Dawn, this is your thread

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Rahaen
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Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Rahaen » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Jump in, the water is lovely...
Sent: Yesterday, 17:21
by Dawn

Rahaen:

I am exactly where you were at this point in your posts. I think I've beaten all of it except the fact that there's still a watcher. How did you overcome this? I read your reasoning here, but nothing's reaching out and clue-smacking me.

I've tried "looking" but it feels like I can't crank my head around that far, or something. Or if I can, I'm just looking in the wrong place, or the right place at the wrong time. Sigh.

I've watched my mind say some obvious lies about all of this, and appreciate it could have made me ANYONE, and I believe all of the no-personality stuff on a visceral level, but there's still that damned watcher. Help?

D.

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... 3513#p3513

---
Re: Jump in, the water is lovely...
Sent: Today, 14:08
by Rahaen

Hey Dawn,

I'd be happy to help you see this. It is much simpler than your mind will make you believe. It is in fact the simplest thing. Literally. I generally prefer to do this stuff in a one-on-one thread on the forum, as it makes a lot of things easier, so with your permission I would open a new thread for you and copy this message and your reply into it. Is that acceptable?

Anyway, if you're the watcher - how do you watch?

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:35 am

Thank you for the time and the help, Rahaen!

> if you are the watcher - how do you watch?

This was baffling. It took me a long time to get something other than "I just do" as an answer.

I get the sense that I'm sitting behind my eyes idly paying attention to everything, with occasional directing of concentration to objects or thoughts that I want to focus on.

I still feel kinda blank on the details.

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:01 am

I have been thinking about this off and on, but I've been very busy. Tomorrow I will have most of the day off to devote to it. I'm ready to do this!

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Rahaen
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Rahaen » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:09 pm

I get the sense that I'm sitting behind my eyes idly paying attention to everything, with occasional directing of concentration to objects or thoughts that I want to focus on.
Observe the desire to focus on something. Do you choose what to focus on? Do you choose what you want to focus on? When a thought comes up or a sound - do you choose to perceive it or is it just experienced?

Watch.

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:00 am

Observe the desire to focus on something. Do you choose what to focus on?
I did much of this earlier without access to a computer. I'll do it again now... let's see...

I'm focusing inward on a feeling in my chest.
Do you choose what you want to focus on?
No, I just became aware of it and latched onto it once I looked for it.

Was the looking for it voluntary? Only incidentally... it was prompted by you.

Now there is the odd process I was watching earlier, that seems to be where some of my sense of self/agency comes from. When I focus on something, concentrate, it's not constant. I have to keep reminding myself to look, because my mind will wander elsewhere. I can focus better if I add another feeling to it, associate another feeling with it - like holding my breath, or clenching some muscles while I concentrate.

Now, do I really keep reminding myself to look? No. It's like I just remember to remind myself occasionally. Or, not that *I* remember, but the thought pops up in my brain.

Adding another feeling to it - those feelings are usually already there. I automatically hold my breath, or whatever. The sense of agency actually gets assigned afterwards, when I review what was going on.

Usually sense of agency gets assigned afterwards. And ego. Like, why did I stop here? Oh, I must have seen the red car, and I like red cars.... Bad example, but you get it.

But, adding more sensation definitely intensifies the amount of attention I can put into a task, and it's taken me years to learn to do that, so I get a sense of doing it on purpose. But I guess it's just habit, like muscle memory and playing the piano. If I were really in charge of where my attention went, I wouldn't *have* to expend so much effort on directing it where I want it to go. But, it's the amount of effort that is fooling me. I'm not sure how to break this illusion.

Another weird thing I noticed is that I am running a constant cross-check. Am I concentrating? Yes. That's a tree. Am I concentrating on the tree? Yes. Am I concentrating on the tree? Yes. Boy it will be nice if I can make this enlightenment thing work. How will that effect me? It sounds good. Am I okay with that? Yeah, I'm okay with that. Am I concentrating on the tree? No. I need to concentrate on the tree again. Am I concentrating on the tree? ...

