In need of a "rough" guide

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nemecsek
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In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:44 pm

Hi.

I'm Alex, 45 yo, a decade as a Vipassana meditator and avid reader about personal growth.

After reading by chance Healy's "Brutal Beginnings" I felt a push for this new view about liberation.
First time in my life I understood that there will be no angels playing trumpets if and when I will cross the gate. The biggest surprise was when I also understood that there is neither a gate to cross nor a "me" crossing it. Next came Jed McKenna and this wonderful blog, with its book "Gateless Gatecrashers".

I tried to proceed alone but at no avail, giving a look to Ilona's steps on "Marked, Eternal".
After reading so much in the last decade (I would prefer to read a dozen books about meditation instead of stopping to practice it five minutes) I need to clean the mess up, possibly forget everything, and find a patient guide to help me.
The second problem is that I'm in difficulty when I try to answer this blog's questions: it looks like I cannot go deep enough to find something meaningful.
Third problem is my English: being Italian I am afraid I can miss the subtle nuances of the language.

Putting all together I would like a rough guide, strong enough to say NO when necessary, helping me to focus my attention without letting my fake self to escape using excuses. As little philosophy as possible and enough screams to put the nails in.
The ideal guide is somebody who can broke down my answers to let me understand where are the points I'm missing. This would be very helpful to me.

Thank you in advance.
Alex

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ElPortal
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:03 am

Hi Alex,

Thanks for all the information you provided and welcome to LU. I will be willing to help you, if you like.

First could you read and agree to the following:

1. Please post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I can do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. In general I will ask questions; you take time to look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond from immediate personal experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which may even hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; this is invaluable in referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions:- viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. http://www.liberationunleashed.com Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Also it would be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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nemecsek
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:07 am

Hi Mark. Thank you for your answer.
I accept gladly your offer.
I agree also about all the points and the disclaimer.

I'm beyond the Alps, in Italy.
Thank you in advance for the time you are offering me.

Nice day
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:22 am

Hi Alex,

You're welcome. I notice that you have read plenty, and that you like to read. You have already agreed to put this reading aside during our dialogue, and now I would ask you to notice, when considering the things I ask you to do, whether what is coming up for you is your own 'now' experience or whether it is someone else's teaching/terminology/concepts. If it is ever the latter, just acknowledge that so that we can notice the difference between the two.

OK so I have three main things for you to consider, as we get started:-

1. What are you looking for? What do you expect to change? Please answer in detail.

2. Please read these points about expectations from the LU homepage:-
Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.
Consider each of these 18 points in turn and let me know what comes up for you with each/any of them. How do you react to them?

3. Now about some things you wrote in your initial posting (just choosing a few references to 'me'):-
if and when I will cross the gate
Consider and tell me who is it who would 'cross the gate'? Who is there to do that?
without letting my fake self to escape using excuses
Who is this 'fake self'? Is this a second person? Does it have opinions? Please show me how there is anything there apart from a label.
This would be very helpful to me.
Who is there to help? Please persuade me that there is someone there, if possible.


Looking forward to hearing your response (as always, please answer all the questions one by one). Just answer honestly. There is no correct or incorrect answer.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:56 pm

Mark,
I'll do my best to leave aside my (parrot) "knowledge". There will be of course no further reading in the meantime.
1. What are you looking for? What do you expect to change?
I began my quest 15 years ago because of a "mind disease". It was a kind of subtle unsatisfaction that was killing me softly even if my life was far from being sad or unlucky. Even at a peak of happiness I was always waiting for the shallow sadness that would follow.
After Healy's "Brutal Beginnings" something changed abruptly inside of me. I almost physically felt that the idea to meditate to reach a state of interior calm and the disappearence of life's gray-ness were not what I was searching for.
I wanted the truth.

I look for a change of perspective that will not change anything around me but my interpretation of reality.
I've been pushing a door for years without being able to open it. I contacted you to explain me the meaning of the sign on the door (written in a language I don't speak). It is possible you will tell me to pull it. I would like to be able to move freely in and out after the door is opened.
I cannot put aside anymore the idea not to open it.

Any other "target" would be meaningless being in the dream world. For a decade I was following a wrong target, believing I would experience God and all the angels. Now I couldn't be less interested in any mystic experience. I just want to "feel" the truth. Later I will choose what to do with it.

