LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that this guiding is not spiritual or philosophical in nature. It is a literal guidance through the process of seeing through illusion. Looking at awareness and seeing that there is no self, only direct experience. No fluff.
What are you looking for at LU?
I feel like Bill has successfully guided me through this process on Facebook, and I am willing to help out with anything in the future. Plus, it would be nice to have this community through this transition phase.
What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I didn't know what to expect at first, but Bill pointed at my capacity to look and see for myself. I had a few thoughts here and there about what things might look like, but Bill really helped me to be direct and really look, while also allowing my mind to sort of do a dance. I feel like I could have easily been caught in a trap of concepts, but looking prevented that.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Not a ton of experience here. Anything spiritual was not part of this. I read the Jed Mckenna trilogy a couple years ago, and it was the perfect place to start. I feel like I found Ilona's book and the Facebook group at the exact right time to guide me through any concepts I was holding onto.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
Whitney
Re: Whitney
Thanks for registering and getting this posted Whitney.
Posting this here wil allow the other guides to see at least part of the dialogue.
This was a 10 day chat on FB IM.
Im' going to list the Q & A portion of it for the other guides to see.
----------------------
Whitney...
I think you're doing very well. from what I see in your writing. Most all of the concepts you seem to have seen through.
We have a set of questions we ask people to write out... once they feel they have 'seen' this.
They require some time to absorb and write out.. a set of about 6 questions.
They also can show where some sticky points might remain
Here they are.. have at it.
These will take a little time. Write as if you were explaining this to someone who knows nothing about any of this.
Explain as well as you are capable of, Usually a paragraph or two at a minimum for each question.
There's no rush.. so take your time and be thorough.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Posting this here wil allow the other guides to see at least part of the dialogue.
This was a 10 day chat on FB IM.
Im' going to list the Q & A portion of it for the other guides to see.
----------------------
Whitney...
I think you're doing very well. from what I see in your writing. Most all of the concepts you seem to have seen through.
We have a set of questions we ask people to write out... once they feel they have 'seen' this.
They require some time to absorb and write out.. a set of about 6 questions.
They also can show where some sticky points might remain
Here they are.. have at it.
These will take a little time. Write as if you were explaining this to someone who knows nothing about any of this.
Explain as well as you are capable of, Usually a paragraph or two at a minimum for each question.
There's no rush.. so take your time and be thorough.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Re: Whitney
from Whitney:
1. There is no entity or self. Everything is only experience and that which experiences it, and there is no separation between the two. The "I" is a label, a way of communicating these experiences. Just a thought, which has no real substance. It's sort of like an echo of actual experience. There never was a self either. Everything is happening now. Always now, so even if there was a self in the past, it's not now in this moment, so again, it can't really exist, not that it ever did. It was always an echo, a loud one at times, but still an echo.
2. The illusion of a separate self is when the part of you that is there to communicate experience mistakes itself for the actual experience. It says, well, I am feeling these things, and seeing these things, and judging these things, making all of the decisions, it must be me. However, I doubt that it is a process like that. I don't know when exactly it starts. I guess the first time someone says "you", and you actually believe it. It is like a possessiveness. As soon as you think something belongs to you instead of being part of you, the "I" is born. It's a separation from experience and that experienced. A separation between object and skin, object and eyes, object and smell. Like this smell is not coming from me, so it is separate from me. A line is created by the mind, and then believed.
It may even be prior to that. Perhaps when the labeling of body parts begins. It separates the body from the world. Creating an outside and inside.
So, whatever is happening inside this body, including thoughts, is different from anything outside of it.
So, in short, it's the labeling.
Actually, I know we're putting religion aside here, but a part of the Bible just came up for me that I think I understand better now, it talks about how Adam was created and then, this part in particular, was given dominion over everything and allowed to create names for all of the plants and animals. Seems to me like it could be a metaphor for the self being created. But that's purely sort of mental play and doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on this. Just kind of neat. Lol
Another thing that has come up in thought is, in Montessori education, there is this tool for babies called an object permanence box. It teaches babies that, although the object can't be seen, it is still there. That's kind of a sticky concept. It's like the birth of belief. Schrodinger's Cat for babies!
1. There is no entity or self. Everything is only experience and that which experiences it, and there is no separation between the two. The "I" is a label, a way of communicating these experiences. Just a thought, which has no real substance. It's sort of like an echo of actual experience. There never was a self either. Everything is happening now. Always now, so even if there was a self in the past, it's not now in this moment, so again, it can't really exist, not that it ever did. It was always an echo, a loud one at times, but still an echo.