This goes on constantly for ego, too. Stupid things: That guy cut me off! How does this make me look? How do I react? Was that rude? Well, now, I just reacted like anybody would...
When a thought comes up or a sound - do you choose to perceive it or is it just experienced?
I focus on the most intense thing in my perception at any given time. I don't have any choice on what that is. Might be a police siren, might be the computer screen, might be my cat....

I just can't wrap my mind around the experience without an experiencer. I mean... I can OBSERVE it... but I don't KNOW it... and I don't know what to do from here.

Right now the most intense thing in my perception is the air conditioner. It's loud, it's cold. I can feel the air moving on my hands. There's no one *in* "my" hands, but that seems to change somewhere further up my spine. Back to the hands... is there a sense of the cold air travelling up my spine to that person? No. It seems to stop right there on my skin. But someone is perceiving it. Okay, this is where I've taken a wrong turn, obviously. Does anyone need to perceive it? Or can the feeling just be? Looking... looking... I've still got nothing. Sigh. Okay, what if there's no perceiver? How would that feel? It would feel... exactly like it does right now(!).

I am so close... why am I not getting this?!!?

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Rahaen
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Rahaen » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:30 am

But someone is perceiving it.
How do you know? There's a sense that there's an observer, you can't shake it and you assume it indicates an observer. Well, you can't shake it because it's a feeling like any other. You don't have to shake it, you don't have to wrap your mind around it. You just have to see if there's anything behind it.

Look at this. When something suddenly appears in perception, does the feeling that there's an experiencer come up before or after the thing?

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:07 am

The feeling that there's an experiencer seems to come up whenever I think about it. I cannot pin it down to before, after, or during. I'm having a hard time feeling it at all right now because I've been considering this all day, for hours, and it all gets kinda fuzzy at this point. Still trying...

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Rahaen
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Rahaen » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:20 pm

Is there an experiencer when you don't think about it?

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:21 am

Oy, what a koan. I'll have to say yes, because I experienced direct perception today and what I normally feel is definitely NOT that...

...but at the same time, it felt like what goes on all the time if my mind weren't adding that extra step that makes it all seem muddy.

Oh, I remembered what I wanted to say about the cross checking. (I knew I had a point...) I think it's what keeps the ego alive. I suspect that liberation just turns that off. Seems so inefficient, to have to check yourself every half second. Maybe that's what the liberated people mean by "flow" - no stop start to check over and over.

That's all irrelevant, as I really have no idea what to expect. I just wanted to write it before I forgot, and check in for my daily post.

I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to getting it. I feel like I'm hanging by a thread here. It's all just reality from here. I'm a thought... thoughts aren't real. I'm part of reality... I breathe like trees move... there's just... keep getting lost in head. Must pay attention to reality.

Is there an experiencer when you don't think about it? Yes. No. I don't know. Argh! I'll keep trying.

Thank you, Rahaen.

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:58 pm

Okay, I've been reading other threads and the bits about honesty are hitting me, so I'm going to try that angle for a bit.

I keep running away from these questions because they confuse me, and it's late when I see them, and I feel like any insights I have will be blurry or not "stick"...

I'm trying too hard to agree. I need to acknowledge that yes, I *do* feel like there's a me, and explore that, instead of exploring all of the evidence for no-me. I'm now pretty fairly convinced there's no me, through sheer weight of evidence, but that hasn't gotten me anywhere.

I have to run some errands, but I will keep returning to this today. Thanks again.

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Rahaen
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Rahaen » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:41 pm

Thank you, Rahaen.
It is a pleasure, Dawn.
I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to getting it. I feel like I'm hanging by a thread here. It's all just reality from here.
And what is here?

Where does "from here" exist other than as a thought in here? Where does the idea of "getting it" exist other than as a thought and feeling in here?

Is there anything that is not right here and right now?
Must pay attention to reality.
Who controls attention? Who creates the feeling of having to pay attention? Who creates the thought of "I"?

