Ready to stop seeking

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Riawakening
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Ready to stop seeking

Postby Riawakening » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:35 pm

Hello, my name is Marin. Warm greetings.

I want to stop this painful seeking with your assistance.
Another problem is, that I don′t speak English very well, but can understand everything posted here (OK sometimes Google Translator is best friend).

So, my story is… I started enlightenment quest six years ago, a lots of advaita/nonduality books, many Youtube clips, web pages etc. I think my intellectual understanding is fine, but everyday living this knowing is not present yet. I can′t read any more about this stuff, a want to do another thing more joyful than seeking. Don′t know exactly, why am I seeking any more, but, just want to see Life as OK in a more peaceful way. Obviously, believing in thought story is main problem. I understand that but...

I would very much like to start a conversation with a guide.

Kind regards.

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Nettie
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Nettie » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:04 am

Dear Marin,
I will be happy to be your guide.

Here are a few ground rules,
1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
2. In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
3. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

This is an utterly intimate honest deep looking. Keep the focus on yourself.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?
You can press 'subscribe to this topic in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive an email every time I post here. Some report its easier to write their response somewhere else and then copy it to avoid time running out on the forum.

Nettie

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Riawakening
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Riawakening » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:43 pm

Dear Nettie,

Thanks for the response. I am happy with your guidance, and agree with all of the information from the previous post. I understand process rules.
What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?
During the seeking years I drop all expectations like: to be special, to have superpowers, to be saint and similar fantasies. Now, just want more peaceful life without constant battle with my environment. Thoughts like I deserve more from life triggers disturbing feelings, and that leads to physical problems in my body. I usually read this kind of materials before going to sleep, and then feel freedom, physical relaxation, thoughts calm down, and everything seems OK, but every morning old thought/emotional battle starts again, so that is very frustrating, like never ending process between seen/not seen. At the end of the process I expect to perceive bad and good things in more relaxed way without so much fears about future, and thinking about past events.
It seems that I have intellectual understanding (maybe too many concepts in my mind) but living experience or perspective is not changed much.
I have obstacles in expressing myself in English, but hope you understand what I want to say.

Thank you!

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Nettie
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Nettie » Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:10 pm

Dear Marin,
"During the seeking years I drop all expectations like: to be special, to have superpowers, to be saint and similar fantasies. Now, just want more peaceful life without constant battle with my environment. Thoughts like I deserve more from life triggers disturbing feelings, and that leads to physical problems in my body. I usually read this kind of materials before going to sleep, and then feel freedom, physical relaxation, thoughts calm down, and everything seems OK, but every morning old thought/emotional battle starts again, so that is very frustrating, like never ending process between seen/not seen. At the end of the process I expect to perceive bad and good things in more relaxed way without so much fears about future, and thinking about past events.
It seems that I have intellectual understanding (maybe too many concepts in my mind) but living experience or perspective is not changed much.
I have obstacles in expressing myself in English, but hope you understand what I want to say. "

Yes. ...now drop all expectations...everything you've ever heard or read.
When you say 'I' what are you referring to?

Now simply notice the nature of thought. Not what they are about...
Can you remember the thoughts you had yesterday?
Can you predict which thoughts you will have tomorrow?
Can you really say when one thought ends and another begins?
If you were the thinker of your thoughts you would probably have the kinds of thoughts you like...nice fluffy ones, right?
Are you the thinker of your thoughts?

Love,
Nettie

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Riawakening
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Riawakening » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:18 pm

Dear Nettie,

OK, No expectations any more!

Can not remember the thougts I had yesterday, only present thoughts about something happened yesterday.
I can not predict which thoughts I will have tomorrow, even I can not predict next thoughts. I can not say when one thought ends and another begins, because I can not stop stream of thoughts and inspect every part of that stream.
Hmm if I want to analize some thougts I do that again with another thougts so I do not have original thoughts any more to analyse. It seems to me that I can not even directly analize thoughts.
I definitely agree if i can choose thoughts I would probably have only positive thought despite circumstances. First of all I can not even stop thoughts, maybe only for a few seconds. I feel that I am thinker of my thoughts, but every time after some investigation I can see that that is not true, but feeling stays. I can say that a brain is a thinker or source of thinking, but how brain does that, is mystery for me, of course some external or internal inputs trigerrs thinking process in most cases, thats all I can say.