2. The illusion of a separate self is when the part of you that is there to communicate experience mistakes itself for the actual experience. It says, well, I am feeling these things, and seeing these things, and judging these things, making all of the decisions, it must be me. However, I doubt that it is a process like that. I don't know when exactly it starts. I guess the first time someone says "you", and you actually believe it. It is like a possessiveness. As soon as you think something belongs to you instead of being part of you, the "I" is born. It's a separation from experience and that experienced. A separation between object and skin, object and eyes, object and smell. Like this smell is not coming from me, so it is separate from me. A line is created by the mind, and then believed.
It may even be prior to that. Perhaps when the labeling of body parts begins. It separates the body from the world. Creating an outside and inside.
So, whatever is happening inside this body, including thoughts, is different from anything outside of it.
So, in short, it's the labeling.
Actually, I know we're putting religion aside here, but a part of the Bible just came up for me that I think I understand better now, it talks about how Adam was created and then, this part in particular, was given dominion over everything and allowed to create names for all of the plants and animals. Seems to me like it could be a metaphor for the self being created. But that's purely sort of mental play and doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on this. Just kind of neat. Lol
Another thing that has come up in thought is, in Montessori education, there is this tool for babies called an object permanence box. It teaches babies that, although the object can't be seen, it is still there. That's kind of a sticky concept. It's like the birth of belief. Schrodinger's Cat for babies!
Re: Whitney
2) continued...
I thought I was done answering number 2, but I guess not. The separate self is created from a perfect storm of labeling, control, and belief. First labeling, creating separation, then control, thoughts controlling what happens, then belief in all of that.
3)It feels a bit liberating. Before I felt really confused and like there was this thing I just wasn't getting. A lot of tension, a lot of searching and feelings of being wrong or like I said before not good enough to do this. Now I feel lighter. It feels like relief. Like an easing up. Surrender.
4) I can't really say. I don't think anything pushed me over or made me look. It just happened. The right words came at the right time and the mind finally surrendered and looking happened. It was just time.
The right words... It was in part, you sharing your story, I think that finally made me realize that I is truly a concept. I think you asked if I could see, hear, touch, smell, or taste I? and this bit, which i believe was the same day, "this is the enlightenment trap... that 'tomorrow' I will get it." That pushed me to really look because it was like, oh this can totally happen right now. Plus, it was the same day you shared the Delma 'Dear Seeker' letter. And it couldn't get clearer than that.
5)I can talk about it all day long, but does that mean I can ever understand it? I don't know what makes things happen. I just know they happen. That's all I can know. I suppose the only thing I'm responsible for is surrendering. Just letting it be. The common theme here is that everything is just happening, outside of control, outside of understanding, even the answers to these questions are outside of my control. It's just happening.
I still don't know what makes things happen, I don't know who or what is making decisions, who or what is controlling life, who or what is making choices or where my intentions come from. Freewill? Choice? Control? All illusions. There is no I to control anything, or choose anything, or have free will. They're all just really sticky illusions. Almost like they're there to keep the illusion going. To keep you invested in your control over life. Perhaps now I have free will. I'll have to experiment with that a bit more to see, but things are just happening and being met with awareness. Perhaps the only choice, the only freewill, control, intention, or decision that can ever be made in earnest is to wake up, to surrender those very things. Kind of hilarious, really!
6) What's to add? Lol
I am very grateful to you for all of this.
I do have one small thing to add. There's this part of me that's saying, I did it! And feels proud. However, I know a more accurate way to say it is, it happened. I guess those kind of thoughts will always be there? It's like a thought like that comes up, but I'm able to quickly notice that's it's not true.
I thought I was done answering number 2, but I guess not. The separate self is created from a perfect storm of labeling, control, and belief. First labeling, creating separation, then control, thoughts controlling what happens, then belief in all of that.
3)It feels a bit liberating. Before I felt really confused and like there was this thing I just wasn't getting. A lot of tension, a lot of searching and feelings of being wrong or like I said before not good enough to do this. Now I feel lighter. It feels like relief. Like an easing up. Surrender.
4) I can't really say. I don't think anything pushed me over or made me look. It just happened. The right words came at the right time and the mind finally surrendered and looking happened. It was just time.