I feel like Neo at the beginning of first Matrix episode. I "feel" there is something important I'm missing and I'm just an inch from it.
To read what liberation really was has been so devastating that I abandoned meditation immediately and together with it a lot of other "good boy" behaviours.
What do you expect to change?

Nothing really. I only would "feel" what I already "know" intellectually: that free will does not exist, that "my self" is just an evolutionary trick created by the brain to quick our development as a species, that sufference is just the identification with this "fake self". Self's job is to anticipate problems and create insatisfaction to force our animal mechanism to move on to correct them and evolve doing so.
2. Please read these points about expectations:
I rearranged them where the answers are the same.
This is not a way to escape your daily life.
I did it with meditation. On the opposite now I would like to feel life living through me.
I believe this is my only expectation.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
I'm not interested in superpowers, neither things, nor to be considered holy or wise. I'm not interested in the dream world.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
I have a knowledge about the brain and how tricky it can be.
This is one of my doubts: as the self is just a thought-loop, created from nothing by the brain, how can I be sure the liberation is just not another thought-loop? It will be hard for you to help me to untangle this idea.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
I would ask Aladdin to erase my knowledge and I am not going to accept any new scrap of it.
The time to read is finisehd and I feel the need to experience truth. Nothing less. Nothing more.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
Agreed. I am not searching a way to escape from sadness or pain. I want to be able to live them out as they happen.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
I did it for so long that I'm just curious to see what this ego thing is or isn't.
I idealized it as an enemy whose task was to paint in gray my days.
I feel now as I have been afraid for so long of an inexistent monster under the bed.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
I don't expect any magical solution from it.
Ok, I just found another subtle expectation: I hope that "after" life will become easier. Not because the problems disappears but because I can accept them as part of life.
This is not a self improvement program.
Agreed. I see this as something I simply cannot avoid doing.
I don't do it to grow but because I don't really have any other choice.
------------------
3. Now about some things you wrote in your initial posting
Consider and tell me who is it who would 'cross the gate'? Who is there to do that?
Nobody really.
According to my feelings "to cross the gate" means to show the brain itself a fondamental flaw in its rules and beliefs. This would crash the loopchain that keeps alive the thought of a self. In front of evidence the brain can do nothing else that accept the fact.

I'm a programmer of electronic devices. It is very easy for me to compare the brain to a machine, a black box that reacts to inputs signals and calculate an external output to act on them. What I believe we are doing during this session is to create a new set of inputs that will heat the internal circuit so much that the current will need to find other ways to flow, changing the output forever.
Who is this 'fake self'? Is this a second person? Does it have opinions?
I feel it doesn't exist but apparently there is an "observer" somewhere.
As there is no free will an observer has no value, but I experience it anyway. Be it a thought or a soul or anything else, I could bet it doesn't exist intellectually, and bet it exists factually. That's the tricky part.
Who is there to help? Please persuade me that there is someone there, if possible.
So there is nobody to help. You are just trying to activate a new set of inputs and crash the internal circuit.
I'm in an irrational loop:
No free will -> the observer is completely unuseful because it believes to be able to modify reality but it cannot -> an observer is experienced anyway -> the observer believes there is free will when it is evident it cannot be.

About free will, perhaps I need to tell you why I am so sure it doesn't exists. I'm not a philosopher, by the way, and I am far from any deep thought.
I thought about Hitler. What if I was born from the same egg and sperm, same DNA, same parents, friends, experiences. What could make a difference to avoid so many deaths, if I was him? Same inputs, being the machine the same, would give the same outputs.
I found only 2 possible explanations for a "good" Hitler: the presence of a soul or a random neural throw of dice.
If the soul was the "hidden pilot" that could overcome the machine autopilot, it would be so hidden that a soul choose to live like Hitler and make what was done. My soul could have behaved otherwise. This would mean to accept a dogma (the soul exists) and the fact that we are not in control of our actions because something hidden is pushing the buttons inside the box.
If it was a random dice throw that would light a different neurons, it just means that inside the machine some contacts discharge randomly and their calculation is imperfect.
In both cases there is no free will as we intend normally: the possibility to choose an action.

Nice day
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:48 pm

Hi Alex

Many thanks for that detailed response.

