I need a guide please

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Lekha
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I need a guide please

Postby Lekha » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:07 pm

Hi my future guide,

I read Jed McKenna's books and found Non Duality fascinating.

I came across your website two weeks ago and read your book and I understood "Liberation" conceptually. However, being a practicing Hindu (and a long time meditator) I still have questions and I would like a push to enter the Gate.
Thanks and all the best,

Saroj

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Artsys
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Artsys » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:10 am

Hello Saroj,

My name is Art and it would be a privilege to guide you.

There are a few ground rules - the usual - please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least every day.
2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers.
3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

------

then briefly & succinctly outline your expectations for seeing no-self (what we call Liberation here)

-----

Then tell me what "I" / "me" refers to in direct experience. in other words, describe this separate self that you believe you are here to Awaken from. Be brief and direct, and let it reflect the investigation of the now with as little theory as possible.


~Art

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Lekha
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Lekha » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:25 am

Hello Art, thank you for your prompt response. Yes, I agree to follow all the rules.

I expect to be free from (emotional) suffering, and be able live a peaceful life.

I am a human being, a female, mother, grandmother, wife, sister and a friend.

Saroj

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Artsys
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Artsys » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:08 am

Greetings Saroj,

Well, let's begin the journey of liberation.

Much appreciate your idea of expectations, and will have to say that they are right in line with what I was looking for. Set aside the expectations or any mental outcome for now as they're only ideas of the mind for a future self.

The key here and where focus and intent is required, is to use direct experience to see the supposed self.

Direct Experience consists of the following:

1. Thoughts
2. Senses (see, feel, touch, taste, smell
3. The sense of inner aliveness, amness

Utilizing Direct Experience, please look at the following questions and keep it as simple and clear as possible, trying not to speculate or intellectualize the answers.

What comes up when I say "there is no separate entity 'self' in real life at all"?

Is there an "I" or self that experiences experience?

Stay with that and report back what you find.

_Love Art

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Lekha
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Lekha » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:00 am

What comes up when I say "there is no separate entity 'self' in real life at all"?

My first thought was that of resistance - of course there is a separate self - I am an entity that functions on it's own - thoughts, feelings, desires, pain, joy.

But when I looked deeper I realized that since childhood I bought into the concept of my separate self based on the name I was given, my relationship with my parents and siblings (you are our youngest child, you are one of three girls) and the role I played in my environment with that in mind and got very attached to it. All my pains and joy were mine and I either suffered or was joyful. I never questioned it until very recently.
Is there an "I" or self that experiences experience?

No, there is no "I" that experiences experience. I AM alive. Life just is and our experiences are part of that life that flows all around us.

The best - Saroj

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Artsys
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Artsys » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:40 am

Hi Saroj,

Hope all is well.

My first thought was that of resistance - of course there is a separate self - I am an entity that functions on it's own - thoughts, feelings, desires, pain, joy.

Yes, the mind and conditioning over many years of believing the 'story' and thoughts that "I am an entity", creates the 'illusion' of a separate self.

Can you see that prior to thought, there is no "I" and that the "I" thought is added to every perception as a form of ownership?


But when I looked deeper I realized that since childhood I bought into the concept of my separate self based on the name I was given, my relationship with my parents and siblings (you are our youngest child, you are one of three girls) and the role I played in my environment with that in mind and got very attached to it. All my pains and joy were mine and I either suffered or was joyful. I never questioned it until very recently.
Absolutely..!!! No one questions it.

There never was nor is there a 'separate self'. LOOK, is this true?

Look at this "I" that never questioned it. Can you find an "I" apart from thoughts?

No, there is no "I" that experiences experience. I AM alive. Life just is and our experiences are part of that life that flows all around us.
Nice. Things are lining up. Here's a couple of question so we can keep LOOKING in the right direction.

Who is Alive?

Is there a 'you' or us, or just Experience?



let's take a look at thoughts and feelings.

Where do thoughts come from?

When you see a tree or table for example what comes up? What about if you look at your hand?

Let's also look at feelings. If you're sitting or relaxed is there a sensation or a feeling of comfort, discomfort or the texture of the chair? Where do feelings come from? Are they Personal?


~A

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Lekha
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Lekha » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:24 am

Look at this "I" that never questioned it. Can you find an "I" apart from thoughts?
No I can not find an "I" apart from thoughts; before this I thought my thoughts were ME
Who is Alive?
Who is Alive is the ever present, flow of energy that's all around me; I can see that during deep meditation and even now if I am still. Also, the I AM and Being-ness is Alive
Is there a 'you' or us, or just Experience?

