No Meaning

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Anastacia42
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Re: No Meaning

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:01 am

Hi Lewis,
Ok, so,- the thought appears: in my hand, I am holding an apple.

That thought is experienced. Not experienced is the content (the story it tells) of that thought = I don't experience the story about holding an apple. Experienced is the actual holding of the apple.
Yes. Good.
I really don't enjoy doing these exercises. What is the purpose of this.
People are usually very attached to their stories about a "self" and a "sense of self." So, we do exercises about fruit & other things to help show this before going directly to seeing there is no self. It gives the opportunity to SEE with less defensiveness about "self."

It must be done with pointers, exercises, because otherwise, it's all mental - just more stories with no SEEING.
Imaginary fruit is experienced only in memory.

Real fruit is actually experienced as sensation.

The description is about the sensation, but isn't the actual fruit.
Yes, good. You might be surprised how hard that is for some people to see. I don't know you, so I don't know what you can see & what you can't until you reply to these.
Do you mean, the sensation of there being a self is not the same as there actually being a self?
Yes - except there is no Sensation of a "self." By looking & doing these pointers, you will find that's just a story, some thoughts *about* Sensation. That's why it is required to see the difference between the AE of a Thought Arising versus the content of thought, the made up story a thought tells.
I'm confused, I mean, if a sound is heard, is that sound not an actual sensation?
Well, don't ask me. Check. Sound is Actual Sensation, yes.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Sensation ("Feeling," but that's an ambiguous word. Here we want "Body" Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels.)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)


So let's use Hearing next.

Listen to something, maybe music, but with no words.

As you listen. can you find any separation between Hearing & the sounds? Or is it all one happening?


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

WhiteFriar1
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Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:39 pm

Re: No Meaning

Postby WhiteFriar1 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:26 pm

Hello Stacy,
There is no Sensation of a "self." By looking & doing these pointers, you will find that's just a story, some thoughts *about* Sensation.
Yes, if there isn't an actual separate thing - the self, then, neither can there be a sense of self (the self, being non-existent). It was always assumed there was a sense of self. Looking, all there appears to be are the senses and the world of appearances/events/experience. There was a fleeting moment/glimpse,-what if all there is is sensation/experience, and a self isn't anywhere to be found.
So let's use Hearing next. Listen to something, maybe music, but with no words. As you listen, can you find any separation between Hearing & the sounds? Or is it all one happening?
A separation between hearing and sound cannot be found. Hearing and sound appear as a single-knowing-'happening'.

Love to you

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Anastacia42
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Re: No Meaning

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:14 am

Hi Lewis

You've been having what you describe as
There was a fleeting moment/glimpse,-what if all there is is sensation/experience, and a self isn't anywhere to be found.
This is good. Next time this happens, please write how it feels to see this.

Meanwhile, let's look at this:

Observing Thoughts

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look closely and let me know how that goes for you.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

WhiteFriar1
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:39 pm

Re: No Meaning

Postby WhiteFriar1 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:43 pm

Hello Stacy,
You've been having what you describe as...next time this happens, please write how it feels to see this.
As though, somehow, all sensations/appearance/experience (including thought), are 'made' of (or imbued with) knowing, but not a something that knows,-simply, the presence of knowing-appearance.

Note:- it was assumed, that should attention be placed upon this sense of I/me/self, that was an actual feeling of being here/present/alive, however, it appears now, in its place, is simply, attention being placed on a feeling of I/me/self, but, there isn't really attention being placed on a feeling of I/me/self, just the appearance/happening of that.

Also, noticed, is, this instant/moment/now, doesn't exist, it can never be said to be now, as though, there isn't anything here at all.
Thoughts, where are they coming from and going to?
I don't know.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No.
Can you predict your next thought?
No.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?
No, there doesn't appear to be an organised sequence.

Love to you,

WhiteFriar1
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:39 pm

Re: No Meaning

Postby WhiteFriar1 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:00 pm

Hello Stacy,

On there not being anything here,-meant in the sense,-if an instant/moment/now, can't be pin-pointed, then, it can't even be said, there is change(ing), because, there isn't a now from which to change to another now,-very strange!

Love to you,

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Anastacia42
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Re: No Meaning

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:43 pm

Strange, but true, as they say.

So, is there any separate self? Has there ever been?

How does it feel to see this, in addition to "strange?"

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

WhiteFriar1
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:39 pm

Re: No Meaning

Postby WhiteFriar1 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:23 pm

Hello Stacy,
So, is there any separate self? Has there ever been?
If there were a separate self, wouldn't it be apart from this body, I don't see any evidence of that. I suppose the only separate self is one thought of, as such.

It's kind of funny,-this business of looking. More and more, it's starting to feel like a flag blowing in the wind,-the wind isn't doing anything, and neither is the flag, and yet, there is the appearance of movement.
How does it feel to see this, in addition to "strange?"
There doesn't appear to be any feeling about 'seeing' this, at all. There isn't any interest in thought arising to say something/anything about what's appearing to happen. Ha,-like, when you've been arguing for ages, and suddenly, you just don't care about your position, or about being right,-ok, whatever, you win, I can't be bothered (or, I don't have the desire/energy to continue with this nonsense, we're just going round in circles, and getting nowhere,-who cares).

Again, kind of like,-an apple, is an apple, is an apple, and either you're going to eat it or you ain't.

Love to you,

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Anastacia42
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Re: No Meaning

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:26 am

That's very good, Lewis. Yes.
Ha,-like, when you've been arguing for ages, and suddenly, you just don't care about your position, or about being right,-ok, whatever, you win, I can't be bothered (or, I don't have the desire/energy to continue with this nonsense, we're just going round in circles, and getting nowhere,-who cares).
So, has seeking disappeared?
Again, kind of like,-an apple, is an apple, is an apple, and either you're going to eat it or you ain't.
I laughed. So true.

Let's look at something like that. It says to use a drink, but you can use apples.


Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’.

But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Relax. Have fun with these.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

WhiteFriar1
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:39 pm

Re: No Meaning

Postby WhiteFriar1 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:48 pm

Hello Stacy,
So, has seeking disappeared?
No, seeking hasn't disappeared (but, it is not as urgent or serious, more relaxed), it's more like,-the enjoyment of seeing what will turn up next.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves
Qualities and preferences, like, responses to stimulus, appear on their own. Like seeing a photograph of a deceased loved one, can trigger fond memories and accompanying feelings.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
No, there didn't appear to be any choices being made,-simply, a response to a suggestion.
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
No.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
No. There was a pause, then a thought: I'll have the tea, then, another thought, which seemed to suggest, a decision/choice had been made,-a memory of the various actions overlaid with a thought-story about the choices I made.
Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
The thought arose: I chose tea, instead coffee.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
No.

Love to you,

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Anastacia42
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Re: No Meaning

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:28 pm

Hi Bianca,

the only separate self is one thought of, as such.

It's kind of funny,-this business of looking. More and more, it's starting to feel like a flag blowing in the wind,-the wind isn't doing anything, and neither is the flag, and yet, there is the appearance of movement.


Yes, very much so. You're getting it!
No, seeking hasn't disappeared (but, it is not as urgent or serious, more relaxed), it's more like,- the enjoyment of seeing what will turn up next.
Good. Yes.

Much more fun to enjoy it!

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
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Re: No Meaning

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:29 pm

Oh, gosh, Lewis! Sorry.
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
Posts: 2581
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
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Re: No Meaning

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun May 02, 2021 1:34 pm

Hi Lewis,

More trouble with your eyes?

I'm just checking in.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


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