Looking for someone to guide me, please !

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Jadoo
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Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:45 pm

hi,

Ive been inquiring into the self for around 15 years, and am looking for someone to guide me please.

Will be very greatful for any help I can get!

Thanks in advance :)

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:52 pm

Hi Jadoo!

Welcome to LU!
My name is Fred, and I am ready to help you if you would like.
Ive been inquiring into the self for around 15 years
During these 15 years, have you found anything resembling a "self", what do you think it would look like?

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:37 pm

Dear Fred,

Thank you very much I would like you to help me.

I havent found a "self" when I look for it, only thoughts, sensations and a body.

Still the identification is still subtly there, even if it comes and goes and I see it is only there when I think about it.

I think a self may look like an experiencer, but on looking there is only experience. Yet I am not free of suffering.

Thanks again for agreeing to help me its very much appreciated :)

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:51 pm

Hi Jadoo (is this what you would like me to call you?)
Glad you're here.
First of all, I would like to set out a few rules and as soon as you agree to these, we"ll start.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say 'still here'.

2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to
.
3. Responses require your total honesty. 

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical, philosophical answers and second-hand teachings are best avoided and may even slow us down.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is, now.
If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:54 pm

Yes you may call me Jadoo !

Thanks Im glad to be here too!

I agree to the rules and look forward to starting.

With much love and gratitude,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:00 pm

Great!

Can we start by looking at your expectations about this exchange?
You say that you are not free of suffering? Are you seeking to end this suffering?
What are your expectations for this process?
Will it change you? How will this feel?
Take your time, and be as detailed as you like.

Fred

PS It would help to know which time zone you find yourself in, to know roughly when to expect a post from you. I am in France (GMT+1)
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:32 pm

Great thanks !

I expect that this exchange may help to reveal certain misunderstandings that may be prevalent which cause me to be in a particular way.
You say that you are not free of suffering? Are you seeking to end this suffering?
I have heard elsewhere that If there is suffering then that is the proof that they are not 'fully enlightened' yet (using these words as lack of any other suitable words).

Yes in a way I am seeking to end the suffering, to end the anxiety of what will happen tomorrow and to remove the feeling of inadequacy that say I am not good enough.

I feel that the process may enable me to have a dropping away permanently of the 'I'dentification which is on and off there.

I dont know if it will change 'me', so far the me is just thoughts and when there is suffering it seems more solid and real (and I feel I am me ) than when things are better. Much of the time there is the feeling ' things should not be like this, they should be different. If this works it may feel that like the 'shoulds' dissolve naturally...I hope Im making sense :)

With warm regards,

Jadoo

(Im in Time Zone GMT + 5.30 India)

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:27 pm

Hi Jadoo,
I have heard elsewhere that If there is suffering then that is the proof that they are not 'fully enlightened' yet
Whoever gave you that idea? That is all it is, an idea. The end of suffering is not what is on offer here, any more than the end of bad weather, forever. Life will do whatever it does. In your experience, have you ever been able to stand apart from it and decide which direction it takes? what "should" or "should not be"?
Can you drop all expectations and accept that life, what IS, will contain ups and downs, highs and lows, hot and cold, left and right?

Consider this carefully and let me know what comes up.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:10 pm

Hi Fred !

Yes its true what you have mentioned . In my experience I have
never been able to stand apart from it and decide what direction
it takes. I have not ever been able to stand apart and decide
what should or should not be, as I am part of life itself.

Intellectually, I understand that all IS and that suffering
exists and its only that I there is no sufferer and that
life unfolds of itself.

There is a noticing but no noticer,
because there is is only one 'noticed' and no one seperate to
notice it, and its all life.

Still something seems to keep me from fully believing what I say
here.

It seems possible to drop expectations but the mind seems to go
in a loop...


Please feel free to be as gentle or firm as you need to be in
order for 'me' to 'get' the message.

With warm wishes and regards,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:04 pm

Hi Jadoo
Still something seems to keep me from fully believing what I say
here
Yes there is a difference between concepts that have been learned and things that have actually been seen.

OK let's start with some exercises.

Please could you tell me what comes up when it is read that there is no “Jadoo” at all in reality, not in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “Jadoo”, nor is there, nor will be there ever be? There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called "Jadoo".

I recommend that you get yourself a notebook for this. Take your time with it, contemplate it, and write down what sensations are felt, if any. Remember that what we are looking for here is not concepts, nor 'the right thing to say', but what is REAL in your most immediate, intimate experience.

Warm wishes

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:24 am

Hi Fred,

Last night when I read your reply that there is no Jadoo...there was a feeling of blank space, and blank sensation. Then again there arose some doubts doubts.....That I am doing this so that
I can escape my responsibilities.

On further contemplation .....the feeling is some kind of release.....some kind of feeling that it has always been like this. I am typing and it looks like a witnessing but there is no witness.