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Riawakening
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Riawakening » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:33 pm

When I say "I" what am I referring to ? Thats hard one !!!
I see myself as something that perceive everything, thoughts, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. Can not pinpoint exactly where am I, or what am I. I have persistent feeling that I am here or where ever this body is located. Hmm but during dreams I am only in dream world or absent. When you ask me that question in my body I can feel resistance and upsetting feelings. I am confused here, because that question, must be very easy to answer, but it is not.

Love,
Marin

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Nettie
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Nettie » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:46 pm

Dear Marin,

"OK, No expectations any more!"
Good

"Can not remember the thougts I had yesterday, only present thoughts about something happened yesterday.
I can not predict which thoughts I will have tomorrow, even I can not predict next thoughts. I can not say when one thought ends and another begins, because I can not stop stream of thoughts and inspect every part of that stream.
Hmm if I want to analize some thougts I do that again with another thougts so I do not have original thoughts any more to analyse. It seems to me that I can not even directly analize thoughts.
I definitely agree if i can choose thoughts I would probably have only positive thought despite circumstances. First of all I can not even stop thoughts, maybe only for a few seconds. I feel that I am thinker of my thoughts, but every time after some investigation I can see that that is not true, but feeling stays. I can say that a brain is a thinker or source of thinking, but how brain does that, is mystery for me, of course some external or internal inputs trigerrs thinking process in most cases, thats all I can say."
So you agree you are not the thinker?
Notice that the feeling that you are the thinker arises without you having to do anything. And if effortlessly recognized....and the objectifying mind spontaneously labels it as a feeling and what it is and perhaps labels it as good or bad.

Now look at what is really going on.
There is a seamless unstoppable timeless flow of what we call perceptions...
They arise spontaneously without you having to do anything. Ceaseless and unpredictable.
Can you control which perceptions arise?


And the objectifying mind further label them as thoughts sights feelings etc.
Can you tell when one perception ends and another begins?
Can you isolate perceptions?
Can you put two perceptions side by side and compare them?

Nettie

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Riawakening
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Riawakening » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:18 am

Happy New Year Nettie.

I am on vacation right now, and unfortunately my laptop doesn't work any more. I am now using tablet, so can't quote properly. Hope so tomorow I'll be again online with my laptop.

Yes, I am not the thinker. Yes, that feeling that I am the thinker is here without me in charge. I can't stop it, or produce that feeling, it just happens with mind's recognition as a thinker.
No I can't control which perceptions arise because I can't control circumstances around me and in which way my mind and body reacts to them. Now it seems like one flow.
Absolutely, my mind gives meanings to these perceptions, but that is so fast, so even is hard to say labeling. Mind does that automatical.
I can't found clear cut between perceptions, some occurs simultaneous. They switch so fast, so measuring them is for me impossible. Hmm but even measuring is another perception.
No, I can't isolate perceptions because they occurs simultaneously. Comparing perceptions seems impossible because they are not solid or static, they are in continual move. To compare them I must be able to grab them from whole experience, but that is also impossible.

Marin

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Nettie
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Nettie » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:17 pm

Dear Marin,

"I am on vacation right now, and unfortunately my laptop doesn't work any more. I am now using tablet, so can't quote properly. Hope so tomorow I'll be again online with my laptop."
That's ok I only use my phone so I quote like this.

"Yes, I am not the thinker. Yes, that feeling that I am the thinker is here without me in charge. I can't stop it, or produce that feeling, it just happens with mind's recognition as a thinker. "

What a relief when we recognize we are not the thinker! Ahhhh.....

