I would like a guide

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jriley1779
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I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:47 am

Hello, as the subject says, I would like a guide. Thank You

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jriley1779
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:51 pm

Ok, maybe I need to elaborate a bit. I would be very grateful if someone would be willing to guide me, maybe my original message was a little rude and to the point. Life changed a lot for me over the last 2 years when i started questioning everything. I reached a point recently where any seeking or chasing after enlightenment just stopped as I could see that this was suffering and a sure way to keep one bound. Since that time life has been a lot lighter and more easy going and so maybe there's no problem here. Did the I fall away, I'm not sure. Is it possible to not know? These are questions that I feel a guide may be able to help me with. Thank You, much appreciated. Jason

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nonaparry
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby nonaparry » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:35 pm

Hi Jason,

What brought you to Liberation Unleashed? Can you tell me something of your journey so far?

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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jriley1779
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:02 pm

Hi Nona. Yes I sure can. About 2 years ago I was a normal everyday guy who liked to watch too much tv and eat a lot of junk food. I was not very religious but did have a lot of fear about religion and god and going to hell if i didn't start being more religious. I think it was after watching a movie like the Matrix or something when I just started to say to myself 'there's something going on here' 'there's something we're not being told' 'these movies aren't made just for entertainment'. So this sparked a desire to enquire into the true meaning or origin of life which led to meditation practices and self inquiry and self-improvement (changing my diet, etc.). This resulted in the so-called kundalini energy rising up the spine and I got caught up in the whole online 'spiritual awakening' craze and was convinved this is what was happening to me. Also heard and read about enlightenment and became slightly obsessed with becoming enlightened etc. I had a lot of notions about what enlightenment and spiritual awakening were and for some reason I ended up in a pretty bad state of depression, anxiety and panic attacks etc. Eventually I reached a point where I felt like I didn't want to live anymore and I took myself to the emergency room and was ultimately transferred to a psychiatric hospital for about 6 weeks. I was put on anti-depressants and therapy and things improved since coming out. I have since decided that all that seeking and chasing after enlightenment causes suffering and is not worth it. so the seeking naturally stopped but the interest remained and I got into non-duality, watching videos online and reading but not practicing anything. Mainly I was watching videos by Lisa Cairns and a link led to a video by her partner Laurent Levy and he was talking about this website so that's how I ended up here. Just to note, life has been pretty relaxed and easy-going for quite a while now and at times I wonder if the 'I' has fallen away but can't say for sure if it has. To an extent I don't care too much as long as i feel at peace and not suffering. I feel like I understand intellectually that there is no 'I' like I've heard a lot of people say on here but don't necessarily experience it. Also I have some issues with the concept of no free-will and such and have seen some contradictions in some of the stuff i've read even in the free e-book Gateless Gatecrashers. So basically I like the idea of this website and have seen nothing else like it where people actually guide you and I thought maybe it was for me. Thank You

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nonaparry
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby nonaparry » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:00 pm

Hi Jason,

Have you read our disclaimer here? http://www.liberationunleashed.com

We don't "fix" anything here; and when the illusion of having or being a self is seen through, some people feel despair. I don't want to start you on a path to more suffering.

How long has it been since you got meds and therapy? I, too, suffered from clinical depression, and I had ten years of meds and therapy before I found LU. I just want you to consider that this might not be your best path at this time. And I'm open to guiding you if you are truly stable, and clear this is what you want.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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jriley1779
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:22 pm

Hi Nona,

I had read the disclaimer and have done so again just to be sure. I am not looking to have anything fixed as I don't feel anything is broken. I respect what you said about not starting me on a path to more suffering. I only started taking meds and doing therapy almost a year ago and have recently weaned myself off the meds (about a month now). You make a good point, however I still want to do this and I believe I am ready and also feel I did not end up on this site by accident. If you choose not to guide me at this point for my own well-being I completely understand and respect that decision and will not look for another guide at this time. Thank You again.

