Seeking Only TRUTH

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Gafith
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Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Gafith » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:01 pm

I seem to be at a point where I recognize that beliefs will lead me nowhere and never satisfy me, but I haven't gotten through the limited intellectual awareness of awareness, so TRUTH is still just a concept (and one that doesn't actually sound entirely attractive, to be honest). But, I seem to have no interest in any endeavor other than discovering TRUTH, so I would most definitely welcome any guidance available to help me move through this. Thank you!

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Xain
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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Xain » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:05 pm

Hi Gafith

I may be willing to guide you.
I seem to be at a point where I recognize that beliefs will lead me nowhere and never satisfy me, but I haven't gotten through the limited intellectual awareness of awareness, so TRUTH is still just a concept.
Indeed. Any spoken or written 'truth' is a concept, which I am sure you realise. We must use language, concepts and the mind to communicate ideas and descriptions. They can only point to the truth. Truth itself can only be experienced.

Our dialogue together would be to examine 'I', this separate entity/person that we take ourselves to be, to have the realisation that there is no separate 'I' here, not has ever been. Is this what is being sought?

Have you been following any non-dual teachers or read any literature (like Gateless gatecrashers for example)?
What do you think?

Xain ♥

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Gafith » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:25 pm

Thank you for responding!!

I have given up pretending that I know what is being sought, other than the TRUTH, and I don't have any reason to think that I know what that is. I'm doing quite well at identifying what it's not, which I cognitively recognize that it's not anything, but experiencially all I've confirmed is that it's not a very fun state to exist where I willing given up dreamstate pursuits of happiness (really I had no choice once I recognized that it was futile), without any other/any thing taking their place . . .

I'm currently 48 years old, and I've actually been focussed on general path for at least two decades. I won't bore you with all the deadends I took, but I began with Paramahansa Yogananda/Self-Realization Fellowship (I lived in San Diego, at the time), and proceeded willy-nilly through Western Magick, Kundalini yoga, and the Uniao de Vegetal (the church approved by the US Supreme Court to use Ayahuasca), among others. About four years ago I discovered, and resonated with, A Course in Miracles, which launched me in this direction, although I didn't know it. Back in June, I somehow discovered Fred Davis (probably due to reading Manuel Schoch's "Bitten by the Black Snake", which definitely impacted me like no previous book) and did a "Direct Pointing Session" with him where I had some significant clarity, and subsequently have read both of his books and had a couple of follow-up sessions. I've recently read the first two Jed McKenna books (I started the third last night). I've downloaded several other books, including Gateless Gatecrashers, The Direct Path (Greg Good - which was recommended to me in an e-mail exchange with Jed McKenna) and the Unthered Soul (Michael A. Singer - recommended by Fred Davis). I've also been listening to podcasts by Rupert Spira, which I've found to be truly transcendent. Since first contacting Fred Davis, I've been fully engaged in this orientation in a (fantastic) way unlike anything I've experienced before. About two months ago I made the discovery of the ability to move from being "Ted" (that's my name) to just being aware of Ted and observing him. This has put all of what I had "learned" into a completely new context, despite still using the same words.

Is this what you're looking for?

Thanks again!

Ted

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Xain » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:04 am

I have given up pretending that I know what is being sought, other than the TRUTH, and I don't have any reason to think that I know what that is.
That sounds like the perfect place to approach this from.

You have had quite a journey.
I know most of those teachers and book - Indeed, I have Greg Goodes' 'The Direct Path', and I am a member of the Facebook support group for that particular book, (of which Greg is also a member).
Is this what you're looking for?
Perfect. It's good to know where a person is 'coming from' for our dialogue together.

I would ask, though, that you put all non-dual teachings and concepts to one side for our discussion together and approach this very simply and freshly.

Our discussion is simply an extension of your own self-enquiry. I will not be feeding you any new beliefs or ideas; merely examining the ones that you have. As such, most of the dialogue will be me asking questions and you replying, although feel free at any time to mention anything that comes up. There are no 'wrong' answers.

A few guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
(Scroll down the page)

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done above to quote some of your replies - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Xain ♥

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Gafith
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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Gafith » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:46 am

Hi Xian-

I'm happy to commit to making this a daily endeavor and abiding by the other guidelines, and to put aside any non-dual concepts/teachings I may have accumulated - thank you for your willingness to help me!

I'm having trouble getting the Quote function to work on my iPad, but I'll work it out . . .