Your English is really clear, thank you. Here I will address the main points. Please take time to consider each question deeply in your NOW experience, before responding. (The mind will be of little help).
I contacted you to explain me the meaning of the sign on the door (written in a language I don't speak). It is possible you will tell me to pull it. I would like to be able to move freely in and out after the door is opened.
I cannot put aside anymore the idea not to open it.
1. If you are wanting to get in, you will need to prove to me first that you are now outside. Please prove this. By the end of our dialogue (assuming you stay) we will discuss the two words on the door. All will be clear.
I only would "feel" what I already "know" intellectually: that free will does not exist, that "my self" is just an evolutionary trick created by the brain to quick our development as a species, that sufference is just the identification with this "fake self". Self's job is to anticipate problems and create insatisfaction to force our animal mechanism to move on to correct them and evolve doing so.
2. 'I know intellectually': How is this possible? Intellectually how can I do any more than assume, believe, opine, deduce, recite concepts? Is this not (what we call in English) an oxymoron? What is the word in Italian?

Please show me how there is an "I" to "know" intellectually. Please persuade me how this separate mind knows anything.
I "feel" there is something important I'm missing and I'm just an inch from it.
3. Please demonstrate to me how do you know that there is an "I" there that is separate from 'it', (even if it's only separated by one inch).
I would like to feel life living through me. I believe this is my only expectation.
4. Please explain to me how this would feel, different from the current feelings. Feelings/sensations.
I have a knowledge about the brain and how tricky it can be.
5. Even THIS knowledge is deceptive: who has this knowledge and how was/IS it gained? Is it 100% reliable right now? How do you know?

I agree: the brain is ok for driving a car, adding up the bills, writing, maybe for programming electronic devices too, - and 'Alex' clearly has a lively mind - but, as you suggest, it's highly unreliable as a managing device for seeing that it is not needed as a managing device! For this we need to 'get out of our mind, and come to our senses', don't you agree? Turkeys do not in general vote for christmas, do they?

As long as the brain tries to stay at the wheel in 'getting' this, it will take 'you' round and round and round... and round and round... and (trust me) round.. in illusion, like a beautiful waltz.
I feel it doesn't exist but apparently there is an "observer" somewhere.
As there is no free will an observer has no value, but I experience it anyway.
6. What is this feeling? Where is the feeling? Please describe it in as much detail as you can.
You are just trying to activate a new set of inputs and crash the internal circuit.
I'm in an irrational loop
7. Let's get one thing clear: I am not trying to do anything. I am just holding a mirror up, like at the barber (haircut) holding the mirror "how does it look from here?... now from here? etc (are you sure that head is you hehe?)"

One answer you have given already gets right to the crux of this:-
Mark: This is not a self improvement program.
Alex: Agreed. I see this as something I simply cannot avoid doing.
I don't do it to grow but because I don't really have any other choice.
8. Consider this really carefully, Alex: is there any sense here that, rather than 'Alex' seeking something, there is something which is pulling 'him'? Something which will not let go? Let me know what comes up for you when you read this.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Cheers,

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:44 pm

Mark, thank you for your quick answer and for the time you are giving me.
1. If you are wanting to get in, you will need to prove to me first that you are now outside.
To prove I'm outside I need to prove there is a line to pass and somebody/something who wish to pass through it. "Proof" is a HUGE word alas. I can prove NOTHING, but using parrot knowledge (unuseful) or feelings (which I cannot trust). I cannot even prove you exist and you are not a figment of my imagination.

I can tell you what I'm experiencing now. I can experience the presence of an observer and he is absolutely thought-dominated. Most of this observer's time is spent somewhere else, not in the present moment. I would expect (another expectation, I didn't note it before!) that when the door has been opened the observer would either disappear or would live in the present moment.

