Guidance

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Radu
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Guidance

Postby Radu » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:29 pm

Hello,

My name is Radu and I would like to ask for guidance.
For the past years I've been on the passenger side of my gf's journey and realized that without knowing I've embarked on it myself.

If I could pick the most influential element regarding my journey then I would choose McKenna's books. They helped me cut through a lot of conditioning that I've accumulated from as far back as I can remember to what I can describe as some sort of infant maturity in which I got accustomed to a new world made of books such as "Conversations with God", "The power of now" , "Perfect Brilliant Stillness" and things like channelers etc. Doing spiritual autolysis I managed to get in touch with something that I felt having since I was growing up, but was shutdown at some point. I think that McKenna referred to it as an "inner bastarad", or something like that.
The spiritual autolysis process was really tiresome for me as I balanced work during the day and writing in the evening and I did felt a couple of times that I was going insane, but at some point I realized that I was writing just to write, just to give myself a sense of purpose and direction and stopped. After this came a period of relative calm (2 months until mid December 2013) when "worldly" things were in focus. Whenever I had time, or caught a brake at work I did something that McKenna suggested - death awareness, and started listening to a sound meditation - https://soundcloud.com/troydsmith22/aethos30min. Things came back into focus again when during a night I had an experience which is really hard for me describe, but looking back at it, seems to be in the general lines of what everybody describes in their books as no-self. Now however, I got Radu back full time and he goes about his business as usual.

Asking for guidance is to me the first time I've tried to get in touch with anybody else besides talking to my gf about it, but at this point this is what I consider to be the next step towards... I don't know what.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:39 pm

Hi Radu
My name is Sarah and I would be happy to guide you. What would you like me to call you?

Can you tell me how you came to be here? Have you looked around the site? Do you now what we do here?

Can you tell me what you expect from this process?
Now however, I got Radu back full time and he goes about his business as usual.
What does this mean please? Could you expand a little more?
Look forward to working with you. Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Radu
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Re: Guidance

Postby Radu » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:13 pm

Hi Sarah,

Thank you for your replying and for your time.
What would you like me to call you?
radu is fine
Can you tell me how you came to be here? Have you looked around the site? Do you now what we do here?
My gf told me about it. I read some posts in the guidance area and saw the discussion that elena and ilona had with the guy that makes the videos from budha at the gas pump. And to continue answering on point, as far as your mission goes, the first thing that came to mind was that you help people to break free from the delusion of ego.
Can you tell me what you expect from this process?
I honestly can't say that I have and end goal in mind, as I can't imagine what the successful end of this process might look, mean or bring.
That being said I do have some expectations regarding this. In my mind I see you as having some sort of a birds eye view and me on the ground, deep in a jungle, cutting branch after branch, but without an overall direction. I want to use you in order to get that direction.
What does this mean please? Could you expand a little more?
radu full time meaning the sum of all things that make up me. The he entrenched beliefs, that govern me for the most of the day, that i can identify - who knows how many go undetected; the me that then sees the entrenched beliefs. All the fears that take over, preconditions and assumptions that i feel make up my life. I feel that I will start ranting if I go on now :).

My perspective at the moment is that regardless of what lies "beyond the gate" and whether or not at the end of our discussions I "will be beyond it", the current state of being/mind or whatever that I am in is unacceptable. I do not want to ride the roller coaster of life as it is being portrayed in every direction that I look, and also I do not want to end up settling for a different set of beliefs that will then shape my life, no matter how uplifting or inspirational.

Sarah, thank you again for your time.

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Sarah7
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Re: Guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:16 pm

Hi Radu
Where in the world are you Radu? Im in England and usually post around 5 or 6 p.m. after work.

There are a few formalities to take care of. If you haven't already, please read the Disclaimer and watch the short video on the LU home page.
There are also a few standard ground rules before we start. Please confirm that you agree.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting. (If you can't respond fully on a given day, a few words to let me know you're still engaged would be appreciated.)

