Looking for a guide

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Choki
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Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:36 pm

Hi - I'm new to this site and would like to find a guide, if there's anyone around who'd like to guide me? Thanks!

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otterrivers
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby otterrivers » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:26 pm

I will be glad to work with you. nice to meet you choki. Have you read our disclaimer and basic rules?
please have a quick look at this:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=16&t=221

basically we ask that you write at least once a day if possible.
and keep it honest, and short as possible. cut out anything that is not directly to the point.
only answer from experience. set aside any previous teachings or concepts for now if possible.
I will ask the questions, and you answer.
also I ask that you try to relax and have fun with it. there's no reason not to :)
agree? yes or no?

Assuming you agree, I'll start by asking
1) what are your expectations of awakening/liberation? How will you know if it has occurred?
2)When I say "self", "me", or "I"... what do these words point to?

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Choki
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:12 pm

Hi Otterrivers. Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I will try to relax and have fun with it!

1) My expectations of awakening/liberation.... well, really I want to feel less stuck, and I think if it occurs I will feel free and that I don't have any problems and that things aren't too much for me.

2) That's a difficult one! I know theoretically that the self doesn't exist, but it feels like I exist. At the moment I have a cold and am feeling low in energy and wanting things to be different. I guess 'I' is something that causes me suffering by not accepting things as they are, and wanting them to be different. 'I' want to feel free and joyful and expansive and connecting and fulfilled etc. etc. and finding it hard to drop those wishes.... 'I' feels like an impulse to move...

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otterrivers
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby otterrivers » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:25 pm

when checking experience do you find a 'me' that is out there in the future that will have problems or not?
thoughts are part of experience but is there any inherent truth in them? feel with your body and sense through your senses, is there any other reality? if thoughts aren't reality and the story of the past and future aren't real, then what about the main character in the stories? what is narrating the story?

and if this brings relief, you may think 'yes but...' for example: "yes but how do I stay in this relief In the future?" or "yes but if I have seen through the story of self, then why hasn't this behavior stopped" or "yes but I have felt this before and it didn't fix anything" and these are all thoughts that lead consciousness away from the freedom of really BEING right now.

There is something we call 'consciousness' or 'being' right now. right? this can become identified with the thought "I" as a solid being at the center of existence. but is that anything other than a thought?

please tell me how this all resonates with you. next we can investigate the reality of thoughts.

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Choki
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:11 pm

Hi. Logically, I think not. But, after reading your first question and pondering over it, I realised I was split. I'm projecting the me from the past into the future and I'm also beating myself up for still being stuck, both in my living situation and in my head. There is part of me that says I want to be free, and another part that says I can't do it on my own and I need help, and then another (?) part that says I feel bad about not being able to do it on my own, what's wrong with me? So there's a sense of shame. If I can let go of the past, and how I've really felt not good enough so much in my life, and let go of that identity, then I can feel free. There's a sense of dissatisfaction with myself, that I'm not doing what I know I 'should' be doing in order to get what I really want, as if I'm lazy. But, yes, there is some relief if I let go of the past and just start from now. And even while I'm writing this, I'm thinking - I'm not doing this right. There's a fear of getting it 'wrong', and a fear of abandonment. The self seems rather too present at the moment, as if I need to do something and I don't know what. I recognise it as a thought, and a feeling, that limits me.

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Choki
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:24 am

It's me again, or rather there is someone who is typing this and someone who is observing what is happening. For a while I was waiting for a reply to my last post, being aware of intense feelings, needs, wants, disconnection, dissatisfaction, and then I had a sort of realisation - that the suffering was occurring when I was moving away from myself. Staying here, right here, with me, being present, there is only this moment and I am all that is. From trying to somehow escape from the I, to staying with, in this incredible moment of beingness, nothing else is needed.

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otterrivers
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby otterrivers » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:03 am

I apologize for my absence. there has been a death in our family/home (Tuesday) and I haven't had much free time. sorry I didn't tell you earlier. I will try to read and respond again tonight. :)

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Choki
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:44 pm

I'm so sorry. Sending you some warm thoughts. Please take your time, I understand...

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otterrivers
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby otterrivers » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:09 pm

Sorry it took even longer. I have had little time for anything other than sadness, joy, comforting and grief. I am ready to get back into our once-a-day routine now. thanks for your patience and warm wishes.

You say that when you stay with now, and don't move away from yourself, you are not suffering. I see that is true myself, yet what is it that can go back and forth from seeing this then not? What is always there when awareness of staying in the moment is happening, then when identification with past and future character happens... If you write a horrible story about distraction and guilt and "how it should be", or if you write a nicer story about the freedom of being here now with no attachment to the stories of past and future, what is always still there no matter what story is written?

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Choki
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:46 am

That's fine, I really appreciate you writing back, and actually I remember when I've been grieving that by expressing my grief, just allowing myself to be completely present with what was there, and to give time and space to it, it turned into the expression of my love and appreciation.

I am aware of how much my mind conjures up things at times - when I don't know, for example when I didn't hear from you before, I was thinking I'd written the 'wrong' thing, that you would maybe think I was emotionally unstable, that I was different from everyone else because of the way I was writing.... and then I realised that all this was transference (maybe based on some past experiences) & that I'd made it up in my mind and created my own suffering out of it. Being aware of this helped, and especially when I did hear from you and the reason why you hadn't replied straight away. I know this isn't 'therapy' but it feels a bit like being on a couch and observing the projections of my mind. I look back into the past and I see the person I was, and I feel I'm not that person any more but traces still remain. I feel it's the identification that causes suffering, of being a fixed being. There is a spaciousness that can be there when awareness of what I'm doing happens, and when awareness of what others are doing happens. I think there is something that is always there when awareness is happening or when I'm stuck in the horrible story, except when I'm stuck I don't see it. But I'm not sure what 'it' is.... apart from me.