I can affirm that I am out only because the observer is mostly into past and future. I also assume I have not been trhough the door because I cannot feel any real change in the reality paradigm. Everything is like before. Same gray-ness, same everything.
There must be something "after". As it has nothing to do with happiness/sadness, problems, magics, superpowers, it must be a (subtle) change of paradigm. And it never happened yet otherwise I would have noted it. Perhaps.
Ok, it is like those 3D pixel images where you cannot see the subject. After the first time you see it, it cannot be invisible anymore. I expect to see something and this didn't happen yet. Please stop me if I'm too "brainy".
2. 'I know intellectually': How is this possible? Intellectually how can I do any more than assume, believe, opine, deduce, recite concepts?
In Italian it is called "ossimoro".
Perhaps I need to clarify two important words as I mean them: "to understand" and "to feel".
"To understand" is referred to an intellectual knowledge that I accumulated during my lifetime. I absorbed it from other people's words and built with it something apparently logical to label reality. It has been my guide since I can remember. I "believed" their words and the only questioning was related to the coherence of any new info to the knowledge I already had inside my head. At the present moment all my "valuable" knowledge is worth nothing. I used it to be the "brightest guy in the universe", but now that I'm interested in truth only, it is worth less then nothing. It represent an obstacle on the path.
"To feel" refers to a strange new sensation: it is more a bell ringing and telling me "pay attention here because this is important". It is not rational, nor logical. I accepted the new definition of liberation because it rung a bell inside, not because it was intellectually interesting or logical (it is far from being logical if compared to my knowledge). A synonim could be "faith with goosebumps". I never believed my feelings before (rational reasoning has been my guide for more than 35 years) and perhaps this why I "feel" them so strongly now, perhaps because I am experiencing them for the first time. It doesn't mean these feelings convey any truth, by the way. They just are stronger than any intellectual knowledge.
Putting together "understanding" and "feelings" I have nothing to believe with any certainty.

Knowledge is inside the brain alone. It found a place a piece at a time, each cleaned up during absorption to be coherent with the previous ones.
Feelings are managed by an animal brain somewhere in my body.
3. Please demonstrate to me how do you know that there is an "I" there that is separate from 'it', (even if it's only separated by one inch).
You ask me for proofs. Based on what? If you ask me to describe the color yellow to a born blind I would put him in the sunlight. That would be easier even if not completely correct. But these questions are difficult. I don't even have the words to express myself. I read what my finger wrote and see that it doesn't convey fully what I meant...

I don't know, I feel the observer, I experience the observer. I build an observer-centered reference system. It looks like reality wouldn't have any meaning without it.
I can tell myself he is just a thought but it doesn't become less present.

About the distance, it is something based on what I read, of course. In this blog there are so many dialogs of people whom can express better then me how I feel... And then, pooof!, they are done. I feel this sneeze-like sensation that needs to burst but it doesn't. If I try to paint it in my mind I feel like a light head and the skin on my body shrinking. It could be a mind trick, of course.
4. Please explain to me how this would feel, different from the current feelings. Feelings/sensations.
In my ideal liberated life I would see my action as I'm watching a movie. I would accept what the actor does and what happens to the actor, suffering his pains and enjoying his happiness, but never forgetting it is just a movie. There would not be less pain or greater happiness: just the ability to accept what happens because it is not happening to me but through me.
5. Even THIS knowledge is deceptive: who has this knowledge and how was/IS it gained? Is it 100% reliable right now? How do you know?
As I answered at question 2, ANY knowledge is deceptive. It can be useful to drive the car or pay the bills, but unuseful for knowing the truth.
For this we need to 'get out of our mind, and come to our senses', don't you agree?
I would assume we are using a special kind of reasoning to crash the brain autopilot. We are using its own language and methods to crash the thought that my "self" is real, alive and kicking.
It is frustrating. I know the self cannot exist. I feel the self cannot exist. But the self is the very one that looks like is affirming this. You mean we will go out of the brain to solve the riddle? How is it possible?
7. Let's get one thing clear: I am not trying to do anything. I am just holding a mirror up...
Yes, but you are pointing the mirror at something I cannot yet see. It is like a shortsighted going to buy new glasses. They have fake lenses and the shopkeeper keeps asking "Do you like them?" when the man can see just a very blurred image of his face on the mirror...
After your questions I have a doubt: what if you are pointing an answer and I cannot see it because my question is wrong? Because I'm expecting something wrong?
8. Consider this really carefully, Alex: is there any sense here that, rather than 'Alex' seeking something, there is something which is pulling 'him'? Something which will not let go?
Jed McKenna tells some times "Don't do it. You cannot imagine what you will lose". I thought a lot about this because I have a wonderful family (a great wife, two kids 2 and 5 yo) and I was afraid to lose the love I feel for them. It was a shock to understand that this "love" is created by the machine according to the rules of nature. It has nothing to do with what I believed to feel for my children. It is something like this: the evolution wants that I take care of my children to help the survival of the species. My mind creates a "me" who instead of just protect my children as any cat or dog would do, add a label "love" to what I feel for them, just to be sure that I will not run away in case of life-threatening danger. It creates a strong link which I label "love" but it is just "keep them safe till they grow". I was shocked to understand that it has NEVER been something else. Never. "Love" is just a nice label that hides a terrible meaning.
I understood that "after" nothing will change. I will not "love" them less than now because it has never been "love". What I feel for them won't probably change an inch.
I write this with pain in my heart, believe me.

