would someone be willing to be my guide please

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Carolyn Drake
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would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby Carolyn Drake » Mon May 19, 2014 9:15 pm

Would someone be willing to be my guide please?

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JonathanR
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby JonathanR » Mon May 19, 2014 9:30 pm

Hello Carolyn,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.


I'm happy to guide you. Perhaps you might like to let me know a little about what has bought you here and any hopes or expectations you may have? Write as much or as little as you like.

Good wishes,

Jonathan

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Carolyn Drake
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby Carolyn Drake » Mon May 19, 2014 10:06 pm

Hello Jonathan,
This is very exciting. Thank you for responding so quickly.
Three weeks ago I had not heard of this opportunity. I first heard LU uttered by a friend, and then another, and then another. It just appeared everywhere. I went to a face to face on Saturday. I didn't really feel connected there but it did kindle my curiosity even further.
Curiosity, tension, jumping over the cliff.... a tiny hint of all these....
Enough for starters?
Carolyn

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JonathanR
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby JonathanR » Mon May 19, 2014 11:28 pm

Hello again Carolyn,

Thanks for your reply. Face to face sounds interesting. The feeling of excitement is not at all uncommon.

You may already know what we do here in the guiding area ? it is very much like a back and forth conversation, an exchange, as between friends if you like? I will write more tomorrow but first, before continuing any further, here are a few guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only. Answer from what you believe is true, rather than replying with what you have been told by non-duality teachers or what you have studied. We are here to address your beliefs, not ideas that may have been instilled by others - Not that there is anything at all wrong with that - I just want to be clear what we are looking at here.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
(Scroll down the page)

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function (I'll explain how it works tomorrow)It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

When writing a long post in the text editor, it might be a good idea to periodically copy and paste your text into notepad or another text editor on your computer, as it is not uncommon to be logged off automatically and lose all your text.

Also, Carolyn, I'm in the UK and I wonder which is your time zone or country? This info may help me to time my messages to you.


Best wishes,

Jonathan.

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Carolyn Drake
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby Carolyn Drake » Mon May 19, 2014 11:39 pm

Hello again Jonathan,
Yes I accept the four points and appreciate the practical suggestions.
I'm also in the UK, so timing should be relatively easy.
I have a very strong resistance to behaving as I'm expected to so I will be watching this closely!
Good night
Carolyn

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JonathanR
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby JonathanR » Tue May 20, 2014 8:29 am

Hello Carolyn,

Thank you for agreeing to these things. Just want to assure you that nobody will be judging you and that this is not a test, just a conversation.
Curiosity, tension, jumping over the cliff.... a tiny hint of all these....
Enough for starters?
This is great, thank you. How about ideas of what liberstion might do for you? Do you have thoughts about what ought to happen? If so let me know.


J.

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Carolyn Drake
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby Carolyn Drake » Tue May 20, 2014 10:06 am

I don't know what liberation is. Its a word, describing an experience I think.
My life is a multitude of experiences, mostly going deep.
Some still, vast, timeless, others relentless waves rolling and sometimes breaking.
I'm using words to describe what seems undescribable....i don't like that.
I suppose liberation may look something like allowing myself even more freedom to let myself go with these experiences??? At least that may be a small, tangible part of it.
C

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JonathanR
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby JonathanR » Tue May 20, 2014 1:45 pm

I don't know what liberation is. Its a word, describing an experience I think.
My life is a multitude of experiences, mostly going deep.
Some still, vast, timeless, others relentless waves rolling and sometimes breaking.
I'm using words to describe what seems undescribable....i don't like that.
I suppose liberation may look something like allowing myself even more freedom to let myself go with these experiences??? At least that may be a small, tangible part of it.
This is all fine. It's very good that you don't have a fixed idea of what liberation might be.

Now we can get on to the focus of our conversation which will all be about seeing through the illusion of a separate entity 'self'.

What comes up when you read the following?... 'There is no self, nor was there ever nor will there be, in any shape of form....'me', 'I', 'self' are just labels behind which there is no real entity'?


Bet wishes,

J.

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Carolyn Drake
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby Carolyn Drake » Tue May 20, 2014 2:29 pm

Hello again,
I've heard this so many times. I've thought about it. I can rationalize it. Part of me would like to answer.... "yes, of course I agree with the statement". But its not the truth. That everything around me is composed of an ever changing combination of "atoms" I get a feeling of deep resonance for. But I can't get away from the idea that at some level I choose to move my foot.
"My foot' can be a label, 'me' can be a label but whatever is behind the label of 'me' does have a choice in its actions to a certain extent.
Hum......
Carolyn

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JonathanR
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby JonathanR » Tue May 20, 2014 4:40 pm

OK. Thank you. It's good to be perfectly honest. :-)
But I can't get away from the idea that at some level I choose to move my foot.
"My foot' can be a label, 'me' can be a label but whatever is behind the label of 'me' does have a choice in its actions to a certain extent.
Whatever is behind the label? take a look.