Just experience; there's no YOU or US
Where do thoughts come from?
Thoughts just pop up!
When you see a tree or table for example what comes up? What about if you look at your hand?
That is a tree/table and it's real. If I look at my hand the habitual response is it's MY hand. But when I think again: It's A HAND and it's an object and it's REAL.
Let's also look at feelings. If you're sitting or relaxed is there a sensation or a feeling of comfort, discomfort or the texture of the chair? Where do feelings come from? Are they Personal?
Feelings are real, too; they arise with the thought; there is a thought about a certain situation and the feelings follow: this chair is comfortable; my left leg is a little sore (workout with less intensity tomorrow)

Thought: He lied to me - feeling follows- Disgust or sadness(this is habitual); then I look again and this comes up

No, feelings are not personal they just ARE and part of LIFE which just IS and flows.

Thank you, Art; hope I am going in the right direction; if I am not I know you will guide me. Also, please bear with me I am trying to figure out Quote/Unquote function...

Kind regards,

Saroj

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Artsys
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Artsys » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:04 am

No I can not find an "I" apart from thoughts; before this I thought my thoughts were ME
Precisely. The thoughts of are just coming and going. IS that clear?
Who is Alive is the ever present, flow of energy that's all around me; I can see that during deep meditation and even now if I am still. Also, the I AM and Being-ness is Alive
Is there not just Life? The thought "all around me" is contained within Experience, is this true?
Thoughts just pop up!
So, look at the "I" thought. If thoughts come and go, and the "I" thought comes and go. What remains?
That is a tree/table and it's real. If I look at my hand the habitual response is it's MY hand. But when I think again: It's A HAND and it's an object and it's REAL.
Life is Real
Table is Real
Tree is Real
Thoughts are Real
Mind is Real
Hand is Real
Sorrow is Real
Joy is Real

Is "I" Real?
Feelings are real, too; they arise with the thought; there is a thought about a certain situation and the feelings follow: this chair is comfortable; my left leg is a little sore (workout with less intensity tomorrow)
Can you see the web of thought-feeling-thought that the "I" creates to sustain a mirage that is weaved into a belief that one can actually find a drink from?
Thought: He lied to me - feeling follows- Disgust or sadness(this is habitual); then I look again and this comes up
No, feelings are not personal they just ARE and part of LIFE which just IS and flows.
Does LIFE require an "I" to be the Living Experience, That IT IS?

Saroj, the pointing is in the direction of SEEing the truth. The Truth is? FOCUS like an arrow, and see if there is a 'you' apart from thought or feelings in Direct Experience.

Let this marinate, and respond when ready.

~A

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Lekha
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Lekha » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:21 pm

The thoughts of are just coming and going. IS that clear?
Yes, it's very clear that thoughts just come and go.
Is there not just Life? The thought "all around me" is contained within Experience, is this true?
Yes, it's just life; life is flowing; when I said "all around me" it's out of habit...
So, look at the "I" thought. If thoughts come and go, and the "I" thought comes and go. What remains?
What remains is just space
Life is Real
Table is Real
Tree is Real
Thoughts are Real
Mind is Real
Hand is Real
Sorrow is Real
Joy is Real
Is "I" Real?
No, I is not real; it's just imagined
Can you see the web of thought-feeling-thought that the "I" creates to sustain a mirage that is weaved into a belief that one can actually find a drink from?
Yes, it's very clear how our thoughts create a mirage; we buy into the thought created by that mirage; as a result we suffer
Does LIFE require an "I" to be the Living Experience, That IT IS?
No, LIFE does not require an "I"; LIFE just IS; it's present all the time
the pointing is in the direction of SEEing the truth. The Truth is? FOCUS like an arrow, and see if there is a 'you' apart from thought or feelings in Direct Experience.
Thank you, Art; I have seen IT; there's no I/you in Direct Experience;they exist only in an imagined world which is a dream state.

Kind regards,

Saroj

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Artsys
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Artsys » Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:50 am

Very cool....Your responses are confirming the SEEing, so let's push on so there are no lingering doubts...!!! Shall we.
I have seen IT; there's no I/you in Direct Experience;they exist only in an imagined world which is a dream state.
What is IT that has been seen?

To ensure that this is 100% clear, please respond to the following:
Is there anyone or anything Looking to see that there is anyone looking??
Is there a seer apart from the seen?

Absolute clarity on this is essential....!!!

Ask yourself again and again how this illusion is created. How is it created moment to moment and what aspect of direct experience / sense streams come together to create this illusion. Only direct SEEing can lead to Awakening and lead to unbinding.

Are you aware of direct experience? If not, what is aware?

Pay attention to ALL that arises and ask yourself... is ANY of it personal? If so... where is the claimant and what is the reason why it is claimed?

These remaining questions are important to solidify the truth.

What is the illusion of the separate self?

How does it come in to play moment to moment? how is this illusion recreated moment to moment?