I very much look forward to working with you.

Ted

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Xain » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:21 am

Great stuff, Ted.

I will just quickly go back and address this point that I missed.
About two months ago I made the discovery of the ability to move from being "Ted" (that's my name) to just being aware of Ted and observing him.
If I could put your description in other terms, it appears that you went from being a person 'Ted' to just being the observer of a person called 'Ted'. This is Rupert Spira I think :-)
Nothing wrong with that. This is a useful intermediary step in Advaita.
However our dialogue together will be to discover and directly realise that there is no separate individual called 'Ted' here. Nor has there ever been a person called 'Ted' (other that a thought).

Let's dive in.

It is believed that there is an 'I', a 'me', a separate 'person' here right now and that person is 'Ted'.
As such, we should be able to identify this person called 'Ted' in the immediate moment.
We can think of what Ted did in the past, and what Ted might do in the future, but we need to look RIGHT NOW to see if we can find this separate individual 'I' / 'me' / 'Ted'. Not as a thought but as something actually real.

Let's start by establishing what can be said for this moment right now in relation to our own Direct Experience.
Please let me know if the following is an accurate description of what is happening in your own view.

All the senses are operating - There is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touch.
There might also be thoughts appearing. Perhaps direct thoughts like 'What will I have for dinner' or 'What did I do yesterday'. Thought also might be something abstract like the memory of a sense, for example, remembering someone's face, or recalling the sound of your favourite music, or maybe thinking about the taste of something you enjoyed.

All these senses are 'here' now, and in the case of thoughts, if we were thinking of something right now, we would be experiencing a thought.
So we can examine our senses and we can examine our thoughts in the immediate moment.
Is that a fair assessment?
Is there anything else to add that is here 'now' that can be examined in relation to your own Direct Experience of this moment?

I ask this, as I need to establish how we can go about our investigation here together.
If we say that there is an 'I' here right now, then either we can find it using our senses, or we cannot.
We can examine our search against 'thoughts' - Perhaps the answer we are getting is, in reality, the content of our thought, and is not something 'real' that can be found.

Let me know your thoughts about this - Anything you would like to question before we continue?

Xain ♥

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Gafith » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:56 pm

The way I'm currently thinking about is that "Ted is here right now" means that all the thoughts (or, maybe, one massive and very complex thought) that create the dream-figure "Ted" are here right now, whether the result of sensations, thoughts, or a combination of the two. But, there isn't actually a "Ted" here. Just thoughts. And, an Awareness that witnesses the thoughts, if allowed to. That same Awareness can, apparently, be consumed by the thoughts, so that the "Ted" thought(s) seem to actually replace Awareness. In other words "Ted" loses track of being Aware, while only feeling whatever the amalgamation of sensations the thoughts provides. But the Awareness is still there, or else the experience of the thoughts wouldn't be happening (and the memory of the sensations/thoughts wouldn't be accessible, I suppose). However, it's possible to pull Awareness out of the thoughts (that's the breakthrough I was referring to), which in my experience seems to effectively and immediately neutralize the feelings that resulted from the thoughts. Unless the intensity of the feeling pulls Awareness back in. Which happens sometimes, and every time that it doesn't, very quickly (a matter of seconds, usually), Awareness gets sucked back into the next bolus of thoughts, anyway, and the dreamstate "Ted" has re-appeared. I've reached the impression that it's these thoughts that are the dreamstate, and the Awareness is what's REAL. I'm definitely convinced that nothing that can be experienced in the dreamstate is permanent, and the degree to which it is desirable is only a function of the thoughts about it, which are the result of the entire belief system created by . . . thoughts. So, it's thoughts creating thoughts. They're not creating "Ted," but in the moments where Awareness is not dominant, there's nothing else but "Ted."

My experience of Awareness is that it is very real, without boundaries (including time and space), entirely passive, and devoid of any feeling. So, I can't find anything to "hang on to" once I've accessed Awareness. It's just Awareness. Which is nothing, although I'm sure it exists and is accessible all the time. I haven't experience any actual benefit to accessing Awareness, although it is extremely effective at pulling me out of emotions, so if the emotions are negative, awareness is preferable to that.

Have I made any sense and/or given you a place to start?