So, no. Now there is nothing keeping me back. No fear. I feel a kind of recklessness as this is what I must do.

Thank you for keeping the mirror.
Nice evening.
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:40 am

Hi Alex,

Thanks for your response. Some interesting things there, but often, yes, you are getting too 'brainy'.

I think we have established now that the mind/reasoning/brainwork can be useful for menial tasks (even communicating in writing what we are experiencing like right here on our computer), but much less effective as a compass or manager. It can be deceptive also. When I wrote about 'get out of our mind, and come to our senses' this is really what I was referring to. We are not using any special kind of reasoning, we are coming back to the present experience and sensations. Please do this when you respond. Take time, consider, listen deeply to what is coming up in your sensory experience, and then report. Thinking takes us away, sensing brings us home. Thinking can only ever refer to concepts about the Truth. Sensing points to what actually IS. Thinking spins outwards, sensing points us back towards the centre.

Could you please get a notebook, if you don't already have one, and use it to note down what is coming up when you consider the questions.

It has already been mentioned that expectations are the major obstacles to direct, clear seeing. So now I would like to look again at the expectations which you have expressed (some of them are quite subtle):-

Here are the first three I find (we can come back to the others later):

1. 'I feel the need to experience truth'.

Please consider this (not quickly) and then tell me: what are you referring to when you say 'I'? Describe 'Alex' as fully as you can, not from learned or intellectual knowledge, or theory, but from your present-moment experience. (You will need to become more like a child for this.)
There is an assumption here, isn't there? The assumption that you are not experiencing truth right now. Please test this in your present-moment experience. What are you now experiencing that is not true? Please tell me how you know this? (Before, you questioned the use of 'prove', but I am not talking like a scientific experiment with test tubes, graphs and statistics, just in the personal sense of 'testing for yourself': taste, touch, see, smell, look, etc).

2. 'I would like to feel life living through me'.

Well, this is similar to the first one in some ways. Again this carries an assumption of something being different from how it already is. How would this feel? What does life feel like right now? Please describe in detail, with several sensations. Now please tell me one or two things in the present moment which are NOT life living through you right now.

3. 'I would expect (another expectation, I didn't note it before!) that when the door has been opened the observer would either disappear or would live in the present moment.'

Please could you describe how you sense this observer. There is a word, a label: "observer". When you take that word away, what are the sensations felt? Please take time over this, then describe in detail. Are any of them experienced outside of the present moment?

Two other things I would like to mention from the last post, which are really closely related.

5. Firstly, in my last questions (No 8) I think we may have misunderstood each other. I enjoyed reading what you wrote about your family, but what my question was referring to was: Is it possible, Alex, that although you thought you were hunting 'The Truth', in reality could it be that the Truth is hunting 'you'? Tenaciously pulling. Is this clear? Do you have any of this sense? How do you react? (not thoughts please, but NOW experiences!)

6. Secondly, In this same feeling I find this part of what you wrote really interesting and exciting:-

"To feel" refers to a strange new sensation: it is more a bell ringing and telling me "pay attention here because this is important". It is not rational, nor logical. I accepted the new definition of liberation because it rung a bell inside, not because it was intellectually interesting or logical (it is far from being logical if compared to my knowledge). A synonim could be "faith with goosebumps". I never believed my feelings before (rational reasoning has been my guide for more than 35 years) and perhaps this why I "feel" them so strongly now, perhaps because I am experiencing them for the first time."

A sense of 'Life invading Alex' here..., a hint of losing control, perhaps?

So I end this post, by repeating what I said at the beginning of the last one. Please take note: "Please take time to consider each question deeply in your NOW experience, before responding. (The mind will be of little help)."

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:42 am

Oops, sorry, I just realised that there is no number 4. You can take a short break at this point!