Why is the illusion so pervasive as a play in consciousness? as in.. why is it so sticky?

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Almost home.

~A

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Lekha
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Lekha » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:29 am

Hi Art,

Thank you for your quick response.

Just to let you know that I have a busy day tomorrow; I will try to respond in the evening; if I can not do that I will respond on Tuesday.

Thank you,

Saroj

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Artsys
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Artsys » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:34 am

Saroj,

Post when ready. Home is here. In the seeing of the absence of self.

X

~A

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Lekha
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Lekha » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:12 am

Hi Art: Here's my work for today:
What is IT that has been seen?
The IT that has been seen is the TRUTH of the segregated self, the dream world that "we" live in and think it to be real; what has been seen is the suffering that ensues after pursuing the dream state.
Is there anyone or anything Looking to see that there is anyone looking??
Is there a seer apart from the seen?
No, there is no one looking; Looking is happening; the seer and seen are the same; life as we know it is not a noun but a verb. When my grand child was born few months ago looking just happened; she just "tapped into" looking that was there
Ask yourself again and again how this illusion is created. How is it created moment to moment and what aspect of direct experience / sense streams come together to create this illusion. Only direct SEEing can lead to Awakening and lead to unbinding.
The illusion is created by believing in a separate self, the I. And believe it or not both my husband (Liberated) and I have seen/trying to see the Truth forget when we have a disagreement; the most recent being last night...
Are you aware of direct experience? If not, what is aware?
Yes, I am aware of direct experience; I understand that I am not separate but am part of the Universe, manifesting in human form; in other words, "My Father and I are One. ] (this sounds a little stunted, Art, but this is the best I came up with).
What is the illusion of the separate self?
The illusion is believing that I am separate from the Whole; that I function on my own; that I see, I walk, I sleep instead of Seeing is happening, Walking is happening, Sleeping is happening, etc.
How does it come in to play moment to moment? how is this illusion recreated moment to moment?
The illusion comes to play moment to moment because of ego or Maya's hold on us; in any given moment when we forget we are One, the illusion is created by ego which is read to "leap" the moment it gets a chance
Why is the illusion so pervasive as a play in consciousness? as in.. why is it so sticky?
Because ego is lingering like a hungry, stray, animal, ready to pounce...

Thank you and regards,

Saroj

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Artsys
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Artsys » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:43 am

Hi,

So,....elaborate on a few of your responses.
The IT that has been seen is the TRUTH of the segregated self, the dream world that "we" live in and think it to be real; what has been seen is the suffering that ensues after pursuing the dream state.
Is there a segregated self, has there ever been?
No, there is no one looking; Looking is happening; the seer and seen are the same; life as we know it is not a noun but a verb. When my grand child was born few months ago looking just happened; she just "tapped into" looking that was there
Nice...very clear.
Yes, I am aware of direct experience; I understand that I am not separate but am part of the Universe, manifesting in human form; in other words, "My Father and I are One. ] (this sounds a little stunted, Art, but this is the best I came up with).
This just may be the way you're expressing it, but explain what's aware of direct experience. Is there an experiencer or just experience?
The illusion is believing that I am separate from the Whole; that I function on my own; that I see, I walk, I sleep instead of Seeing is happening, Walking is happening, Sleeping is happening, etc.
Nice....Who's the believer?
The illusion comes to play moment to moment because of ego or Maya's hold on us; in any given moment when we forget we are One, the illusion is created by ego which is read to "leap" the moment it gets a chance

Because ego is lingering like a hungry, stray, animal, ready to pounce...
Who forgets they're one? This too sounds like a belief/concept.

Please elaborate on how the illusion comes into play again, and why/how it's so pervasive; not what the 'idea' of illusion is. :)

Hope all is well with home life.

_Love

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Lekha
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Re: I need a guide please

Postby Lekha » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:05 am

Is there a segregated self, has there ever been?
No, there is no segregated self, there never has been; that's the illusion most of us mired in all our lives
This just may be the way you're expressing it, but explain what's aware of direct experience. Is there an experiencer or just experience?
There is no experiencer as there is no self; in the absence of the self only direct experience is happening
Who's the believer?
The believer is the created self that's not aware of the Truth
Who forgets they're one? This too sounds like a belief/concept.
The created self.
Please elaborate on how the illusion comes into play again, and why/how it's so pervasive; not what the 'idea' of illusion is. :)

We have been told by our parents, peers, siblings/society on the whole that I am my thoughts, that I am what I think; I am "I" because of my beliefs, memory, experiences. We live within this illusion, which is pervasive because we don't know the alternative; the segregated self is like the fish that swims in water (Illusion) and does not know it (cliched! I know)

Hope all is well with home life.
All is well at home; thank you for asking, Art.


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