"No I can't control which perceptions arise because I can't control circumstances around me and in which way my mind and body reacts to them. Now it seems like one flow.
Absolutely, my mind gives meanings to these perceptions, but that is so fast, so even is hard to say labeling. Mind does that automatical.
I can't found clear cut between perceptions, some occurs simultaneous. They switch so fast, so measuring them is for me impossible. Hmm but even measuring is another perception.
No, I can't isolate perceptions because they occurs simultaneously. Comparing perceptions seems impossible because they are not solid or static, they are in continual move. To compare them I must be able to grab them from whole experience, but that is also impossible."
Yes. Nice!
So it is a seamless unitary flow.
What about time?
Past is a label as is future. There is only....not even the now.
Yes?

So it is a seamless timeless unitary flow. Always on... Yet thoughts and words seem to divide this flow.
Thought which are made of words seem to split up´this unitary flow into separate bits.
Like when I say flower it seems to point to a separte thing called a flower.

And instantly there is the flower and everything that is not the flower....including a separate you.


does the word flower really convey the experience of the flower? If i say its yellow...there are infinite shades of color and light and shadows playing and the wind blows your cheek and there is the grass and your breath.....
Words are paltry poiinters
In fact all there is is a seamless flow of indivisible perceptions that the mind labels....yet never do words capture or contain it.

See if it is like that or not.

what is there before the mind even labels them perceptions
and goes on to label them sounds sights thoughts emotions etc.?

Love,
Nettie

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Riawakening
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Riawakening » Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:54 pm

Dear Nettie,

What about time?

Time is tricky one for me. My mind understands time as a timeline - everything flows from past toward future. Problem is that I can't measure duration od the "now", so it seems that timeline doesn't really convey reality. If reality is seamless unitary flow, that same reality was yesterday and will be tomorrow. So same reality is present everytime only changes patterns. Past and future are only labels, but in reality it is only now or that seamless unitary flow. If past and future in reality doesn't exist, the now doesn't have any sense.

Yes it seems that words/thoughts split up unitary flow into separate bits. If this reality is really unitary flow is obvious that thougts/words are patterns of reality, so real splitting is not possible.
Yes if we want to have flower we must create everything that is not that flower including me. No, the word flower doesn't really convey the expirience of the flower. Real experience includes much more - everything what is going on with and around that flower, whole expirience including body ih front of that flower. Words are only pointers. I remember someone said " You can't drink word water.

Hmm the phrase "All there is" now sounds genuine.

Yes, words can't capture, they can only point to real expirience.
What is before mind even labels them perceptions ? I am not sure. Something obviously is, but before labelling I can't say what is. I can call that unitary moving energy, but that is labeling and again a word, only pointer not real thing.

Something is on my mind. I ask myself, how looks real world if everything is seen through subjective perceptions? Everything ever seen are only perceptions - confused again.

Marin

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Nettie
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Nettie » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:28 pm

Dear Marin,

" Past and future are only labels, but in reality it is only now or that seamless unitary flow. If past and future in reality doesn't exist, the now doesn't have any sense. "

Yes. However the feeing of passing time still arises spontaneously and naturally like everything else. Is there anyone who can stop or control these feelings?

"Yes it seems that words/thoughts split up unitary flow into separate bits. If this reality is really unitary flow is obvious that thougts/words are patterns of reality, so real splitting is not possible."

Yes.

"Hmm the phrase "All there is" now sounds genuine. "
Nice

"Yes, words can't capture, they can only point to real expirience.
What is before mind even labels them perceptions ? I am not sure. Something obviously is, but before labelling I can't say what is. I can call that unitary moving energy, but that is labeling and again a word, only pointer not real thing. "

Yes! Words are pointers nothing more.

"Something is on my mind. I ask myself, how looks real world if everything is seen through subjective perceptions? Everything ever seen are only perceptions - confused again. "

The wordless world is always on yet rarely noticed...and there is nothing you can do or not do to recognize it.
For you are merely a label. A set of fleeting descriptions. How could a label do anything?