Jason

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nonaparry
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby nonaparry » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:40 pm

Thank you, Jason, for your considered reply.

We will begin by looking at what your expectations are. You wonder if the "I" has fallen away. How will you know if it has? What will it mean if it has?
We offer to point you toward Liberation; what does that mean to you? What would it be like to be "liberated"?
You once strove for enlightenment; has that seeking ended? What do you hope for here?

With love,
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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jriley1779
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:55 pm

So

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Re: I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:02 pm

Sorry I sent that last message by mistake. I have no expectations here and do not have an idea of what it will mean to be liberated. Those would just be thoughts and words. I feel like whatever it is will be just what it is. Words would not be able to describe it I feel. The seeking for enlightenment has stopped. It was only causing more suffering. What I would like to get from this if anything is some semblance of truth no matter how mundane it may be.

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nonaparry
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby nonaparry » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:52 am

Hi Jason,
What I would like to get from this if anything is some semblance of truth no matter how mundane it may be.
I think I can promise you will get that; whether you'll get the truth you want to find, I can't say.

Let this thought in, sit with it for a bit and write what feelings, thoughts, tensions, resistances come up:

There is no I at all, no separate self that lives in this body and is a manager, doer, thinker of thoughts. None whatsoever. There is no experience of I, as it does not exist. All there is is life flowing freely as this.
There is no watcher, observer, container of life.


Write all that shows up, especially physical and emotional reactions.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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jriley1779
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:33 am

No feelings, tensions or resistances come up. Everything you said, I've heard before and had strong emotional responses and resistance to. Now though this all seems to have been accepted. There are thoughts that come which say 'how can there be no doer though when it strongly feels like there is?' and 'without someone there, all experiences in life are totally meaningless and life itself is completely pointless.' Something in me doesn't want to hear that. The belief seems to be that if it is true that there is no one there at all and this is fully seen and understood then I will become like a robot or zombie. 'There's no point doing anything since there's no one to do it.'

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jriley1779
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:48 am

Also thoughts come up such as 'if life is just flowing freely with no doer, why is life so apparently cruel?' 'why does life choose to cause pain and suffering to people, animals, etc.' Of course I see that there is not only this cruelness and negativity but also positive actions. Something in me just wonders why the negative stuff though, why the extreme cruelty and suffering imposed on innocent beings?

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nonaparry
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby nonaparry » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:59 pm

Hi Jason,
'how can there be no doer though when it strongly feels like there is?'
Have you ever strongly felt something that wasn't actually true?

I have an exercise for you—close your eyes and imagine you are holding a large watermelon in your hands. Imagine it so vividly, that you feel its weight, shape, temperature, texture of the skin, its scent, the hollow sound when you knock on it. Hold it there, sensing it vividly. Got it?
Now open your eyes.
What happened to the melon? How about the sensation that was so believable?
'without someone there, all experiences in life are totally meaningless and life itself is completely pointless.'
...if it is true that there is no one there at all and this is fully seen and understood then I will become like a robot or zombie. 'There's no point doing anything since there's no one to do it.'
This is nihilism and is as wrong as belief in self as a separate entity.
I want you to notice that you have lived xx years without a real, separate "self"—there is no such entity. Whatever meaning has been in your life remains! Nothing is lost, nothing goes away. There has never been a self in the first place!
'if life is just flowing freely with no doer, why is life so apparently cruel?'
Is Life actually "cruel"? In Reality? Or is "cruel" a label you place on Life after you've judged it and found it wanting? Check it!
'why does life choose to cause pain and suffering to people, animals, etc.'
Is it Life that is choosing "to cause pain and suffering to people, animals, etc"? Or is Life just happening, and you judge it and label it "causing pain and suffering to people, animals, etc."? Check it!
Something in me just wonders why the negative stuff though, why the extreme cruelty and suffering imposed on innocent beings?
Sweetheart, nothing is imposed on innocent beings; we are all just living Life as best we know how in the moment. Each and every one of us. I invite you to check it for yourself!