How do you FEEl about the statement that there 'never was, is not nor ever will be a separate self'? Forget for a moment that you disagree with it and quietly take some time to focus on the statement. Then let me know your feeling, whatever that may be.
That everything around me is composed of an ever changing combination of "atoms"


Can you give an idea of how you know this is the case? Do you directly experience 'an ever changing combination of atoms'?

Best wishes

Jonathan.

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Carolyn Drake
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby Carolyn Drake » Tue May 20, 2014 6:13 pm

[
Whatever is behind the label? take a look
.

My current experience behind the label of foot is feeling the sofa, seeing it. This is linked to my past learning that this bit of bones etc makes up part of my body and is pretty useful to walk with.
How do you FEEl about the statement that there 'never was, is not nor ever will be a separate self'? Forget for a moment that you disagree with it and quietly take some time to focus on the statement. Then let me know your feeling, whatever that may be.
I don't think I said I disagree with it, at least I tried to say I would like to agree but it doesn't resonate with me at the moment. So frustration. Yes frustration that people around me keep saying the words, a particular combination of words which sound hollow.
Can you give an idea of how you know this is the case? Do you directly experience 'an ever changing combination of atoms'
?

No I cant. Its the best intellectual understanding working hypothesis I have and as yet I'm not aware of any direct experience that contradicts it.

Best wishes

Carolyn]

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JonathanR
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby JonathanR » Tue May 20, 2014 11:20 pm

Hello Carolyn,

I apologise for messing up on the 'quote' function in my last message.
My current experience behind the label of foot is feeling the sofa, seeing it. This is linked to my past learning that this bit of bones etc makes up part of my body and is pretty useful to walk with.
Alright, let's look at this sensation. Take some time. Get comfortable and then quietly focus on the pure sensation of foot feeling the sofa. It is important that you give this looking a chance, so just for now forget about any theories to do with bones or usefulness or walking or even 'foot'.

Do you find an 'I' that 'does' the feeling?

Try a slightly different exercise and one that seems to be quite revealing for some people. Staying with the senses, close your eyes and just listen to sounds. Within those sensations can you locate 'the hearer'?

Let me know how you get on.

J.

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Carolyn Drake
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby Carolyn Drake » Wed May 21, 2014 11:21 pm

Hello Jonathan,
I've been with this all day.
Moving my foot, hearing sounds.
In an ocean of sensation, thoughts, emotions and memories I hold the helm, I make many choices (all of which I understand as being dependent, interrelated by conditions). The 'I' is not in inverted commas on the previous sentence as I have a clear experience of awareness of me holding and choosing.

I'm frustrated and annoyed because this description fits my current experience but does not fit what I think is 'the right answer'.

Ohhhhhh

Thanks
Carolyn

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JonathanR
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby JonathanR » Thu May 22, 2014 12:11 pm

Hello Carolyn,

Well done for spending time looking at these sensations. An ocean of sensations' is quite a compelling image. Since it is so oceanic, can you find a line in all this experience behind which it's possible to observe a chooser making choices.

I hold the helm,

What and where is the helm? Is it in the body?

Is there a real 'I' that 'holds the helm' or, is 'I hold the helm' a thought?

Now try looking. At an orange, perhaps. Is there a 'me doing it' or is there just the moment to moment experience?


About your frustration; It can take different amounts of time to move through the gate, for some it's quick,.for others it takes a long time. But it is worth doing. The main thing is not to give up. I take your frustration as a sign that you have engaged with this process.

Best wishes,

J.

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Carolyn Drake
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Re: would someone be willing to be my guide please

Postby Carolyn Drake » Thu May 22, 2014 10:35 pm

hello Jonathan,


I keep having this nagging thought that we are just talking at cross purposes, that language is getting in the way and I am a child dumped in a foreign country where I know how to ask for a drink in this foreign language but am unable to explain or describe exactly what I would like. :... but stories, stories


My sea of sensations, emotions and thoughts is centred around my physical body. The focus of this awareness shifts around. Thought seem to be centred around the head, often behind the eyes, sounds towards my temples. Emotions tend to be lower in my body ... throat, jaw, chest, abdomen.... usually linked to tightening. Physical sensations (and often pain) are usually more specific to a part of the body.
Beyond this first level of sensations, thoughts and emotions is an awareness of these sensations, thoughts and emotions which seems to arise out of a combination of all three and the surrounding world and memories and probably many other things.....
Within this awareness arises an experience of an entity with common movement, purpose and energy which does have some degree of control in the actions or reactions of this entity. It is neither in or out of the body, it arises out of the continually changing entity which has no boundaries.

can you find a line in all this experience behind which it's possible to observe a chooser making choices.
No
What and where is the helm? Is it in the body?
Described above
Is there a real 'I' that 'holds the helm' or, is 'I hold the helm' a thought
?
Not a though, an arising experience
Now try looking. At an orange, perhaps. Is there a 'me doing it' or is there just the moment to moment experience
?

I don't like closed questions. Neither answer fits my experience. My initial answer is somewhere between the two but then I realise it is on a different realm. No words at the moment.

I
take your frustration as a sign that you have engaged with this process.

oh yes I'm engaged, probably more than you can imagine.

Best wishes,
Carolyn


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