2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. (I'm here to guide, not to teach.)

3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honesty.

4. And when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"; look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. And if you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that. Please answer from your OWN experience. We use Direct Experience here – it is what is noticed, here and now. For the purposes of investigation De can be split in to 3 main aspects:
- Thought.
- Sensations – seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling (tactile and kinaesthetic).
- An unmistakable sense of aliveness (presence, being, Me-ness).
Please use this to answer questions.

Here are a couple of notes about posting in this forum.

1. Learn to use the quote function. There are instructions in this post.

2. The forum can log you out without warning. If you're typing a post directly in the edit box here, and you get logged out before you click Submit, your words can get lost. There are two ways to avoid this. One, use the Preview button frequently. That will keep you logged in. Or two, type your responses in a separate program like Notepad first, then copy and paste them into the forum. (But that way you don't get to use the quote function and have to use BBCode to highlight quotes.)

We can get started as soon as you confirm that you've seen all the above and agree to it.
the first thing that came to mind was that you help people to break free from the delusion of ego.
I will bring up any expectation I see to look at as we go along. Is there an expectation that the ego will go here?
I honestly can't say that I have and end goal in mind, as I can't imagine what the successful end of this process might look, mean or bring.
That being said I do have some expectations regarding this. In my mind I see you as having some sort of a birds eye view and me on the ground, deep in a jungle, cutting branch after branch, but without an overall direction. I want to use you in order to get that direction.
Nice analogy.
radu full time meaning the sum of all things that make up me. The he entrenched beliefs, that govern me for the most of the day, that i can identify - who knows how many go undetected; the me that then sees the entrenched beliefs. All the fears that take over, preconditions and assumptions that i feel make up my life.
How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be at present then? You have from above entrenched beliefs, both seen and unseen, preconditioned assumptions, fear, what else…..?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?
My perspective at the moment is that regardless of what lies "beyond the gate" and whether or not at the end of our discussions I "will be beyond it", the current state of being/mind or whatever that I am in is unacceptable. I do not want to ride the roller coaster of life as it is being portrayed in every direction that I look, and also I do not want to end up settling for a different set of beliefs that will then shape my life, no matter how uplifting or inspirational.
Is there an expectation then that life will be better? That you are not enough? That you are somehow not complete?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

Looking forward to working with you Radu.
Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Radu
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Re: Guidance

Postby Radu » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:05 am

Hi Sarah,
I live in Romania - there is a 2h offset between us.
I will probably write the answers to your questions in the evening, but if i catch a window at work i will definitely use that as well.

I saw the video, read the disclaimer and agree to the terms.
Is there an expectation that the ego will go here?
I don't fully understand the question. Not sure what "will go here" refers to.
How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be at present then? You have from above entrenched beliefs, both seen and unseen, preconditioned assumptions, fear, what else…..?
I honestly do not know, I just can't put my finger on it. I had a train of thought, in which I conceive the self to be some sort of complex pattern that needs constant reinforcement from thoughts in order to exist, but that is not what I directly experience at the moment.
I see the self as a concept in future projections of myself in various circumstances; I see the self in past decisions, but it seems to me that it only exists in thoughts. Right now I see the self being defined based on conditioning as I try to answer your question. Right now I see the self to only exist because my mind made it a prerequisite in answering the question. It is a matter of how much I believe to be true: fears, assumptions and beliefs, everything...
Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?
Looking at the flow of experiencing I felt an intense surge of energy that rushed throughout my body. Self only appeared when I began to think about it.
Is there an expectation then that life will be better?
I don't see it like that. Besides some mental images that I picked along the way, I don't have any way of knowing what life might be. I'm sure that it can be a playful companion or it can turn around and kick me in the stomach just as well.
Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?
What exists at any given moment? I would say that anything goes, but it comes down to what I perceive. I wouldn't go so far as to state that only what I perceive (thoughts, feelings, sensations) exists (though I do find value in this idea and makes sense to me), it isn't my living, day to day, moment to moment reality. It makes sense to me that everything thought to have happened in the past or that is going to happen in the future is actually being registered in the present moment. But what does this imply? I will think about this more and if something coherent comes up that I can write I'll create a new post or add it in the next reply.