Here at LU we rely upon Direct Experience when investigating "what is the case". Direct Experience is sensation-prior-to-our-stories-about-it. Sensation before explanation.
Your sensations are seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching. Using those sensations, check whether Life chooses to cause pain and suffering. Can you see, hear, taste, smell, touch that choice, that causation? Or is it just a thought that this happens?

Check your Direct Experience. What can you know via sensation?

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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jriley1779
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby jriley1779 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:57 pm

I get what you mean about things seeming to be true when they're actually not. I understand that it's just a feeling and has no solidity therefore cannot be real.
What you say about meaning also makes sense. Obviously nothing would change. It's just pre-conceived ideas that I have about what it would be like to have no self.
The issue of life being 'cruel' is one I've struggled with a lot but I have started to realize that this is also all thought on my part. I think that the issue I have is that if I believe life is cruel it must mean that I am also cruel and I don't want to believe that even though I know I'm capable of committing 'cruel' acts and have done so. I have seen that when one does something 'cruel' or 'evil' then one can quickly identify with the thought that they attach to the act and subsequently one thinks that they must be evil. I think this can be a huge cause of suffering as generally people want to be 'good' as that is what most are conditioned by upbringing and society to believe is the right way to be. I hope I'm not rambling too much here.
I also think I understand what you are getting at when you talk about sensations. Basically our senses and what they sense are the only things we can really call real. Everything else is just our own ideas, judgements and interpretations of what is sensed. Basically we overthink and over complicate everything with our minds when really it is all so simple.

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nonaparry
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Re: I would like a guide

Postby nonaparry » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:51 am

Hi Jason,

Did you DO the melon exercise? or just Think about it?

When I ask you to check your Direct Experience, I mean just that. Not checking what you Think about something, but checking what you can know about Right Here Right Now.

For example, Right Here Right Now I feel pressure of fingertips as they press down, I see black squiggles showing up in a field of orange-colour, in my peripheral vision I see light and dark shapes, I am aware of breath moving in and out as I feel the chest rise and fall. I don't make assumptions based on what I can know through Direct Experience; I just check if what is being asked is True in my experience. Right now, in my Direct Experience, there is no cruelty; there is Life living itself, and when I judge something that's Happening is "Wrong" I label it cruel, or bad, or not-okay. Right now, in my Direct Experience, there is no suffering; I notice that suffering only happens to the thinking part of Life, not to sensation. Sometimes there is a sensation I label "pain", but I only suffer when I think that sensation shouldn't be there. Right now, in my direct experience, Life is just Happening; nothing is "being imposed on" anything. Not in my seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, which is what I can Know directly. Imposition is a Thought About something, not available in direct experience.

For 58 years I was fooled by thought, thinking that I was or had a separate self, thinking I could know what others' motivations were, thinking that people shouldn't be doing what they were doing when the Reality is they were doing it. Thought tells me all kinds of wonky things. Fortunately, I have learned that I don't have to Believe my thoughts.

So when I ask you to check something in your Direct Experience, this is what I want you to do: Check whether it's true via sensation-prior-to-thought. Do you see it, hear it, smell it, taste it, touch it? If not, what is your Proof that it is true, other than a Thought?

I'd like you to actually physically DO the watermelon experiment, feeling that sensation as strongly as you can manage from imagination. Notice that an imaginary melon can fool some of the senses into thinking it's real, but that, in this case, vision gives you the information that no melon is present.
I'd also like you to check in your Direct Experience whether there is cruelty or something being imposed. Learning to check with Direct Experience is the basic tool of inquiry here, and you should familiarise yourself with it so we can progress.



Sweetheart, I am going to be away from home for two days, and don't know if I'll have internet access. I will do my very best to check in with you, and I apologise in advance if it doesn't happen.

love
Nona
"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains—however improbable—must be the truth." ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


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