Perceptions happen and they are recognized with memories and learned words and thoughts. And dividing the flow is necessary for the survival of the body. Yet using the divisive mind to figure out what is going on is impossible.... As it is not pin-down-able. It is simply not a thing which can be examined.
Is there a separate you who can step outside of oneness and examine it?
Capture it?
Stop it?
Change it or re-arrange it?
Is there a controller?
Look for a separate independent self.

Love,
Nettie

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Riawakening
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Riawakening » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:40 pm

Dear Nettie,

I agree there is no one who can stop or control the feeling of passing time. It's mind's automatical interpretation of changes ih this seamless unitary flow. It seems to me if that flow is just one, changes are observed, but in the same time flow is stil the same so it is changeless.

On the bottom level is the wordless world, than we have senses which perceive sensory inputs, and on the top comes mind with his labels. So on the top layer world is a stoty made of labels. It's clear that flow is still unitary and story (flow's pattern) is made automatical. This is my impression.

I felt unsecure this morning, because it was recognized that everything is a mystery including me. Thought story with labels gives to me a sense of security.

I can't step outside of oneness and examine it, because I am a part of oneness. This statement also isn't correct because there is no parts, just oneness. No room for real me. So there is no one who can capture it, stop it, change it or re-arrange it. There is no controller, because there is no one outside oneness to control oneness. So no controller.

Here are still feelings and thoughts about separate independent me, but after examination it's obvious that real separate me is absent.

I see now that separate me is absent and that the flow is All there is, but fears mostly about future imagined events still disturb this body and produce uneasiness. OK these fears loosing power and subside quickly, but they are still intense. Maybe more looking is needed?
I promissed no expectastions, but fears trigger questions?!

Love,
Marin

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Nettie
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Nettie » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:35 am

Dear Marin,

"It's clear that flow is still unitary and story (flow's pattern) is made automatically. This is my impression."
Life happens automatically?
Is there a decider a chooser a thinker?

"I felt unsecure this morning, because it was recognized that everything is a mystery including me. Thought story with labels gives to me a sense of security. "
Yes it can feel secure... But it is really more like a prison.
Is there anything solid or stable or fixed... Ever?

"I can't step outside of oneness and examine it, because I am a part of oneness. This statement also isn't correct because there is no parts, just oneness. No room for real me. So there is no one who can capture it, stop it, change it or re-arrange it. There is no controller, because there is no one outside oneness to control oneness. So no controller. "
Yes!

"Here are still feelings and thoughts about separate independent me, but after examination it's obvious that real separate me is absent."
So if there is nothing when examined. There is likely nothing there when un-examined.

"I see now that separate me is absent and that the flow is All there is, but fears mostly about future imagined events still disturb this body and produce uneasiness. OK these fears loosing power and subside quickly, but they are still intense. Maybe more looking is needed?
I promissed no expectastions, but fears trigger questions?! "
So wordless energy is automatically labeled fear. Without effort. When jumping out of an air plane ...
For some it's labeled fear...others excitement.... Others anxiety..
All utterly life simply happening.
And we keep chatting until you are certain there is no separate you.
No chooser no decider no thinker...
Was there ever a separate you?
How do you think that misperception arises?

Love,
Nettie

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Riawakening
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Riawakening » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:10 pm

Dear Nettie,

"Life happens automatically?"
Yes, everything happens automatically without controller anywhere.

" Is there a decider a chooser a thinker?"
No, deciding, choosing and thinking happens and that's all. No one responsible for these actions.

"Is there anything solid or stable or fixed... Ever?"
No, I can't find anything solid or stable. Everythig is continually in motion, only mind gives that impression that solid separate things exist by labelling. Everythig is one unitary process.

"So if there is nothing when examined. There is likely nothing there when un-examined."
Yes, separate independent me is absent before, during and after examination.