The right words... It was in part, you sharing your story, I think that finally made me realize that I is truly a concept. I think you asked if I could see, hear, touch, smell, or taste I? and this bit, which i believe was the same day, "this is the enlightenment trap... that 'tomorrow' I will get it." That pushed me to really look because it was like, oh this can totally happen right now. Plus, it was the same day you shared the Delma 'Dear Seeker' letter. And it couldn't get clearer than that.
5)I can talk about it all day long, but does that mean I can ever understand it? I don't know what makes things happen. I just know they happen. That's all I can know. I suppose the only thing I'm responsible for is surrendering. Just letting it be. The common theme here is that everything is just happening, outside of control, outside of understanding, even the answers to these questions are outside of my control. It's just happening.
I still don't know what makes things happen, I don't know who or what is making decisions, who or what is controlling life, who or what is making choices or where my intentions come from. Freewill? Choice? Control? All illusions. There is no I to control anything, or choose anything, or have free will. They're all just really sticky illusions. Almost like they're there to keep the illusion going. To keep you invested in your control over life. Perhaps now I have free will. I'll have to experiment with that a bit more to see, but things are just happening and being met with awareness. Perhaps the only choice, the only freewill, control, intention, or decision that can ever be made in earnest is to wake up, to surrender those very things. Kind of hilarious, really!
6) What's to add? Lol
I am very grateful to you for all of this.
I do have one small thing to add. There's this part of me that's saying, I did it! And feels proud. However, I know a more accurate way to say it is, it happened. I guess those kind of thoughts will always be there? It's like a thought like that comes up, but I'm able to quickly notice that's it's not true.
Re: Whitney
Bill
the only way to see it is to look for it.
physically look
with your whole being
May 26, 2020, 11:09 AM
Whitney B
So, does that mean look with my eyes, my senses, my feelings and thoughts. Use all of it to look?
May 26, 2020, 11:10 AM
Bill
yes. not so much on thoughts.. but we can't really separate them out.. they come up. but your senses.. yes
I might have some other pointers along this line. I've been asking you to LOOK in almost every exchange we've had. Don't think you're slow or anything... this is what everyone does..
first we try to 'get it' with our heads
then eventually we see that doesn't do it
now you are seeing that
so you can start actually looking. You already are looking. .. its just not noticed.
there is no future state of being more present or aware than you are right now
this is the enlightenment trap.... that 'tomorrow' I will get it
not now
but now is the only time there is
can you see that?
May 26, 2020, 11:11 AM
Whitney B
Yes. 🤯
May 26, 2020, 11:14 AM
Bill
Life is happening.. just not to a 'me'
May 26, 2020, 11:15 AM
Whitney B
Sure. I'm going to look. That really blew my mind, and I have nothing to add to it and no real thoughts on it, so looking seems the only way forward.
May 26, 2020, 11:17 AM
Whitney B
So, I took a walk. And really tried to look with my whole being at a self. Lots of thoughts, lots of questions, kind of going on in the background. Started sensing, experiencing, saw I was a part of a whole. Like the experiencing and the senses make me part of that whole, makes it all part of me and me all part of it. The self, the stories, memories, all imagination. Not real.
May 26, 2020, 12:22 PM
Whitney B
The only other thing I'd like to add is that at first there was like this resistance, this sense of self, really, like being very aware that I'm the only one who can hear my thoughts, I'm the only one feeling what I feel, and so on. Then I just tried to let go of that, and relax, and that's when the sensing and experiencing made more sense. And then I started to see the connection between directly experiencing and whatvis being experienced.
May 26, 2020, 2:04 PM
Whitney B
Wow. So, I looked. Intently and slowly. Started with my eyes. Just seeing and what is seen, no deliniation between what is seen and what is seeing. Listened, no deliniation between what is heard and being heard. Felt. No deliniation and so on... Then I did it all at the same time. It was just that.Just experience. Then, I looked at my thoughts, and I experimented with them. I made the voice in my head go silent, still thinking, but silently, almost like someone mouthing words. Then, I changed the thought language into gibberish. When I stopped, I thought, I did that surely? No! It was a thought that came from a thought that came from a thought that was responding to a sensation that was directed by a thought. Ad infinitum. All of it being witnessed. Perhaps the witness is the self? No! It may be the closest thing, the thing we say is the self, the thing that views, hears, tastes, touches, smells, the viewpoint from which the self arises, but it's prior to self. There was no self in any of those experiences and the thoughts were imaginary. How else could they be manipulated so? That was a very interesting experiment! 😂 After that I read the Delma thing again. I looked. Just looked and what is completely absent is anything but the looking and the seen. It's the only thing that's real. Everything else is pure imagination.