Without Jadoo also the world moves on. The I is being seen as a thought. A thought cant think, or do anything. Some easing is taking place. The things mentioned in the LU videos, seem to be so common sense and simple.

When objects are seen...there is no reason why I should call myself as this body mind and differentiate from any other object that is present.

What is 'done' next ? Is this a temporary phase?

With warm regards and much appreciation,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:08 am

Hi Jadoo,

1)
Without Jadoo also the world moves on
What does life look like without Jadoo? Notice any difference? Can you observe and describe what comes up there?

2)
there is no reason why I should call myself as this body mind and differentiate from any other object that is present.
What is a "body mind", in your experience? And what is another "object"? Remember, no teaching material here, describe as plainly as you can.

3) When you say "I", can you describe what this "I" points to, in direct experience, here and now? Please be as detailed as you can, does this "I" have a shape, a size, a colour, a quality?

So that's three questions to contemplate. Take your time with this. No rush, and remember there are no right or wrong answers here.

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:38 pm

Dear Fred,

Life with Jadoo, initially was looking peaceful there was less resistance and looking like somewhat different. Now in some time it looks like Jadoo has kicked back in and when I don't contemplate on anything, everything looks like how it used to be with all it's doubts and fears.

"Body mind, in my experience, is this body which I see and the thoughts and sounds and sensations which arise. The objects are other sights, and things which arise like furniture, trees, cars, and the world in general.

In direct experience the I points to thoughts which say I, sensations which seem to happen within the body, and seem to circle or arise around a central I. The I has no shape, size, or colour. The quality of I seems to be that of a thought, and a regularly appearing thought. When analysed it seems like it doesn't make sense, but it seems to appear nevertheless.

If I am too brief in the answers please do let me know, or if i need to contemplate more. When i do get so many different answers seems to be intellectual and circle around direct experience instead of being in it directly. so as to speak.

With much gratitude,
Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:26 pm

Hi Jadoo,
Body mind, in my experience, is this body which I see and the thoughts and sounds and sensations which arise. The objects are other sights, and things which arise like furniture, trees, cars, and the world in general.
Nice clear answers. That's great looking into Direct Experience. Just what we're looking for here.

There is just a doubt over your first reply:
Life with Jadoo, initially was looking peaceful and like somewhat different
Did you mean "life with Jadoo" or "life without Jadoo". If it is the latter, can you describe this "somewhat different"?
The quality of I seems to be that of a thought, and a regularly appearing thought
OK so if "I" is inviting itself in the content of thoughts, as the "doer" (so to speak) of the action within the thought, like "Jadoo is going to make some tea" or "Jadoo should not speak like this", what happens to Jadoo in between thoughts? Is it always the same "Jadoo"? Observe this Jadoo character that pops in and out and see what happens, then describe as plainly as you can.
Consider this: when you go into deep sleep at night, where does Jadoo go? Is he switched off?

Let's look some more and see if we can find this "I". Could it be the experiencer?
Look at whatever happens to be in front of you, the computer screen, or a tree, or anything else. Where is 'you' (the observer), where is the 'looking' (the observing) and where is the 'thing looked at' (the observed)?
Can you draw lines between these three? Say you're observing a tree, can you draw a line that separates the observer and the observed? Is it the outline of the tree? Is it your skin? Is the air between both 'observer' or 'observed'? Is your body 'observed' or 'observer'?

Don't worry about being too brief, Jadoo, I prefer that than a lot of mental waffle. That would only get in our way.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:29 pm

Hi Fred !

Sorry I meant life without Jadoo. 'Somewhat different' means there seem to arise less thoughts about the future or even past, and there seems to be less planning going on. (Though its not like there is a voice or thought 'no Jadoo no Jadoo' screaming). If I think about it, the body and arising called Jadoo is there but somewhat like how all things arise. I seem to be the same person, but I seem to be not thinking too much about it.

In between thoughts the Jadoo character is not there. Even when the thoughts are not about Jadoo they are not there. I dont think it is the same Jadoo which appears, as the older one has dissapeared, a new one appears. The following happens at the 'time' Jadoo 'appears' – there is a feeling of being present and there is a feeling that this presence is being labelled as Jadoo (but increasingly its more like a label and is not all that bad most of the time). In deep sleep no thoughts arise and only on waking up the entire story seems to be being rebuilt.

In direct experience there is no observer. There is no observing. 
There is only the observed. The concept of observer seems to arise only if we assume any 'I' inside.

A tree appears and no line can be drawn that separates the observer and the observed. The line is only a concept. 

What appears in direct experience is only the observed, and there is no experience of the observer or the observing. These are assumed (if at all, by thoughts).

– - -
Q : It seems easy to understand no doer, no observer, but in case of suffering it seems difficult to see that there is no sufferer, is that odd?

I added this question above – if its not normal practice to ask a question then please let me know so I will in refrain in future :) :)

Your help is deeply appreciated and helpful,

Jadoo.


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