Shiva's Inquiry

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
shiva2
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Shiva's Inquiry

Postby shiva2 » Fri May 07, 2021 11:24 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I act through life as if I exist as self, separate from everything else, to which life is happening, the singular unchanging subject. Depending on the situation I act as if I am the body or feelings or witness / awareness of the situation. Seeing no-self, is the seeing directly how there really isn't a permanent unchanging experiencer.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for ways to deepen my practice through guidance with an experienced guide. I am looking for ways to be more real about where I am on the path and what blind spots I am not seeing. Getting feedback and pointers from guide / teacher would be very helpful for me.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect the conversation to point me to my blind spots and unquestioned beliefs. I think practicing alone has the risk of missing out on some fundamental beliefs or misinterpreting insights, or glossing over with intellectualization. I hope guided conversations will uncover such areas.

Overall I think I have gathered a degree of intellectual understanding of the no-self teachings, but clearly I have not realized it. I want pointers on how to realize and see that there really is no self directly without intellectualizing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have a regular meditation practice (2 hours most days). I practice formless shamatha and vipashyana. I have been practicing for 2 years and have attended a 10-day silent retreat.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8402
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby Vivien » Thu May 13, 2021 5:09 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realization, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards investigating that what it is that you mistake for a self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
Also, post daily, or at least every other day.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

When you say, you want to be guided to realize that there is no self, what do you expect that this realization should look like?
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
What would stay the same?
What you do not want to happen?


Please look at these and reply with some detail and full honestly.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
shiva2
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby shiva2 » Thu May 13, 2021 7:08 am

Hi Vivien, nice to meet you and thank you for helping me :)
Can we agree on these?
Yes agreed :)
When you say, you want to be guided to realize that there is no self, what do you expect that this realization should look like?
I expect it to be a significant shift in perception, sort of a ‘aha!’ moment. The realization should be in my direct experience, moment to moment, always available without any doubts. I expect it to be satisfying, for it will stop the seeking associated with self.
What benefits do you expect from seeing no self?
Confidence in the direct experience that there is no self. Drop of suffering, habits, projects I have on account of believing in a self which will save energy and unnecessary troubles. Emotional maturity over time and centred nature (expect this to be easier to approach not necessarily a direct result of realization). Stop seeking and accept the nature of life.
What would stay the same?
Relationships, body, job, habits, interests, skills, likes and dislikes.
What you do not want to happen?
Nothing comes to mind. But hypothetically: I don't want become a harmful person

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8402
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby Vivien » Thu May 13, 2021 7:37 am

Hi,
nice to meet you and thank you for helping me :)
You are welcome :)

What name would you like me to call you?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
I expect it to be a significant shift in perception, sort of a ‘aha!’ moment.
How the shift happens and how it feels like in terms of intensity is different for everyone. There are some that a shift is subtle, and you have an expectation that fireworks, then you can miss it.

Seeing through the illusion of the self feels different for every single person. When you read somebody else’s dialog or hear about someone else’s story, don’t assume it will go the same way for you. It will not, it is not possible.
the realization should be in my direct experience, moment to moment, always available without any doubts.
The realization happens in direct experience, that’s for sure. But it doesn’t mean that from that on that will be a 24/7 continuous state, at least not at the beginning.

At the beginning, for almost everybody, there is a flip-flopping back and forth between seeing and identifying. Even after the self is seen through. The old conditioning of identifying is still strong, and there is a pull back to identify. So at this stage, which can last some time (and it cannot be known in advance how long it will take, maybe years), looking should go on to help to stabilize this flip-flopping.
I expect it to be satisfying, for it will stop the seeking associated with self.
Seeking to trying to figure out if there is a separate self or not will stop, yes. But being it satisfying – satisfying for who? Just notice that this expectation is on behalf of the separate self, the seeker. Realization is about to see that there isn’t and has never been a self at the core seeking. So the seeker will get satisfied. It’s the seeing the seeker has been an illusion all along.
Drop of suffering, habits, projects I have on account of believing in a self which will save energy and unnecessary troubles.
These are quite big expectations. When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last at the end of the organism.