May 26, 2020, 9:22 PM
Whitney B
When you paint a picture of a flower, the image you create is not a real flower. When you think a thought the thought is not real. It's the image of what's real.
May 26, 2020, 9:32 PM
Whitney B
So, I took a walk. And really tried to look with my whole being at a self. Lots of thoughts, lots of questions, kind of going on in the background. Started sensing, experiencing, saw I was a part of a whole. Like the experiencing and the senses make me part of that whole, makes it all part of me and me all part of it. The self, the stories, memories, all imagination. Not real.
May 26, 2020, 12:22 PM
the only way to see it is to look for it.
physically look
with your whole being
May 26, 2020, 11:09 AM
Whitney B
So, does that mean look with my eyes, my senses, my feelings and thoughts. Use all of it to look?
May 26, 2020, 11:10 AM
Bill
yes. not so much on thoughts.. but we can't really separate them out.. they come up. but your senses.. yes
I might have some other pointers along this line. I've been asking you to LOOK in almost every exchange we've had. Don't think you're slow or anything... this is what everyone does..
first we try to 'get it' with our heads
then eventually we see that doesn't do it
now you are seeing that
so you can start actually looking. You already are looking. .. its just not noticed.
there is no future state of being more present or aware than you are right now
this is the enlightenment trap.... that 'tomorrow' I will get it
not now
but now is the only time there is
can you see that?
May 26, 2020, 11:11 AM
Whitney B
Yes. 🤯
May 26, 2020, 11:14 AM
Bill
Life is happening.. just not to a 'me'
May 26, 2020, 11:15 AM
Whitney B
Sure. I'm going to look. That really blew my mind, and I have nothing to add to it and no real thoughts on it, so looking seems the only way forward.
May 26, 2020, 11:17 AM
Whitney B
So, I took a walk. And really tried to look with my whole being at a self. Lots of thoughts, lots of questions, kind of going on in the background. Started sensing, experiencing, saw I was a part of a whole. Like the experiencing and the senses make me part of that whole, makes it all part of me and me all part of it. The self, the stories, memories, all imagination. Not real.
May 26, 2020, 12:22 PM
Whitney B
The only other thing I'd like to add is that at first there was like this resistance, this sense of self, really, like being very aware that I'm the only one who can hear my thoughts, I'm the only one feeling what I feel, and so on. Then I just tried to let go of that, and relax, and that's when the sensing and experiencing made more sense. And then I started to see the connection between directly experiencing and whatvis being experienced.
May 26, 2020, 2:04 PM
Whitney B
Wow. So, I looked. Intently and slowly. Started with my eyes. Just seeing and what is seen, no deliniation between what is seen and what is seeing. Listened, no deliniation between what is heard and being heard. Felt. No deliniation and so on... Then I did it all at the same time. It was just that.Just experience. Then, I looked at my thoughts, and I experimented with them. I made the voice in my head go silent, still thinking, but silently, almost like someone mouthing words. Then, I changed the thought language into gibberish. When I stopped, I thought, I did that surely? No! It was a thought that came from a thought that came from a thought that was responding to a sensation that was directed by a thought. Ad infinitum. All of it being witnessed. Perhaps the witness is the self? No! It may be the closest thing, the thing we say is the self, the thing that views, hears, tastes, touches, smells, the viewpoint from which the self arises, but it's prior to self. There was no self in any of those experiences and the thoughts were imaginary. How else could they be manipulated so? That was a very interesting experiment! 😂 After that I read the Delma thing again. I looked. Just looked and what is completely absent is anything but the looking and the seen. It's the only thing that's real. Everything else is pure imagination.
May 26, 2020, 9:22 PM
Whitney B
When you paint a picture of a flower, the image you create is not a real flower. When you think a thought the thought is not real. It's the image of what's real.
May 26, 2020, 9:32 PM
Whitney B
So, I took a walk. And really tried to look with my whole being at a self. Lots of thoughts, lots of questions, kind of going on in the background. Started sensing, experiencing, saw I was a part of a whole. Like the experiencing and the senses make me part of that whole, makes it all part of me and me all part of it. The self, the stories, memories, all imagination. Not real.
May 26, 2020, 12:22 PM
Re: Whitney
Hi Bill,
That's great. Refreshing to read. Thank you. I do not have any more questions for Whitney.
Jon
That's great. Refreshing to read. Thank you. I do not have any more questions for Whitney.
Jon
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