One issue that I'm really struggling with (and doesn't need to be addressed now, if not appropriate), is that I can't stand being around people any more. Nothing they have to say seems to interest or matter to me, because I immediately recognize how they have built a belief system that makes it important to them, but without actually making it important. The perfect example would be the fan of a soccer team. Whether the team wins or not really doesn't matter - nothing is accomplished by kicking a ball into a net more than the other guy, other than a goal was achieved (literally and figuratively!), the desired outcome happened, and probably some people get more money. But none of that's actually important, other than it serves well the arbitrary structure it occurred in (fans from the winner can feel superior to fans of the loser, the winners will have more money to buy bigger houses and receive more adoration from the fans they made feel superior, etc.). Anyway, I'm finding myself more and more isolated (I'm under the impression that people like me - I just am instantly bored around them), but I don't have even the slightest desire to change. At least I don't feel like changing now, and I get concerned that down the road I will be entirely alone and devoid of social skills, which leave my physical body in a precarious position because I won't have a network to help me secure/maintain a livelihood, nor will I have anyone to take care of me should that be necessary. Is this just a stage (I actually used to have a very active social life). I guess that's where my trust in the universe should kick in? That's a side to this process that completely escapes my comprehension, although I definitely have had fortuitous synchronicities along the way . . .

Ted

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Xain » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:27 am

Hi Ted

You seem to have launched into a very deep discussion and given me a lot of Advaita references regarding 'Awareness', 'Dream states', time and space etc - I need to pull your right back to the very start.

Please put all your previous study to one-side for our discussion here. This is very important.
Right off the bat, you seem to be going into deep mental analysis of something which is simple in the extreme.

Don't worry - We can address the things you have mentioned, but can you very simply give an answer to my previous question in relation to your experience right here and now.

The senses are operating. Hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting etc.
There might also be thoughts appearing.
Is this a fair assessment of your direct experience of the immediate present moment?
The senses - Can this text be seen? Can sounds in the room be heard? etc
Thoughts - Thoughts might be appearing. Memories, decisions, choices, judgements etc
Are there other things present in your experience you can mention other than what can be gained from the senses, or what can be gained through thinking/thoughts?
I need to know this to make sure we are both approaching this from the same point.

Xain ♥

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Gafith » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:07 am

Yep, my senses are operating. I'm feeling the chair, hearing the dog whine, seeing this web page (and chair and walls etc.), etc. And, all kinds of thoughts are running around my head. I would say that there are feelings as well, but I'm not sure if those count as thoughts, or not. Beyond that, I don't think there is anything else present in my experience.

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Xain » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:21 pm

Great!
It may seem far too simple, but that is precisely where we need to be.

As we have said, we are examining 'I' to try to determine what that one is. Is it real? What does it do? etc

Now in order to find something, we can use our senses.
If the 'thing' is not found using the senses, it could be that what we are getting is from the result of thoughts.

Ok, again keeping this very very simple, I would ask you what 'I' is for you.
When you say the word 'I' or 'me' what exactly are you referring to and indeed what is 'I', 'me' responsible for (if anything).

Let me see if I can start the ball rolling by examining some of the things you said previously.
The way I'm currently thinking . . .
Ok, so right now 'I' is the one that thinks - The thinker.
Perhaps also, 'I' is the one that has thoughts. 'My thoughts' - The thoughts belong to 'I'.
My experience of Awareness is . . .
So 'I' is the one that experiences.
Since 'experience' can be described as 'perceiving using the senses', perhaps I could develop this further to say that 'I' is the one that sees, hears etc. 'I' is the one that does these sensory functions.
One issue that I'm really struggling with . . .
'I' is the one that struggles. Perhaps I could develop this to include 'I' is the one that understands (or doesn't understand), or attempts to grasp something mentally.

These are some pointers, but I don't want to tell you what is right. Please write back what you think.
What is 'I' for you? What does the words 'I', 'me', point to?
One issue that I'm really struggling with (and doesn't need to be addressed now, if not appropriate), is that I can't stand being around people any more. Nothing they have to say seems to interest or matter to me, because I immediately recognize how they have built a belief system that makes it important to them, but without actually making it important.
I could leave this until later, but I will touch on it now as it appears important for you.

As I understand it from what you have written, your anger/dissatisfaction with people is based on the belief system that they have built.
The one pointer for me here is the assumption that you have made that they had a choice in this matter.
That 'they' built their belief systems. That 'they' had a choice to act and behave in the way that they do.

We can use this.
We often write 'I choose', 'I chose'.
Again, if we examine what 'I', 'me' is in your own case would it be correct to say that 'I' is one that chooses?