Habits won’t disappear just because the self is seen through. It’s not a magic wand for making the self happy :) Just notice, who is it that wants habits and projections to stop? Isn’t that the separate self? Habits and conditionings are there regardless of the belief in a self or not. Working through these can happen after the realization, but what was built through a lifetime, won’t fall overnight.
Emotional maturity over time and centred nature (expect this to be easier to approach not necessarily a direct result of realization).
Who would have an emotional maturity? Isn’t this a desire on the behalf of a me? And centred nature for who? When realization happens these ideas can fall away since they can be seen on behalf of a mythical character.

Realization of ‘no inherent self’ does not automatically bring about constant peace and contentment, or a change in the seeming person. This exploration has got nothing to do with that. It is simply about realizing that the self who suffers and believes they are in control of life, doesn’t exist. Decades of beliefs and conditioning that goes with those years, won’t disappear overnight. Realization of 'no self' may happen, but then the undoing of the compilation of the self that seemingly suffers starts to happen, and this undoing takes time. What this means is that peace and contentment will be sporadic…they will come and go, as will clarity. It takes time for shifts to integrate.

There will be times of clarity and many times of uncertainty, confusion and doubt. This is all normal, but constant peace and contentment when realization happens…does not happen. It will take time, and no one knows how long that is, it is different for everyone.
Stop seeking and accept the nature of life.
Seeking can stop, but acceptance is a different topic. Seeing through the self and not resisting what is are not the same. Resistance of what is still goes on after the self is seen for what it is. Resistance is the result of many-many years of conditionings and it’s based on many other beliefs that is keeping it going. Resistance is not just simply about a self. A huge web of beliefs holding the structure together. But this can be looked at and undone with further investigation.
But hypothetically: I don't want become a harmful person
I like you say it’s just hypothetically, it shows that you don’t take it too seriously, that’s good :) Why would that happen? Seeing that there is no separate self doesn’t make us cruel, restless criminals, thankfully :) Quite the opposite… at least on the long run.

The thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

When realizing that there is no separate finite self…which is a seeing through of a core belief…then our perception of ourselves, others and life begins to change over time, in a good way. There will be a time of undoing other beliefs, conditioning and patterns…that is part of the journey. But as each layer is personhood is seen through, perception of what IS (compare to what is just fiction) becomes clearer.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just start from scratch.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see and notice in your own immediate experience, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
shiva2
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby shiva2 » Thu May 13, 2021 8:35 am

You can call me Shiva
The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just start from scratch.
Yes :). I am at a place where I am seeing myself trying to imagine/think myself into realization based on books videos etc. I will try my best to put aside all expectations and start from scratch here!

Do you suggest pausing meditation for the inquiry?


Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?
No resistance. A few negative expectations like “oh no it will not be a quick fix”, “oh yeah, I probably already have the insight nothing new here”. But overall fully onboard to investigate all beliefs
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Totally!

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8402
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby Vivien » Fri May 14, 2021 12:08 am

Hi Shiva,

Yes, it is not a quick fix for problems :)
Do you suggest pausing meditation for the inquiry?
If you could spend that time for the inquiry, investigating the questions I’ll give you, that could be very fruitful.

All right, let’s start it then :)

We are only ever going to look at our immediate experience.
So we are going to look at what is here now.

Let’s look at what looking is.
1. Looking can only ever happen here and now. Right now, in this very moment. It’s never about a remembered memory. It’s never a just thinking, but looking at directly what is actually (literally) here now.

2. Looking is noticing the raw experience of colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation in the present moment, right now.


3. Also, we can notice the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.
Just simply noticing thoughts as phenomena as they appear. This is how we look at thoughts.

4. However, focusing on what thought is saying, what it’s about, what the content is, is NOT looking. Although, this is what we are the most familiar with. We are predominantly focusing on the thought content, the story it tells, instead of noticing it just as an appearing phenomenon.