M
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:56 am

Mark, thank you very much. I could grasp very well what you expect from me.
Your last email means a lot to me.

I felt a kind of compulsion to take out what has been inside for so long that I really didn't need any time to jet it down. But it is definitely "brainy". Now the "brain stuff" is out I will take the time it needs to go deeper.

A note: weekends are little nightmares in my family. So much to do and so little time. Kids and wife need attention :-) Sometimes I don't even have time to turn the PC on.
I'll do my best to confirm my daily effort but if you don't hear from me on weekends, I'll write you on Mondays for sure.

Nice day!
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:56 pm

Mark,
I need a clarification about your point 5:
Is it possible, Alex, that although you thought you were hunting 'The Truth', in reality could it be that the Truth is hunting 'you'? Tenaciously pulling.
I don't understand what you mean.

A post scriptum:
I read your post once and I noted that "something" in me was just searching for the points where you agreed/disagreed with me, feeling accordingly better ("He sees that I'm so advanced!")/worse ("Shit, He didn't understand because I forgot to explain that..."). Questions have been just overlooked with some internal comments such as "This is easy, this..."
Then I printed it and re-reading your post again, slowly, something in my body reacted hard: my whole skin was kind of "shrinking", there was a desire to cry without a reason, there were "ants" walking on the skin and a "swollen" head. Every question mark rings a bell...

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ElPortal
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:27 pm

Hi Alex,

Great to hear back from you so soon, and so honestly. Thanks.

Ok the point 5. refers to what you wrote in your first main post on 20.3.14
Mark: This is not a self improvement program.
Alex: Agreed. I see this as something I simply cannot avoid doing.
I don't do it to grow but because I don't really have any other choice.
You felt that you could not avoid doing this journey, let's call it "Alex's pursuit of truth". What I am asking you to consider is whether you have any feeling that it is like the other way around: that Truth is pursuing you!? (If this is true it really is beyond 'Alex's control, maybe a little bit scary at times too?).

Now please re-read what I wrote before in 5. and then before that in 8. and let me know whether they are clearer.

What is being suggested here is that maybe something is going on that is beyond 'Alex's own efforts.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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nemecsek
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:46 pm

Very clear now, thank you.
I will let it settle and see what comes out.
Have a nice evening.
Alex

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nemecsek
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:28 pm

Hi Mark.
This is a quick summary of my findings today. Even if my job as a father/husband gave me not so much free time I read your last post some times to let it work in background.
Your questions are tough.
2. 'I would like to feel life living through me'.
This is evidently absurd. Life is ALWAYS expressing itself through me. There is not a single moment when it isn't.

I understood some faulty assumptions I made in the past.
For example for years I mixed up "life" and "presence", assuming that I'm truly alive only when I'm present here and now. I also assumed that I'm present only when there is the "observer".

The quality of "presence" can be very different from moment to moment, and the "observer" looks to be "awake" or most of the time "asleep".
But what it means that the observer is awake? I assumed my life could be split clearly in two parts: the bigger part where habits control everything and I forget to be alive; the smaller slice when the observer is awake.
I assumed that only the latter is valuable and the former has to be avoided as much as possible.

But even when the observer is "awake" (and I'm "present") there is something wrong in it, something I never noted before. It is not another state.
It looks like that when I'm "present" I'm just sensing reality in a stronger way and my senses are more reactive: all colors are more vivid, the eyes field of vision is wider, body sensations are stronger. I feel now it is just a "change of volume" of sensations, not a whole new state from "normal" asleep life. It is so difficult to express it.
I could say that there is not a real difference between being asleep or awake, between the automatic life of habits and being present with the observer doing his job. I'm not "either living or not living": it is more like "I feel more or less" what's going on in me. It is a change in volume, not in state.
The quest to be in "observer mode" has lost most of its appeal.

I reread it, the idea is there but the form is ineffective. I will try a best shot next time.
Good night
Thank you, Alex.

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ElPortal
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:10 am

Hi Alex,

Thanks for that (I only just received the notification of the post - not sure why!).

A really good start. I look forward to reading the rest when you have time.

Don't forget: drop the need to understand it all, but concentrate on the actual sensing of what seems to be going on, like a little child. As I wrote to you, "Take time, consider, listen deeply to what is coming up in your sensory experience, and then report. Thinking takes us away, sensing brings us home."

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.


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