Do YOU have a choice to behave in the way that you do?
This assumption is also based on the assumption of choice and free-will.
Do you believe that you choose and have free-will? Can you give examples of this?

Xain ♥

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Gafith » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:55 pm

I'm not sure how to answer the question regarding what "I" is for me. The first answer I want to give is basically what I was trying to say previously, but that must not be right and/or useful in this context, so now I would say it must be my mind, but I don't know what that is. I would say "mind" is a shortcut for what I said previously. So then "I" would have to be my brain.

I do not believe that I have free will. I believe that, based on the beliefs that I have at any point in time (what I have established as goals, what I expect I'm capable of, what other people will do, etc.), there is only one "optimal" action available to me, so that is what I will do. I don't have a choice, because if I do something different, it would only be possible if my beliefs were different. And, each belief was the result of previous experiences which unfolded in the same manner, so I didn't have a free choice in developing my beliefs, either. That's what my logic tells me . . . It sure FEELS to me like I have the ability to unwind my beliefs once I become aware of them, but I can't figure out how the belief structure can be ignored. I guess that proves that I can't choose my beliefs, either.

For the record, I don't actually blame the other people for my desire to get away from them - I blame me. I believe that they have no choice based on their beliefs. Since I feel like I can access my beliefs, I should maybe be able to change them sufficiently to be comfortable in the conversation, or be comfortable with the prospects of no conversations at some point in the future. But it's not unfolding that way, and this has been the case now for several years (I used to be very social!). Again confirming that I don't control my beliefs or anything else.

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Xain » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:19 am

Ok, let's wade right in here.
The first answer I want to give is basically what I was trying to say previously, but that must not be right and/or useful in this context.
Well, I do not wish to confine your descriptions. I just wanted to ensure that you write very simply and not from what you have learned through Advaita.
To put it directly, if you were to say 'I am pure awareness' but really believe that you are Ted, a person currently reading text on a computer screen it wouldn't assist our investigation. I want you to write what you FEEL is right.
. . . so now I would say it must be my mind
Ok, so 'I' is 'my mind'.
Let's probe this one deeper.

When you say 'my mind' what exactly are you referring to?
Is 'mind' anything other than a label given to a string of thoughts?
Do the thoughts 'belong' to you? If they do, explain how this is known.

If you were to sit there without any thoughts, what is 'mind' then? Does it exist?
So then "I" would have to be my brain.
Is 'brain' something you have identified using the senses, or is it a thought?
I do not believe that I have free will
Ok, but let's check this further.
Am I right in thinking you are saying that there is an 'I' currently here that does not have free-will.
Right now, in the immediate moment describe this 'I' that does not have free-will as you see it. What can you find?
I guess that proves that I can't choose my beliefs, either.
Well, what 'I' would be the chooser of beliefs? Can you identify that one?

Xain ♥

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Gafith » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:41 am

To put it directly, if you were to say 'I am pure awareness' but really believe that you are Ted, a person currently reading text on a computer screen it wouldn't assist our investigation. I want you to write what you FEEL is right.
I believe it is my awareness that is what is making it possible to read this. That never changes. What does change is that the vast majority of the time, awareness is functioning without being primary. In other words my thoughts are usually running things, and awareness is obscured. But nothing could be experienced without awareness.
When you say 'my mind' what exactly are you referring to?
Is 'mind' anything other than a label given to a string of thoughts?
Do the thoughts 'belong' to you? If they do, explain how this is known.
I think that mind is both the generator and the reactor to thoughts (reacting by generating new/more thoughts/beliefs). Nothing more. The thoughts then basically belong to the previous thoughts -I don't know what the genesis of the thoughts was, though.
Is 'brain' something you have identified using the senses, or is it a thought?
It is something that is identified through the sense. It's part of the body and runs the body.
Am I right in thinking you are saying that there is an 'I' currently here that does not have free-will.
Right now, in the immediate moment describe this 'I' that does not have free-will as you see it. What can you find?
That's true if awareness is not primary. What seems to be the "I" is all of the thoughts/beliefs, so it's the mind, and it does not have free will. The "I" in this moment is just acting out what it he thoughts/beliefs mandate. When I examine it, I switch into awareness mode, and therefore should be able to nullify/change thoughts/beliefs, if it can become aware of ALL of the thoughts/beliefs operating right now.
Well, what 'I' would be the chooser of beliefs? Can you identify that one?
The "I" would be the mind, which is the thoughts/beliefs.

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Xain » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:05 am

As we said from the start, in the immediate moment the senses are operating and also thoughts may be appearing to us.
It is important to identify if you are getting the answer from the senses, or from thought. I will have to press you on each question until you can confirm these details for me.
I believe it is my awareness that is what is making it possible to read this.
Just check in. 'Ted' is not reading this sentence, but 'Ted's awareness' is reading this sentence.
Explain to me how this difference is known.
I must say that 'unchanging awareness' sounds like something from Rupert Spira - But I am not going to confine your replies. Please write exactly what you feel is correct.
What 'thing' can you identify right now, that is currently reading this sentence?
If there is a 'I' here that has awareness, and that 'I' knows that it's awareness is reading this text, describe this 'I' that knows this. Which senses are you using to find this 'I' that has 'awareness'?
I think that mind is both the generator and the reactor to thoughts
How have you determined this? Or is it an assumption?
Right here and now, can you find a mind that generates thoughts?
If so, describe it to me. What senses were used to find it?
Is 'brain' something you have identified using the senses, or is it a thought?

It is something that is identified through the sense. It's part of the body and runs the body.
Ok. Which senses did you use to find 'brain'. Describe how you found it.
Also, describe how, in the immediate moment, you know it is 'part of the body' and also 'that it runs the body'?
Or is this ALL just thought?
That's true if awareness is not primary.
There is a temptation to use analysis and philosophy here, but that will not assist you.
Write from what you actually experience in the current moment.
Please try to answer again.
Right now, in the immediate moment describe this 'I' that does not have free-will as you see it. What can you find? Which senses have you used to find it? Explain.
Well, what 'I' would be the chooser of beliefs? Can you identify that one?
The "I" would be the mind, which is the thoughts/beliefs.
Do you experience a mind choosing beliefs? Or is that a thought about what happens?
Right here in the immediate present moment, is there a 'mind' capable of choosing beliefs?
If so, describe that one to me. Which senses did you use to find that one?
Or is this just a thought?

Xain ♥

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Re: Seeking Only TRUTH

Postby Gafith » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:47 pm

Just check in. 'Ted' is not reading this sentence, but 'Ted's awareness' is reading this sentence.
Explain to me how this difference is known.
Sometimes I 'read' a sentence, and have no memory of having read it, and no idea what the sentence said. That's when only 'Ted' reads the sentence. When I read it, remember it, and recognize the content (even if i don't understand it), then awareness was involved. So, I guess the difference is known through the thought about the experience of it.
I must say that 'unchanging awareness' sounds like something from Rupert Spira - But I am not going to confine your replies. Please write exactly what you feel is correct.
What 'thing' can you identify right now, that is currently reading this sentence?
My eyes are seeing the sentence. I don't know what is doing the thinking about he sentence, which seems like the difference between seeing and reading.
If there is a 'I' here that has awareness, and that 'I' knows that it's awareness is reading this text, describe this 'I' that knows this. Which senses are you using to find this 'I' that has 'awareness'?
I'm using awareness to experience awareness, and I'm using thought to know this is happening. I don't think any senses are involved - just thoughts making thoughts, and awareness experiencing it. I don't know what is enabling me to be aware of the thoughts.
How have you determined this? Or is it an assumption?
Right here and now, can you find a mind that generates thoughts?
If so, describe it to me. What senses were used to find it?
I cannot find a mind that generates thoughts.

Ok. Which senses did you use to find 'brain'. Describe how you found it.
Also, describe how, in the immediate moment, you know it is 'part of the body' and also 'that it runs the body'?

I can't find the brain right now, so I guess it's a thought in this moment, in the same way the Pyramids are a thought - there are physical mechanisms available to experience either one, but they're not at my disposal right now. Is there a distinction for our purposes between my brain and my liver? I guess if I can't actually interact with it directly in the moment, through my senses, then it's just a thought?

Do you experience a mind choosing beliefs? Or is that a thought about what happens?
Right here in the immediate present moment, is there a 'mind' capable of choosing beliefs?

It seems to me that with awareness of the beliefs, I can become aware of the thoughts that allow the belief to exist, and can change the thoughts (to the degree that other beliefs aren't impinged upon), and thereby change the original belief. I have no sense at all of what device I'm using to do that.


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