5. The content of a thought is an IMAGINED EXPERIENCE. It’s not a real experience, it’s just a mental representation of it.

6. Any theory, interpretation, speculation, theory, philosophy are contents of thoughts, in short, just intellectualization. Intellectualization can only ever result in gaining more theoretical knowledge, but it cannot lead to a first-hand experiential recognition.


7. Looking is a shift from focusing on thoughts to noticing the direct experience of the 5 senses and the arising of thoughts in this very moment.

Make sure that this is very clear, since this will the bases of our inquiry. If you have any doubts or questions about this, just let me know.

Sit for about 10-15 minutes and just notice:
What is actually here?
1. Colours and shapes
2. Sounds
3. Tastes
4. Smells
5. Sensations (coming from touching something, or noticing the bodily sensations or feelings that are present in the body).
6. Thoughts. A thought can appear as a pictorial/visual thought, like imagining an apple. It can appear as an auditory / verbal thought, like the word ‘apple’. Auditory thoughts can appear as a voice or a tune of a music, or an imagined sound of a car or a person.
Most of the time, thoughts tell a story, often accompanied by a ‘mental movie’ with a ‘soundtrack’ of the story :)

Could you please give examples of each of these points?

Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 aspects?

Is there anything (other than these 6 aspects) that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?


Please be very thorough with this, since this is the base of our investigation to see what is here now, and what is just a thought content, a story.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
shiva2
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby shiva2 » Fri May 14, 2021 3:02 am

Hi Vivien
Could you please give examples of each of these points?
1. Colours and shapes
Brown table, edge, blue sky, green leaves, texture of carpet...

2. Sounds
Chirping, ringing, verbal thoughts..

3. Tastes
After taste of tea

4. Smells
Regular no-smell smell, little outside air smell

5. Sensations
Slightly excited mood, cold air on feet, butt on chair, eyes blinking, lips touching, headphones in ears, fingertips on keyboard, tongue moving, swallow saliva, warmth in torso, irritation in throat, neutral mood, eyes refocusing

6. Thoughts
Mental labels about all the above phenomena, words before writing, image of my face, internal talk with oneself rehearsing in an imaginary situation, considering action,...
Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 aspects?
Hmm, ok nothing :). This kind of looking disallows anything with a factor of time, so stuff like intentions, story of me, free will, are not really experienced in the now.
Is there anything (other than these 6 aspects) that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?
No

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8402
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby Vivien » Fri May 14, 2021 3:06 am

Hi Shiva,

You replied quite quickly. I would like to ask you to do inquire with each post for a whole day. I understand, there can be an eagerness to reply quickly to advance with the inquiry, but please don’t do that. Spend as much time as you can every day looking at that day’s pointers, again and again and again. You can have one or two longer sessions, but also please try to incorporate several small (10 seconds each) mini session into your daily life.

And when the reply seems to be clear, look more. Look at the same thing again and again.
It’s this continuous and repeated looking and looking again and again, what brings about the realization.

Our aim is not a quick looking with an intellectual understanding. We are going much deeper, to experiential recognition. For that to happen, repeated, deep looking is needed.

So please spend a whole day on the pointers I gave you, and let me know what you discover.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
shiva2
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby shiva2 » Fri May 14, 2021 11:36 pm

Haha yeah I became a little eager :D, but yes no rush and I want to be thorough!

Here is what I found:
Could you please give examples of each of these points?
1. Colours and shapes
Brown table, edge, blue sky, green leaves, texture of carpet, words on the screen...

The color and shapes are simultaneously also perceived and accompanied by thoughts / feelings. When looking at the color and shape, there is a perception of ‘what’ that is (the story), automatically. So this color and shape is recognized as a brown table, brown table is the story.

2. Sounds
Chirping, ringing, verbal thoughts...

Similar to colors and shape, sounds are also perceived to be something: mental voice, clicking of keys, unknown sound. To convey the experience of sound, I have to rely on the story or perception of the sound.