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otterrivers
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby otterrivers » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:06 am

right. "apart from me". Depending on what you mean by "me" there, that is a good answer. the blank paper is always there right? the stage it all happens on. awareness, being, presence, consciousness... these are all words that point you toward the truth of what you are. that is a mystery, and we aren't going to try to figure that out here. we can only help you see what you are not.

So you see in your last answer an example of how believing a story causes suffering (opposite of liberation). the mind tells a story. and if it is not seen as fiction, but actually believed, then suffering occurs. Is it any different with the story of "my life"? Can you find reality in this story of "my past" or "my probable future"? stories of "what should've happened" or "what should happen"? stories of worry about the future based on stories of the past?

When all the stories about past/memory (thoughts that really only arise now) and the projections into the future (also just a thought that happens now) are seen as simple fiction with no basis in reality, what is left? is there any reality outside of what is experienced now?

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Choki
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:00 am

Hi - sorry, I am sure I posted a reply last night and it doesn't seem to be here! I spent quite some time composing my answers as well, and now there is nothing here. Sometimes I feel I can take anything as a teaching! Maybe last night didn't really exist and is now just fiction. There doesn't seem to be anything left! Very strange... but I will post a longer answer tomorrow, as now I'm tired and need to sleep...

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Choki
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:35 am

Back again, and reflecting again on what you've said. Years ago, I followed Ramana Maharshi's teachings, asking myself 'who am I?', I am not this thought, etc., then I got more into meditation and Buddhism, and therapy, but again now I am trying to find myself by a process of elimination - I am not 'that', and so what am I? At times it seems that I can drop the mind altogether and go into the heart - but now I'm questioning even that sense of expansion and oneness - because it feels like a better state to be in, am I deluding myself?

I remember a meditation teacher once saying that I was a different person every time he saw me. I realised that I'm not a fixed entity - and the stories of the past keep this person (me) fixed, and there is continuity into the future. There seems to be some suffering around how I am seen, feeling that I have to be accountable for how I was in the past although I'm a different person now, and wanting to be seen through new eyes. But even that is a memory of the past, that I'm projecting into the future - I don't want people to see me in the way they did in the past, I am telling myself the story that people will label me a certain way, etc. But how to actually free myself of these stories, and the concern about what other people think?

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otterrivers
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby otterrivers » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:20 pm

sorry you lost your answer before. it seems something I posted is now disappeared as well. one option is to click "save" at the bottom before clicking "submit. maybe that will help.

So when looking for what you are by process of elimination, do you expect to find something?
you can find what you are not everywhere you look, but what is the answer to "what/who am I?" there may be an answer yet not in the sense of what we would usually call an answer.

if the sense of expansion and one-ness is beginning to be identified with (there is no self. ...and I am the one who has realized there is no self!) I would not say you are deluded in questioning it. what do you think?
The ego looks for a place to land and set up a new base to expand from.(answers/new beliefs which we trick ourselves into not seeing as beliefs).

can you remember a time when reading a book, or watching a movie when you became very attached to a character? so much that maybe you even feel what this character feels? but if someone really identified with a character (let's say Luke Skywalker, for example) so much that they REALLY believed it was what they are and that what happens to this character is of real importance to them... we would say that is pretty sick, right? imagine all the imbalance and insanity that would cause. how well would you function going around believing this?

Is this person "me" in the past any different from luke skywalker? And what about future? do you have a future, or is this a projection of what you think may happen in the "story of Me."?

Then we are left with the present. without these stories to support it, is there any longer a belief that the character in those stories is the same thing as this presence that is now reading this and just being and feeling? if not then what is this? it's ok to fall into this. it's really the gate we talk about here at l.u. can you feel this space?

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Choki
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Choki » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:10 am

It sort of helped to hear that something you posted disappeared too! The story I'd told myself was that I'd done something 'wrong' - a familiar story, also confusing a lot of the time when I don't know what it is I've done 'wrong', and this also serves to make me feel separate from the rest of the world, as if it's only me who gets it wrong...

Sometimes, by process of elimination, I can let go of the mind and then there is spaciousness and just being. I meant, when I asked whether I was deluding myself, that I wondered whether I was deluding myself to think that being in that space of the heart was the answer to who I am. I'm not sure that I identify with that sense of expansion and oneness, at the time it just is and there is no suffering, it's just that looking back on it I start thinking - maybe that too is just a state to be in, a different state from when I'm focusing on myself, but it is definitely preferable to the 'I' consciousness I spend a lot of my time in.

Well, sometimes I feel that I've sort of identified and empathised with a character in a movie, and what happens to them is of real importance - but this is more symbolic of what would happen to anyone I cared about - but I have also noticed that I can get 'lost' in the story when watching a movie, as if it is really happening. And it is similar in my life, I can get lost in the story as if it's real, it can become 'heavy', and I feel I have to do something about it - or, at times, I can see what my mind is doing to make it heavy, and I can allow a little space. The future has generally been a projection of what I think will happen in the story of me - but, I also have a sense of what it could be - a taste of freedom.

It could be so different. It's almost as if I really want someone else to recognise and accept that it's ok for me to just be, to have permission to just be. It's as if I've been wanting connection, to look into the eyes of another and see myself, and all that is, to be able to feel this. No story, just being.


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