Dance with me - A request for guidance

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John86
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Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby John86 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:02 am

Wandering the web one fine and pleasant day I happened across a man.

"BEWARE!" he cried. "There be monsters!"

"Monsters eh? Okey diddly dokey" says I, and "Toot-a-loo.".

"Monsters that eat souls!" he shouted before I'd gone. "Don't say I didn't warn you!"

Somewhat taken aback I resumed my jaunt, but the incident was soon forgot.

Presently I heard some wonderful, heavenly music. As I drew near, to my delight, I spied a beautiful creature laughing and singing songs of truth and love that thrilled me to the core. With growing joy I came closer.

"Come closer still, my love." she said, "Do you not fear that which you see? Dance then and hear my secret. I will end all your sufferings."

"But this is my life's ambition!" thought I, "Which always I've been seeking." and drew closer still.

"Before I show you your desire oh sweetest love, my Lord and Sire, three things are there that I require: inquire sincerely from the heart; the sacred truth you must impart; and last, dear one, I have to ask you give your soul to the past."

"One moment!" I cried. "My soul! But I need that to live!"

"So do I!" she replied as we embraced and I died. "My name is Freedom, and I am your undoing."

...

This fell out as I started composing my introduction to LU. Please excuse the liberties taken, and all discomfort given to my future self and others. I trust it will shortlived.

As a dabbler in meditations for almost 40 years I have had a few shortlived glimpses of joy and life without I. The most convincing triggered from reading Gateless Gatecrashers. Over the last few months my interest has strengthened considerably, but there remains some doubt or hesitation that this is a sensible path for me. I am aware that earnest application is required - it shall be given. My path has led to your door, and there is no time like the present, so they say. So: I would be honored if some kind soul would take the lead and dance with me.

John

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otterrivers
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby otterrivers » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:14 am

hi john. i'd be glad to work with you. have you read our rules and disclaimer?

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John86
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby John86 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:53 am

Hi Otter, and thank you. I have read the disclaimer and have read through 'Important Information' but have not found a list of rules as such.

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otterrivers
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby otterrivers » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:56 am

are you available for a bit. I am available to talk for a while if you can.

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otterrivers
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby otterrivers » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:04 am

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=16&t=221

it's ok. so you understand the disclaimer.
Basic rules:
Do your best to post once a day.
Only answer fro direct experience of what is seen now.
Keep it short. witty wordplay isn't going to be productive.
Be honest. ask yourself on a scale of 1 to 10 how much do I want to really see the truth regardless of what that may mean. if the answer is below 9, this is not going to be productive.
Agree or disagree?

Assuming you've agreed, let's begin by asking:
1)What do you expect from "liberation"? How will you know when it has happened?

2) When you say "I" "self" "me" etc, what does this point to?

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John86
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby John86 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:49 am

Normally I'll be available to talk between 9.30 and 14.30 New Zealand time.

Thanks for the link. Yep, basic rules understood.

Also understand the degree of commitment required and fully intend to meet that requirement - I agree.

1) I expect to lose the idea of self, to perceive the world more directly free from the baggage of self. Rather than having self in the driving seat, 'life' is doing the driving.
A shift in perception is required. With that shift I expect some gain in insight.
Success will be felt or known rather than intellectually understood
The thinking mind will still be available and life carries on much as usual.

2)My body and my thoughts, including all unconscious processes.
I am writing this. This body is writing this. I claim this body.
When it occurs to me, I like to think God is everything, including me and my thoughts. I am quite happy to substitute the word 'life' instead of 'God'.
It also feels like I have been granted free will. 'I' finds it very difficult to imagine it has no free will.

Is loss of free will part of the deal? Choices still need to be made don't they? This body will always seek the best action for it's advantage, or for the common good?

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otterrivers
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby otterrivers » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:48 pm

(I am on U.S. west coast time. not sure what that is in new Zealand. as I type this, it is 3:48am here just awake so checking in. might as well respond.)

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otterrivers
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby otterrivers » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:06 pm

ok I get what you are saying... and it is good to know what the expectations are so we can start to dismantle them. They all seem like reasonable expectations but the framework they arise from may not have any inherent truth in regard to the reality of awakening to what you are beyond concepts. so we can let go of the expectations for now if possible. don't worry the concepts and beliefs they are based on won't go away and you can pick them up again later if you'd like.

for now we will look a little further into your answers to see where to go next.
what expects to lose an idea of self?
the thinking mind will be available to what?
what gains or loses insight?
(these are different ways to ask the same question, so one answer will be just fine.)

so about 2)
can you see how you answered a question about what is "I" or "My" with the words "My body and thoughts..."?
I understand that language is tricky this way, so can you elaborate:
What is experiencing experience? Look for the point of termination where experience becomes "experiencED"
For example, can you find separation between sound and hearing?

what is this "I" that can claim anything? (seriously look and report what is found / Describe what "I" is if you can without referring to thoughts about it)

let's get clear on this then we can tackle the free will idea

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John86
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby John86 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:50 am

Just to assure you I am working on the questions, it's just that I'm going round and round a bit, and am not yet satisfied with my responses - there's more to come out. No need for further assistance just now, the questions are fine. I'll get back to you within 24 hours

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otterrivers
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby otterrivers » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:06 am

ok. don't worry about getting it perfect. this is more about just looking and reporting on what you see. no need to think too hard. ok i'll talk to you tomorrow john.

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otterrivers
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby otterrivers » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:08 pm

i have to leave now and, possibly will not be able to respond until tomorrow night. just wanted to let you know

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John86
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby John86 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:46 pm

Thanks for letting me know. I too had an unexpected call on my time - my wife is off work again today which means my time is not my own... sorry. However that does give me another day to consider my responses... sorry for all those "mys" too...

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John86
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby John86 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:47 am

NZ is 21 hours ahead of the West Coast (California), so if I'm available between 9.30 NZ and 14.30 NZ weekdays, that would be between 12.30 and 17.30 USA if you still think it helpful to have a talk.

Also would it help if I put quote marks round "I/me/mine" etc to show stuff that ego has claimed eg "my" body "my" thoughts, and if I reference myself in an impersonal way I'll leave out the quotes?

Generally I'm getting side-tracked by a lot of conceptual stuff and am having difficulty selecting appropriate and what I imagine to be productive material. For instance regarding 'awareness' which I'd previously thought of as a 'black box' in my head and had no trouble with as a concept now seems superfluous sometimes. If I take the example of touching my thumb, the black box in my head is not necessary, it is just known that the thumb has been touched, I've no idea where that awareness has taken place - I can't tie it down.

OK next reply will address your questions!

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John86
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby John86 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:07 am


for now we will look a little further into your answers to see where to go next.
what expects to lose an idea of self?
the thinking mind will be available to what?
what gains or loses insight?
(these are different ways to ask the same question, so one answer will be just fine.)
my answer to all those questions is 'self' - a concept humans are predisposed to where they consciously identify with their own mind, body,and actions.
can you see how you answered a question about what is "I" or "My" with the words "My body and thoughts..."?
I understand that language is tricky this way, so can you elaborate:
What is experiencing experience? Look for the point of termination where experience becomes "experiencED"
For example, can you find separation between sound and hearing?
For the touching my thumb example there is just the experience. A central me/awareness/consciousness appears not to be necessary.
I'm looking at the sound/noise example and at where thoughts come from but am finding it difficult to see what happens. Will report back later

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John86
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Re: Dance with me - A request for guidance

Postby John86 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:39 am

OK same for sound - it becomes heard - just the experience. 'self' is not necessary.

but with 'thought' things are not so clear - free will muddies the waters


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