3. Tastes
After-taste of tea, the neutral taste...

4. Smells
Regular no-smell smell, little outside air smell...

5. Sensations
Cold air on feet, butt on chair, eyes blinking, lips touching, headphones in ears, fingertips on keyboard, tongue moving, swallow saliva, warmth in torso, irritation in throat, eyes refocusing

6. Thoughts
Hmm, thoughts dominate a lot of the experience. The self-talk that I caught myself within. There are also the narrative thoughts interpreting the situation, there is also the vague image of myself. There are thoughts imagining the future and strategizing how I will act in that situation. Right now as I type this, there is the weird mental auditory thought about the words that I am typing. Also while doing the looking exercise above, noticing the 5 senses, the thought is telling what is being recognized and it is quite tricky to only look and not get involved in the thought about the thing.
Is there anything else here, anything at all, to experience other than these 6 aspects?
Is there anything (other than these 6 aspects) that you can know of or be aware of at any moment?
There seem to be these two below which are not completely apart from the 6 aspects themselves but not the same either:

The feeling tone / quality: like the pleasantness of a sensation. Not all sensations are equally felt, for example the ‘same’ sensation can produce different reactions based on the feeling that is accompanied by the experience of the sensation.

There is also the awareness, which is a label to something quite obvious, but is direct experience as such. It is not apart from the 6 aspects above, but a necessary basis / quality of any phenomena. So if there is a phenomena there is awareness of the phenomena. But it seems silly to even mention awareness :)

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8402
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby Vivien » Sat May 15, 2021 1:44 am

Hi Shiva,
The color and shapes are simultaneously also perceived and accompanied by thoughts / feelings. When looking at the color and shape, there is a perception of ‘what’ that is (the story), automatically. So this color and shape is recognized as a brown table, brown table is the story.
Yes. So thoughts are constantly interpreting experience, making a coherent story about it.
Chirping, ringing, verbal thoughts...
Similar to colors and shape, sounds are also perceived to be something: mental voice, clicking of keys, unknown sound. To convey the experience of sound, I have to rely on the story or perception of the sound.
Are verbal thoughts actual, real sound? Or they are the IMAGINATION of sounds?

What we are doing here is to learn to difference what is actual, what is happening in reality, and what is just mental, imagined only.

Just notice that a mental voice is NOT a real sound, is it?

Can you see that you imagine any of the 5 senses?


You can imagine colors/shapes, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations. But these are NOT the same as actual real colors/shapes, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations. They are just the imagined, mentally fabricated replica of the real thing. Can you see that?
Right now as I type this, there is the weird mental auditory thought about the words that I am typing.
Can you see that this mental auditory thought are not real sounds?
They are just the imagination of how those words would sound if they were spoken out loud?
The feeling tone / quality: like the pleasantness of a sensation. Not all sensations are equally felt, for example the ‘same’ sensation can produce different reactions based on the feeling that is accompanied by the experience of the sensation.
But that’s still the experience of sensation, isn’t it? And only thoughts say that it's something different, calling it as a 'feeling tone'?
There is also the awareness, which is a label to something quite obvious, but is direct experience as such. It is not apart from the 6 aspects above, but a necessary basis / quality of any phenomena. So if there is a phenomena there is awareness of the phenomena. But it seems silly to even mention awareness :)
Yes. So there is experience and the awareness of it. And are utterly inseparable.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
shiva2
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby shiva2 » Sun May 16, 2021 2:15 am

Are verbal thoughts actual, real sound? Or they are the IMAGINATION of sounds?
Just notice that a mental voice is NOT a real sound, is it?
No they are not actually actual sound, only imagined but they seem to be the auditory domain. But certainly not the same as actual sounds.
Can you see that you imagine any of the 5 senses?
You can imagine colors/shapes, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations. But these are NOT the same as actual real colors/shapes, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations. They are just the imagined, mentally fabricated replica of the real thing. Can you see that?
Can you see that this mental auditory thought are not real sounds?
They are just the imagination of how those words would sound if they were spoken out loud?
Yes, I see verbal thoughts are not real sound. They are at the level of thoughts only. Thoughts seem to be able to imagine sights and sounds more vividly than body sensations, taste and smell for me. But yes I can see that those thoughts are only thoughts, not the real thing.
But that’s still the experience of sensation, isn’t it? And only thoughts say that it's something different, calling it as a 'feeling tone'?
Yeah, feeling is not separate from the experience.