You answered my question about fears with statement "All utterly life simply happening" and I saw that that is answer to all questions and doubts. After that, all questions about me become irrelevant, these questions in thougt story sounds resonable, but in reality are totally irrelevat. When doubt or fear or happines arise it is seen as a present expression of... yes wordless world is nice pointer. Even my search is just a story, because no one searches for nothing. I didn't decide to start seeking, it was just mind's response to suffering. Even our conversation just happens.
I still have negative thoughts, judgements about events and people around me, but I don't judge these thoughts any more. Everything seems OK. After negative thougts follow thought "It just happend, so here is no one who can do anything obout these thoughts."
More about fears, maybe would be better if disturbing energy isn't labelled as fear and not desirable, excitement sounds much better, but again I can do nothing about that, just is like that.

"Was there ever a separate you?"
No there was not ever a separate me, just what is.

"How do you think that misperception arise?"
First of all that is natural process as everything else, it happens only to humans, because we can imagine things. It is a great gift, but also it's responsible for suffering when we imagine separate self, future bad situations etc. I think that nature of language and people around us give us impression that we are separate controlling entities. Every action done by this body is seen as my action. We think mostly using language, and that is constant wrong reminder that we are separate and responsible for actions. That is ground for guilt, pride and fear. Also religions promote ideas that we are people with destiny in our hands and one day separate God will judge our deeds. Very important is that we never examine nature of thoughts, feelings and perception, so we can't see that there is no doer or controller. We don't see things directly, we mostly see labels or thoughts. Thought stories are usefull for living in society but body can be stressed by these stories if we beleive that we are only story characters.

Marin

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Nettie
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Re: Ready to stop seeking

Postby Nettie » Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:41 pm

Dear Marin,

"Life happens automatically?"
"Yes, everything happens automatically without controller anywhere."
Nice!

" Is there a decider a chooser a thinker?"
No, deciding, choosing and thinking happens and that's all. No one responsible for these actions."

Wow! What a relief! You are off the hook!

"Is there anything solid or stable or fixed... Ever?"
"No, I can't find anything solid or stable. Everythig is continually in motion, only mind gives that impression that solid separate things exist by labelling. Everythig is one unitary process. "
Yes.

""So if there is nothing when examined. There is likely nothing there when un-examined."
Yes, separate independent me is absent before, during and after examination. "
Yes!

"You answered my question about fears with statement "All utterly life simply happening" and I saw that that is answer to all questions and doubts. After that, all questions about me become irrelevant, these questions in thougt story sounds resonable, but in reality are totally irrelevat. When doubt or fear or happines arise it is seen as a present expression of... yes wordless world is nice pointer. Even my search is just a story, because no one searches for nothing. I didn't decide to start seeking, it was just mind's response to suffering. Even our conversation just happens. "
Yes. How wonderful!
"I still have negative thoughts, judgements about events and people around me, but I don't judge these thoughts any more. Everything seems OK. After negative thougts follow thought "It just happend, so here is no one who can do anything obout these thoughts."
More about fears, maybe would be better if disturbing energy isn't labelled as fear and not desirable, excitement sounds much better, but again I can do nothing about that, just is like that"
Yes..

"Was there ever a separate you?"
No there was not ever a separate me, just what is.

"How do you think that misperception arise?"
First of all that is natural process as everything else, it happens only to humans, because we can imagine things. It is a great gift, but also it's responsible for suffering when we imagine separate self, future bad situations etc. I think that nature of language and people around us give us impression that we are separate controlling entities. Every action done by this body is seen as my action. We think mostly using language, and that is constant wrong reminder that we are separate and responsible for actions. That is ground for guilt, pride and fear. Also religions promote ideas that we are people with destiny in our hands and one day separate God will judge our deeds. Very important is that we never examine nature of thoughts, feelings and perception, so we can't see that there is no doer or controller. We don't see things directly, we mostly see labels or thoughts. Thought stories are usefull for living in society but body can be stressed by these stories if we beleive that we are only story characters. "
Very nice.

One more....
Does it feel like you are an observer or awareness separate from perception?

Love,
Nettie


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