens
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Leafglistens » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:45 am

Thanks so much Stacy for your replies, I’ve emailed you about the zoom meeting and the offer of a call, both of these would be great. I can post daily (or every second day at the latest) and read through the LU FAQs. Other replies below

How will life change?
Life will be exactly the same but there’ll be no doer stressed out about fixing it, it will instead become an effortless flow.

How will you change?
I have an expectation that I will be more peaceful or at ease, of course I’m talking about my character, like as if my character will merge with being and chill out. Me I the big I won’t change, but the character will become transparent and that’ll result in an easiness to life.

What will be different?
There will be more peace and acceptance, less stress - the stress of being a doer that needs to solve things I expect will dissipate or lessen, ideally completely disappear.

What is missing?
A clear unquestionable seeing of reality as it really is. An ability to see through the minds filters and overlays. Connection to a peaceful presence with exactly what is here and now. There is a feeling or doubt that I’m missing the fundamental seeing, that I intellectually get it, and also see in the moment see there is no self, but the brain jumps in again afterwards and it’s like it just completely forgets this and I’m back in normal being a person stresses. I’ve never had that feeling or insight of being one with everything. So there’s this questioning like am I just playing mind games, am I actually seeing it? Or on the other side, are all these questions just more addiction to the mind trying to solve problems?

Im also reading Dilulos book right now, his descriptions also make me wonder if I’m missing the core experiential insight that allows things to shift more fundamentally. You mentioned not reading other books, but it would be great to continue reading this one.

Thanks again for your input and for being my guide. If you detect a lot of doubt just let me know and maybe we find someone you think might be more suited. I have doubt as to where I’m at, but no doubt on the fundamentals of this.

All the best,
Glistening leaf

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Anastacia42
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:12 am

Good morning,

I got your email. Yes, go on with reading Dilullo. One of the reasons we ask you not to read other materials is that we can't know about everything out there. Some of it is not helpful.

What timezone are you in Leaf? :)


It does sound like you have intellectual understanding, but not the visceral, actual SEEING there's no self. Let's see how it goes.

Your expectations aren't too far off But the SEENG does come & go, maybe for a long time. Watch these please, about that:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

What comes up when is read there's is no self & never has been? That is all a made up story?


Loving,
Stacy
“Even those of us who pay only lip service to the truth know what it is, deep down in our hearts. And we all believe in it, and know it when we see it. Even the best rationalization can fool only the surface mind that manufactures it.”

~ Spider Robinson

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Leafglistens
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Leafglistens » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:43 am

Oh yeah, I’m in Ireland so British summer time! A call would be great
What comes up when is read there's is no self & never has been? That is all a made up story?
Right now what comes up is nothing really. There is like a feeling of a shrug with a thought that says yeah of course how could there be when its all just thoughts and no self can be found anywhere. It’s just a series of thoughts and feelings popping up out of nowhere like little kernels of popcorn. Somehow they are believed most of the time until they are directly looked at and then it is seen as a made up story. But as soon as direct looking stops, the story holds the reigns again

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Leafglistens
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Leafglistens » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:45 am

And thanks, watched those videos, they are good and more or less describe what I’ve been doing already - I just have a sense that I have blind spots that are hindering progression since I’ve been at this stage for a while now

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Anastacia42
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:48 pm

That sounds great. I don't see a need for a call yet. Let's get some basics down. I usually don't do calls, but it's not out of the question.

The only things that can keep you from seeing that there is no self - and no control, no free will, none of that - are expectation and fear.

Why is that? Because they keep you from experiencing the here and now. Here and now in a relaxed space is the only place that you can find no self.

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)


Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Loving,

~ Stacy
“Even those of us who pay only lip service to the truth know what it is, deep down in our hearts. And we all believe in it, and know it when we see it. Even the best rationalization can fool only the surface mind that manufactures it.”

~ Spider Robinson

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Leafglistens
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Leafglistens » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:07 am

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?
Thanks Stacy, and no worries on the call, I was simply replying to
the above original question but I forgot the quotation protocol!
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Yes I am clear on the above, anything past these sense gates is empty story
The only things that can keep you from seeing that there is no self - and no control, no free will, none of that - are expectation and fear.
Yes, I like that you say this, I always knew I had no control of thought or attention (I have adhd so this was pretty clear fairly early on) but I used to think somehow I had control of intention. Then one day a few years ago meditating I very clearly saw how that just arises too. Just the same as everything else. Back to your point, I don’t have a clear sense of whether it’s expectation or fear that’s holding me back, probably a sneaky hidden fear 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Anastacia42
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:18 am

Okay, good.

Here's your first pointer:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, The order, the forum of words, everything. please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

~ Stacy
“Even those of us who pay only lip service to the truth know what it is, deep down in our hearts. And we all believe in it, and know it when we see it. Even the best rationalization can fool only the surface mind that manufactures it.”

~ Spider Robinson

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Leafglistens
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Leafglistens » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:00 am

Thanks, will do, just one question, it’s kind of obvious but just in case, in the lived experience do I simply use the one word label spoken in my mind as a thought? And then I write it out longer for the sake of reporting here?

E.g. a thought about why I don’t drink coffee, simply = thought - but in the moment I catch the story as a thought I just mentally say thought? Same for other senses too just using thought as example

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Anastacia42
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:50 pm

Hi,

I'm not quite clear on what you are asking. I think the answer is, "yes." Do the exercise and I'll help if something wasn't clear.

Thanks,
Stacy
“Even those of us who pay only lip service to the truth know what it is, deep down in our hearts. And we all believe in it, and know it when we see it. Even the best rationalization can fool only the surface mind that manufactures it.”

~ Spider Robinson

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Leafglistens
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Leafglistens » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 am

Seeing a tree, Simply= image/colour
Seeing my family, simply= image/Colour
Hearing the traffic, Simply= Sound
Hearing a thought that says it’s a car, Simply= Sound (clarification, when I’m not identified with a thought it’s clearly just heard as another sound, hence put it down as sound here)
Feeling heartburn, Simply= Sensation
Thinking why do these digestive issues always come back, Simply= Thought
Thinking I’m in a bad mood, simply= thought
Thinking this is very cold and analytical, simply = thought
Upwelling of crying, Simply= Sensation
Thinking ah here now you can’t be abandoning/dissecting sadness with this labelling, where is the heart?!, simply= thought

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Anastacia42
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Re: I see it but I dont live it

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:46 pm

Hi Leaf,
Hearing a thought that says it’s a car, Simply= Sound (clarification, when I’m not identified with a thought it’s clearly just heard as another sound, hence put it down as sound here)
Pretty good, but if there's no sound in your ears is thought not sound. This is still thought.

So now try this:

u]Mind Labeling Experience[/u]

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?


Loving,

~ Stacy
“Even those of us who pay only lip service to the truth know what it is, deep down in our hearts. And we all believe in it, and know it when we see it. Even the best rationalization can fool only the surface mind that manufactures it.”

~ Spider Robinson


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