Thanks Vivien!

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8402
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby Vivien » Sun May 16, 2021 4:12 am

Hi Shiva,
Okay...so let's move onto looking at the nature of thought. Looking at your direct actual experience and seeing how your thoughts work are the 2 main key components of realizing that there is no self as you thought it to be.

This is important: A thought is DE (direct experience), it can be noticed right now, but its content isn't DE.

Think of yesterday’s dinner. There can be a picture brought up, smell and taste remembered, all content of a thought, but you won't be able to eat it right now.

And why? Since the dinner is not experienced, it’s not real.
Imagination is real, but not the dinner. Can you see this?


If you had pizza for dinner last night, it was real then.
Now, it is a thought.
The memory is a real mental construct, now.
A memory is nothing else but a thought occurring NOW.
It is real now as a thought only.
But the pizza is not real now.
It is just an imagined pizza, a visual thought OF a pizza, not a real, directly experiencable pizza in this moment.
It this utterly clear?


The problem comes when we misperceive the contents of thoughts and believe that they are at the same order of reality as what is actually taking place here-now.

And this happens over and over again, hundreds (if not thousands) of times a day.
The goal is to learn not to confuse a mental construct (thoughts) with reality.

A mental construct (thought content) is NOT a real experience.
A thought content is an IMAGINED experience, but not an actual, real one.
Is this totally clear?


Real is what can be experienced DIRECTLY, here-now.
Can you see this clearly?

Reality is what is left when you stop thinking about it.

If nothing is left (when there are no thoughts about it) then it wasn’t a real experience, it was just a thought / imagination / fiction / mental abstraction.
Is this totally clear?


There is nothing wrong with mentally evoking an image of another time and another place… the problem comes when we don’t see that ‘that other time and place’ is not real, it’s just a mental construct now.

Thinking about past or future, or another place is all right, as long as you realize that it is just a thought, and that thought is NOT a real experience here-now, since it has no independent reality.

So there can be a mental reference something that is not an immediate experience of here-now, but it is essential to see moment-by-moment that these mental references are NOT here and now, they are not real.

As soon as there are no thoughts about them, they cease to exist, because they are not real experiences, just mental fabrications.
Is this clear?


Let’s look at this in practice.

Think about sugar now.

When you think the thought 'sugar', do you experience the taste sweetness?

A thought never contains experience. If it did you could taste the word 'sweet', and feel the word 'hot'.

But, when the thought 'sugar' is there, you know that a thought is present, don't you?

So that knowing of the presence of a thought is the experience of it.

So there is an experience of a thought, but not the experience of 'sugar', or 'sweetness', or a taste, right? Just the experience the occurrence of a plain thought?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
shiva2
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby shiva2 » Sun May 16, 2021 10:13 pm