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Rahaen
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Rahaen » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:50 pm

The thought and desire "Must pay attention to reality" - is it not part of reality itself when it comes up?

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:59 am

>> "I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to getting it. I feel like I'm hanging by a thread here. It's all just reality from here.
>
> And what is here?

Here is an imaginary bookmark in my imaginary story of now. Now is real, but I'm not really engaged with it. More like the story takes precedence.

> Where does "from here" exist other than as a thought in here? Where does the idea of "getting it" exist other than as a thought and feeling in here?

Ouch, those are pointed. You're right, I'm making it all up. How the hell would I know the future?

> Is there anything that is not right here and right now?

This one has been giving me problems, or I've been avoiding it, or both.

I'm convinced that plans must exist... they may not be written down yet, but they are thoughts that eventually become reality. Not all plans, sure, but there are some I know will happen eventually... like...

...well, you know, I can't think of a single inevitable plan. Something could always happen to change things.

This is important because ego is half planning. If plans are illusions too... there goes lots of ego.

What else potentially exists outside of here and now?

Thoughts feel like they exist outside of time. Of course that's ridiculous, because when else would I be thinking them? But in fantasy land in my head, all of time is accessible from this one point. I can see just how false it is, imagining getting hit by a bus while daydreaming - that's reality. (Yeah, I'm thinking false thoughts about false thoughts now, I know...)

It's becoming more and more clear to me that this is all about reality. Living inside my head has broken me from reality.

Back to the question... well, history must exist. Circumstances had foundations. It's all dead and gone, though, so I'd never considered it in any useful sense. My mind certainly can't change history. It can rewrite my imaginary history all it wants, though. Still, that takes place in the here and now.

Is there anything else? Um... Well, if there's a God, I imagine he's everywhere at all times. But I wouldn't know that and hadn't factored it in at all.

Actually, I think that's a lot of why the ego narrative exists. People aren't telling it to themselves. They're telling it to God. Who else could timelessly keep tabs on this grand story about what a nice person you are, and actually care? God and thought seem to have the same lack of boundaries in the mind.

What else is outside of here and now? Hm. Hurtling starry universe. Well, we're still in part of it, here and now.

Freaky quantum particles that pop in and out of existence? This is getting way out of my realm of knowledge.

So I guess I can think of some things, but don't know if they're relevant.

>> "Must pay attention to reality."
>
> Who controls attention?

You do, since you just made me stop and consider this. :)

No one. I just watched some kid run by and jump a fence, and no one had to decide that it was interesting enough to watch. It just happened because he was there.

> Who creates the feeling of having to pay attention?

Emotions, definitely. It feels very important that I explore your line of thought - but those are just feelings in my gut being loud, and nothing more.

> Who creates the thought of "I"?

I do. Duh!

Okay, uh... family, socialization... society (all irrelevant I know, just clearing my head)... religion (Osho gets very angry about this)...

More to the point, I've always assumed it's there. The brain likes biased conclusions and it's a hypothesis.

When I go looking for me, I feel feelings in my gut like I'm booting up a sensation I associate with "I". I assume those real feelings mean there's really something there behind it causing them. I have no evidence for this. I will look closer...

I have trouble booting up those feelings sometimes, even.

I keep fixating on the feelings until they fade away, thinking they will give me some clue. But they're just feelings, not attached to anything. I think I've done this for weeks now, and I always end up falling asleep. I wasn't aware of the mistake before. Trying again...

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:04 am

The thought and desire "Must pay attention to reality" - is it not part of reality itself when it comes up?
Stop confusing me! Agh!

Okay, the thought is real, as in it really happens...

but thoughts are lies and I take them too seriously...

which is it?!

Should I NOT pay attention to reality, and this thought is reality, so I shouldn't pay attention to telling myself to pay attention?

No wonder zen monks end up whacking each other with sticks!

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Devina
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Re: Dawn, this is your thread

Postby Devina » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:16 am

Okay. I fel like I've been distancing myself from this whole question, as if I could control the answer. As if I'm in control. Exploring this...


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