I look forward to working with you too, Sarah :)
All the best

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Sarah7
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Re: Guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:40 pm

Hi Radu
Is there an expectation that the ego will go here?
Please, as you have, ask if there is anything you don’t understand and I will do the same. The question means is there an expectation that the ego will disappear upon investigation with me. OK?
I honestly do not know, I just can't put my finger on it. I had a train of thought, in which I conceive the self to be some sort of complex pattern that needs constant reinforcement from thoughts in order to exist, but that is not what I directly experience at the moment.
I see the self as a concept in future projections of myself in various circumstances; I see the self in past decisions, but it seems to me that it only exists in thoughts. Right now I see the self being defined based on conditioning as I try to answer your question. Right now I see the self to only exist because my mind made it a prerequisite in answering the question. It is a matter of how much I believe to be true: fears, assumptions and beliefs, everything...
OK so to kind of sum up – ‘YOU’ ‘I’ refers to thoughts (future, past, conceptual, decisions, assumptions, beliefs etc) and emotions. Would that be about right as you see it at present?
Looking at the flow of experiencing I felt an intense surge of energy that rushed throughout my body. Self only appeared when I began to think about it.
Lovely! Do you consider the body and sensation to be ‘you’ ‘I’ also?
It makes sense to me that everything thought to have happened in the past or that is going to happen in the future is actually being registered in the present moment. But what does this imply? I will think about this more and if something coherent comes up that I can write I'll create a new post or add it in the next reply.
No thinking!!!!! Looking only! In your direct experience can anything exist outside the present moment? Sit with and look.

OK. Id like you to just sit for 10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?
Much love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Radu
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Re: Guidance

Postby Radu » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:13 pm

Hi,
The question means is there an expectation that the ego will disappear upon investigation with me.
No, there isn't.
OK so to kind of sum up – ‘YOU’ ‘I’ refers to thoughts (future, past, conceptual, decisions, assumptions, beliefs etc) and emotions. Would that be about right as you see it at present?
And more...sensations are in the mix as well...though I feel that there is something underneath them all. It is some sort of energy pattern, something that registers everything. It seems to be always changing on the surface, but what i feel it does constantly is to personalise and take ownership of everything....
Do you consider the body and sensation to be ‘you’ ‘I’ also?
... including the body and the sensations felt. But when I sit and look now, the energy pattern that I was describing seems to have no texture, I mean as the idea kept building up while I was writing those things to you, that energy started building up as well, but when I took a minute to sit and look at it now I see that it has dissipated. There is nothing there, it is as if it is a story that I choose not to belief or just don’t have the energy to entertain. I don’t know if it makes much sense to you, it hardly does for me. I feel a part of my mind not being comfortable with this, wanting to write to you something about how the ‘I’/’self’ relates to <insert whatever here regarding thoughts, emotions, sensations>, but every time I catch a train of thought I see that it is empty….I mean it does have content, I see that there are different mix-ins of ideas, but they just don’t make any sense..they seem empty of meaning.
In your direct experience can anything exist outside the present moment?
Sitting, looking, not thinking - just the present moment.
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?
They both felt almost the same. There was nothing truth related, they both had the same quality in state of being.

First one: I'm sitting on a chair. I feel a light headache, I hear a high pitch sound in my head. I think about the origin of that sound. I feel a tightening sensation in my stomach. I think what would be like if I was blind. I think about death. I feel a panicking sensation.

Second one: Curiosity about this process. Hearing a high pitch sound. Wondering about its origin. Relaxation in the abdomen. Thought about my capacity of doing this process. Louder high pitch. Relaxation in arms and legs. Thought about your question regarding the present moment. Hearing gf talk on the phone. Thought about a future event. Chest relaxing.

radu

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Re: Guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:47 pm

Hi Radu
There is nothing there, it is as if it is a story that I choose not to belief or just don’t have the energy to entertain. I don’t know if it makes much sense to you, it hardly does for me. I feel a part of my mind not being comfortable with this, wanting to write to you something about how the ‘I’/’self’ relates to <insert whatever here regarding thoughts, emotions, sensations>, but every time I catch a train of thought I see that it is empty….I mean it does have content, I see that there are different mix-ins of ideas, but they just don’t make any sense..they seem empty of meaning.
Fabulous looking. Making
They both felt almost the same. There was nothing truth related, they both had the same quality in state of being.
In the first one is it experienced that there is a doer of each of these things? I am sitting on a chair – or is it just a case of labels describing, thoughts describing, labels trying to own something that cant be owned e.g. I feel a light headache, rather than a sensation of a light headache. Is the headache owned? Does it belong to ‘you’ like the label implies, or is it just experienced?

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? Is the mind a labelling machine? When does it label – before, during or after?

Can you look without labeling?

Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Radu
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Re: Guidance

Postby Radu » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:55 pm

Hi Sarah
In the first one is it experienced that there is a doer of each of these things? I am sitting on a chair – or is it just a case of labels describing, thoughts describing, labels trying to own something that cant be owned e.g. I feel a light headache, rather than a sensation of a light headache. Is the headache owned? Does it belong to ‘you’ like the label implies, or is it just experienced?
I see a lamp - I’ve looked for a while at this. I then started to write to you and every time that I began developing an idea your words came in to mind ("No thinking!!!!! Looking only!”). The direct experience is that at first it just lamp, with no clear mental distinction, then comes some sort of focusing on that particular object, them comes the labelling and then it is included in the global process of I. I see a lamp then becomes a mental shortcut that follows a more general flow of energy. So, “is the headache owned?” - no it isn’t, it is registered/experienced, but a headache can become a mental shortcut serving the general flow of energy.
Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? Is the mind a labelling machine? When does it label – before, during or after?
It happens often and it is applied to almost everything. For me it is not ownership (this was something that was hard for me to understand in the first quoted paragraph when I was trying to fully grasp your questions and examples), but it feels more like commentary, though not 100%.
Labelling happens almost instantaneously after trying to give meaning to something. More specifically, I was driving and was looking at a nice formation of clouds. Looking back at it, at first it was as if the focus, the attention went directly at them; there were clouds, just clouds. The second that a thought that looked for meaning appeared, labelling occurred, reaffirmation of the sense of the self (felt like an emergence of energy in the body) happened and the cloud was identified, triggering afterwards a routine of thoughts and sensations.
Can you look without labelling?
I don’t know. My first thought was that this can be learned and practiced, but to what end?
Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car’.
Yes! funny thing this one. It is as if a root thought hijacks something (like a body-mind specialisation), independent from it, and makes it his.

radu

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Sarah7
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Re: Guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:40 pm

Hi Radu
It happens often and it is applied to almost everything. For me it is not ownership (this was something that was hard for me to understand in the first quoted paragraph when I was trying to fully grasp your questions and examples), but it feels more like commentary, though not 100%.
Labelling happens almost instantaneously after trying to give meaning to something. More specifically, I was driving and was looking at a nice formation of clouds. Looking back at it, at first it was as if the focus, the attention went directly at them; there were clouds, just clouds. The second that a thought that looked for meaning appeared, labelling occurred, reaffirmation of the sense of the self (felt like an emergence of energy in the body) happened and the cloud was identified, triggering afterwards a routine of thoughts and sensations.
Sit quietly and watch the thoughts as they arise and pass.
For this one, report only on the direct experience of noticing each thought, not on the thought content (the words or pictures). (We'll look at thought content in a moment.) Can you discern a point of origin for a thought? A place where thoughts come from? How do you create a thought? Can you discern a point of destination for a thought? A place where thoughts go to? Or do they just arise and pass? Thoughts arise ... do they just arise, or does 'I' make them happen?

Can a thought think?

Can you stop the thinking? If there is manager inside me I should be able to stop thought.

Now begin to notice the thought content, the words. There may be an inner sound that resembles your speaking voice. Let me know. Do most of these commentary thoughts refer to you? Do they tend to contain the words "I," "me," "my"? Look closely. Notice. Do they contain these words? We're just noticing the content as the thoughts arise and pass. List a few of the "I" thoughts that you notice. Now try this. Look at the computer. Is it more accurate to think "That's my computer"? Or is it more accurate to think "That's a computer"? Why? How does the idea "my computer" arise? Could a self somehow be attached to a computer? How would that work? In other words, what does the thought "That's my computer" actually mean?

Keep looking at content and see how many thoughts refer to labelling. You say earlier that labelling doesn’t mean ownership. Check for this please. Language can be habit but mixed with ‘I’, ‘me’ ‘mine’ etc ownership can occur very easily. Have a good look. How many thoughts apply to past or habit and how many to future. Give me a rough percentage of what you notice.
Much Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Radu
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Re: Guidance

Postby Radu » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:59 pm

Hi Sarah,
Can you discern a point of origin for a thought? A place where thoughts come from? Can you discern a point of destination for a thought? A place where thoughts go to? How do you create a thought? Or do they just arise and pass? Thoughts arise ... do they just arise, or does 'I' make them happen?
Thoughts come. Thoughts go. It seems to me that there is no point of origin of thought, no actual destination.
I followed as best as I could the way that thoughts come to be in my mind and what I felt was that packets of information are downloaded or something and then thoughts come to be. The reason that I emphasized downloaded was that, the term implies to me that it needs to have a delimiting point when it finished and then that package would start to be processed, however I am unable to identify such point in time. While writing this, another thing came to mind: it is more of information being streamed rather than downloaded.
It is not 'I' that makes the thoughts, at least this is the way I see it.
Can a thought think?
I don't see it like this. A thinking thought is to me another thought, it has the same texture as all the rest.
Can you stop the thinking?
From my point of view I don't see it happening. Maybe there are times when thinking is not so intense, maybe there are times when thinking is occupying every ounce of attention, but I just can't see how one would go about stopping the thinking process.
Now begin to notice the thought content, the words. There may be an inner sound that resembles your speaking voice. Let me know.
Yes, the thing that reassembles my voice is there.
Do most of these commentary thoughts refer to you? Do they tend to contain the words "I," "me," "my"? Look closely. Notice. Do they contain these words? We're just noticing the content as the thoughts arise and pass.
From what I saw, most of the thoughts refer to me. 'I', 'me', doesn't have to be explicitly present in a thought, there is more of the sense of how do 'I' position myself relative to the thought content. For example, lets take my job (heavy problem solving) - one would think that it doesn't encourage the presence of 'I' that much. Yet, there is still a strong sense of me that is backing up the thought process: "How can I do this...", "How can I do that...", "I'm bored of these things", "How do i position myself relative to this topic" etc. And I feel that there is more than thoughts at work here; there is a whole plethora of emotions and sensations that accompany the thoughts while positioning 'me' relative to something.
"That's my computer"? Or is it more accurate to think "That's a computer"?
The later makes much more sense, but I would be lying to you if I said that the idea of "my x" are not present.
Why? How does the idea "my computer" arise?
Could a self somehow be attached to a computer? How would that work? In other words, what does the thought "That's my computer" actually mean?
Necessity for the self to survive. "My computer" validates 'me'. It reinforces the idea that 'I' do exist.
Keep looking at content and see how many thoughts refer to labelling. You say earlier that labelling doesn’t mean ownership. Check for this please. Language can be habit but mixed with ‘I’, ‘me’ ‘mine’ etc ownership can occur very easily.
The sense of self spreads in the elements that form your daily reality (i.e my girlfriend, my job, my vacation, my ideas about myself). These are pillars for the sense of self. In these I see labeling, I don't see ownership. I also see elements of self reinforcement. What else is there without my girlfriend, my job, my ideas about myself?
How many thoughts apply to past or habit and how many to future. Give me a rough percentage of what you notice.
A lot..don't have an exact estimation, but I'd have to say that around in the 90+%.


radu

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Sarah7
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Re: Guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:03 pm

Hi Radu
Cant post Wednesday as have double shift at work, so heres a double dose to keep you going!
Thoughts come. Thoughts go. It seems to me that there is no point of origin of thought, no actual destination. I followed as best as I could the way that thoughts come to be in my mind and what I felt was that packets of information are downloaded or something and then thoughts come to be. The reason that I emphasized downloaded was that, the term implies to me that it needs to have a delimiting point when it finished and then that package would start to be processed, however I am unable to identify such point in time. While writing this, another thing came to mind: it is more of information being streamed rather than downloaded.
It is not 'I' that makes the thoughts, at least this is the way I see it.
So are thoughts ‘yours’ then? Is the content of thoughts ‘yours’? Do you own the emotions that come and go? Is a self necessary in order for the thought "I am crap" to arise? Is a self necessary in order for self-obsessive feelings to arise? (make relevant to the type of thoughts you notice).

Do you notice that in your daily experience? Do you see how the thoughts work? I do not want you to focus on the thoughts themselves just see them attach and extend. Story is one thought following another. Story is a thought following a sensation trying to explain it of link it to past or future. Story is thought based on habitual responses. Story explains, describes and labels everything. Some stories are useful. Look at you own thinking and thoughts to see this.
Take say 5 minutes and just observe the thinking that happens. Notice how much of it is based on the past. Notice how much is based on the future. Notice how much of it is based on the NOW. See how many are based on habit – e.g. usual thoughts, or usual responses to situations etc. I know you have looked at some of this already just keep looking.

When there is no thought, where are you?
Yes, the thing that reassembles my voice is there.

Is that a thought that says its ‘my’ voice?
From what I saw, most of the thoughts refer to me. 'I', 'me', doesn't have to be explicitly present in a thought, there is more of the sense of how do 'I' position myself relative to the thought content. For example, lets take my job (heavy problem solving) - one would think that it doesn't encourage the presence of 'I' that much. Yet, there is still a strong sense of me that is backing up the thought process: "How can I do this...", "How can I do that...", "I'm bored of these things", "How do i position myself relative to this topic" etc. And I feel that there is more than thoughts at work here; there is a whole plethora of emotions and sensations that accompany the thoughts while positioning 'me' relative to something.
Some lovely looking here Radu - Is that strong sense of self there then when labelling doesn’t happen – you may not catch that particular seeing straight away – stay with it.
Necessity for the self to survive. "My computer" validates 'me'. It reinforces the idea that 'I' do exist.
YES!!!!! Labels one their own validate or thoughts and labels validate? Or is it just thoughts? Look and check.
The sense of self spreads in the elements that form your daily reality (i.e my girlfriend, my job, my vacation, my ideas about myself). These are pillars for the sense of self. In these I see labeling, I don't see ownership. I also see elements of self reinforcement. What else is there without my girlfriend, my job, my ideas about myself?
Which of these ‘my’s would evoke the most emotion and create story if not ‘yours’ anymore? Can thoughts create the idea of ownership – adding stories – adding more thoughts to, as you saw, validate another thought – YOU? Look.
Much Love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Radu
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Re: Guidance

Postby Radu » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:34 pm

Hi Sarah,

I took the time and looked, I stayed with the you questions up until "Is that a thought that says its ‘my’ voice?".

The answers were clear to me yesterday and part of today, they are not anymore at this moment. The answers that come now come from mind, from thoughts, from previous experiences. I sense that at the moment I'm engulfed in a story. While I see it for the story that it is, it is occupying me at the moment.
That's why I decided to postpone answering them, until I can answer them from direct experience.

I would like to try to best describe what these days were like for me, don't know if its relevant or not for the process, but I want to be as honest and open as I can be with you.
Here goes...Last night I didn't sleep that much; I was struck by your question "When there is no thought, where are you?". The energy in my body went into overdrive, thoughts came one after the other and seen through as just thoughts. I felt what I can describe as an intense aliveness, there was no me, there was just aliveness. As time passed a dis-identification from the body occurred as well, there was some sort of space in which everything happened...and that's the last thing I remember before falling asleep. Today was a pretty busy day at work, had a lot of things to think about and decide, yet I felt, at the same time, some sort of emptiness inside. 'I' appeared only when a thought appeared. As I sat at the computer I felt something click inside and by the time I figured out that an old pattern emerged, it had already taken over me(body and mind). 50 min later I wrote what you just have read.

radu

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Sarah7
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Location: England

Re: Guidance

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:20 pm

Hi Radu
Lovely reading.
That's why I decided to postpone answering them, until I can answer them from direct experience.
What isn’t being experienced by your direct experience? Look. Arent you just experiencing something different here? Go back to permanence. What is permanent in your experience apart from awareness?
Here goes...Last night I didn't sleep that much; I was struck by your question "When there is no thought, where are you?". The energy in my body went into overdrive, thoughts came one after the other and seen through as just thoughts. I felt what I can describe as an intense aliveness, there was no me, there was just aliveness. As time passed a dis-identification from the body occurred as well, there was some sort of space in which everything happened...and that's the last thing I remember before falling asleep. Today was a pretty busy day at work, had a lot of things to think about and decide, yet I felt, at the same time, some sort of emptiness inside. 'I' appeared only when a thought appeared. As I sat at the computer I felt something click inside and by the time I figured out that an old pattern emerged, it had already taken over me(body and mind). 50 min later I wrote what you just have read.
Firstly – do you feel a shift has been experienced?

Second - is there an expectation that a shift – any shift would be permanent? Would this be a belief? What would want a nice tidy finish to the days activities? What wants an explanation for everything? What wants things wrapped up and done with?
Much love Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Radu
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Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:29 pm

Re: Guidance

Postby Radu » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:52 pm

Hi again,
What isn’t being experienced by your direct experience? Look. Arent you just experiencing something different here? Go back to permanence. What is permanent in your experience apart from awareness?
Nothing, nothing is outside present direct experience. Thoughts, labels and stories say otherwise. Nothing is permanent except awareness. - this is how I see it now. The first question that you asked cut through what was experienced when writing the previous post. Right now, energy flow through the body is intensified, thoughts don't stick.
Firstly – do you feel a shift has been experienced?
Not sure I fully understand the question. What do you mean when you say shift? I tried making some comparisons between samples of experience from the past days that I remember - they all seem like dreams - what I can say that I noticed is that labeling relaxed. There was no conscious effort in not labeling, it is as if I didn't fuel stories.
Second - is there an expectation that a shift – any shift would be permanent? Would this be a belief? What would want a nice tidy finish to the days activities? What wants an explanation for everything? What wants things wrapped up and done with?
The 'me' story would like the explanation for everything, would like to finish this so as to get on with "the real things" in life.
For the first part - yes, I mean there was, something lurking in my mind, that got aggravated when I sat at the computer to write to you the first time; that is the old pattern that emerged. It is the belief, it is the sum of everything that the self thinks it will acquire if a certain change will happen during or after this process. When looking at it, it fades, it makes no sense, but I feel it somewhat deeply routed. It is some sort of energy pattern that has momentum to it. Right now I look at it, I feel it overwhelming the mind and body with thoughts and emotions, yet somehow I don't believe it, and the whole thing passes.

radu


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