Good morning Vivien, here is todays report:
It is just an imagined pizza, a visual thought OF a pizza, not a real, directly experiencable pizza in this moment.
It this utterly clear?
Yes I understand this; the thought of pizza is a thought, the DE is of thinking, not the pizza which is only the content of the thought. DE is only what is here now in the 6As (6 aspects). Although most of the time the experience is not seen this way, there is a complete trance of the imagination of yesterday’s pizza (I actually had pizza on Friday :D).
A mental construct (thought content) is NOT a real experience.
A thought content is an IMAGINED experience, but not an actual, real one.
Is this totally clear?
Real is what can be experienced DIRECTLY, here-now.
Can you see this clearly?
Yes this is quite clear I think. Objects within thoughts are not the same level as DE.
Reality is what is left when you stop thinking about it.
Yes, it is quite a mystery how there is getting lost in thought and then waking up from the trance.
As soon as there are no thoughts about them, they cease to exist, because they are not real experiences, just mental fabrications.
Is this clear?
If an object is not is DE it does not exist in DE. I get this as this is quite obvious at an intellectual level. But I can also see this definition of ‘existence of a thing’ is not how I operate at all. The belief in the things outside DE seems to be quite ‘useful’ for planning for the future. The belief seems harmless or rather an essential way to be able to function in life. But I am open to exploring this more..
So there is an experience of a thought, but not the experience of 'sugar', or 'sweetness', or a taste, right? Just the experience the occurrence of a plain thought?
Yes this is quite clear. It is only the thought not the real thing.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 8402
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby Vivien » Mon May 17, 2021 12:47 am

Hi Shiva,
Yes I understand this; the thought of pizza is a thought, the DE is of thinking, not the pizza which is only the content of the thought. DE is only what is here now in the 6As (6 aspects). Although most of the time the experience is not seen this way, there is a complete trance of the imagination of yesterday’s pizza (I actually had pizza on Friday :D).
Exactly! So there is a big difference between understanding this, and seeing it in the moment-to-moment of ordinary life.
So look for this as often as possible. This is constantly on. We these mentally fabricated movies as if they were actual reality.
If an object is not is DE it does not exist in DE. I get this as this is quite obvious at an intellectual level. But I can also see this definition of ‘existence of a thing’ is not how I operate at all. The belief in the things outside DE seems to be quite ‘useful’ for planning for the future. The belief seems harmless or rather an essential way to be able to function in life. But I am open to exploring this more..
Thoughts and concepts are very useful in daily life when you need to plan ahead, but selfing thoughts, which about 99% of the thoughts, are very different animals.

Please spend a whole day and look as often as you can, how much of the time attention is on a mentally generated virtual reality, and how much of the time on what is actually here now?

How often focus is on a past story that is not here now?

How often on the imagined future, which is not here now?

How often on some other place then THIS here?

How much of the time attention is actually on the present experience and not on a fictional story?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
shiva2
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2021 11:23 am

Re: Shiva's Inquiry

Postby shiva2 » Tue May 18, 2021 2:34 am

Hi Vivien, here's how it went-
Please spend a whole day and look as often as you can, how much of the time attention is on a mentally generated virtual reality, and how much of the time on what is actually here now?
Most of the time in the story. I think I may have remembered to look around 10-15 times (will keep trying this). Attention is in story all the time. The story already has some agenda and momentum, sometimes I am surprised how much energy there is for not so important things. Even when looking into DE, the attention quickly drifts into thinking about DE. It feels like waking from a dream, to suddenly notice the story. It does feel that there was awareness of body sensations and sounds in the background, but again this is in retrospect after waking up.
How often focus is on a past story that is not here now?
How often on the imagined future, which is not here now?
How often on some other place then THIS here?
There were many future and hypothetical scenarios. Example: thinking about what I will say in the text, replying to a friend, imagining stuff we will talk about on the phone. Planning some stuff that will happen this week. Thinking about what I will say about inquiry to you here. At work, when attending a presentation there are thoughts about what is being said, judgement of people, comparison, etc.
DE kind of breaks the stream of thought, seems to pull out the power from it and they quickly die down. Then I notice there is a thought of looking at thought, and there is a vague image of watching thoughts from somewhere. In meditation just letting thoughts be, the more active thought activity dies down, and there is just the blankness and then sleepiness..

How much of the time attention is actually on the present experience and not on a fictional story?
Haha, very small percentage I would say. Actually even when I am thinking about DE, I am actually only thinking and not present fully :D. Even during meditation it is very easy to slip into the trance of thinking.


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests