Another old newbie needing help

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Larsie
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Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:14 pm

Another old newbie needing help

Postby Larsie » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:57 pm

Hi,
My name is Lars (58 yoa), I am Dutch, left the NL in 1990, lived 7 years in Switzerland and 15 years in the USA, married 2 children (girl 29 yoa and boy 31). I hope this bio is for starters enough for a "no-body".
Ardent seeker since age 8, Zen, Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc...most important books/writers, bhagavad gita, ashtavakra gita etc shobogenzo zuimonki (Dogen),Zen mind beginner's mind, Tony Parsons (bla, bla).. enough of that..a whole life of analyzing and no realization whatsoever...only pedantic intellectual stuff and incredible laziness (no satsangs, no meditation, navel gazing...nada). For some reason, I know I am either at or under the gate, but need an incredible kick in the ass to get me through (a little gentle please, since I am on the heart transplant list for 3 years now).Sometimes I think I am a hopless case who has to go for another couple of lifetimes :-)
ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!
Lars

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seeyourself
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby seeyourself » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:50 pm

I'm happy to be your guide if you wish.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. Please read.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few agreements before we can begin:

1. You agree to try post at least every day.

2. I will post questions. Do not attempt to answer them with thoughts or memories or stories about your personal life dramas. Set reasoning, computing and trying to understand, aside. Instead, communicate to me the response that you “directly experience” (by “direct experience” we refer to The moment to moment felt experience, or what’s happening right now, conscious knowing.) Here is an article by Rupert Spira on “direct experience”: http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read ... l_there_is
This is another article on direct experience http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html
IOW, do not tell me what you “think” or “believe” or heard in a talk or read about. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself, without mental stories.

3. When you answer, you answer with 110% honestly,.
Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

5. Do not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.

Do you agree to the above?
6. Please learn to use the quote function.

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Larsie
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby Larsie » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:55 pm

Hi Seeyourself (if possible please let me know your name),
YES, i truly wish you to be my guide. I read the LU book and all the other materials you recommended and promise to stay away from all the almost endless daily spiritual data streams. I am very motivated and genuinely want to be a gateless gate crasher.
Thanks so much in advance for doing this!
Lars
P.S. you can be very "direct" if my BS is too much.

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seeyourself
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby seeyourself » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:43 pm

Hi Larsie, My name is Stuart :-)

Expectations of how it should be are the greatest block I've seen to SEEing.
So… I have the following questions for you.
Please tell me as fully as possible what you think liberation is, and what you want or expect from it. What have you learned that it will be like? What do you think needs to happen for it to be real liberation? What apprehensions if any do you have about liberation.

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Larsie
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby Larsie » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:52 pm

Hi Stuart (my real name is Lars, nickname Larsie :-),
110% honest and short...liberation is recognizing of the true Self, i.e. no separation (1w/o a 2nd),i.e. there is no i/me/mine, who has control and can step aside from oneness in order to get united with it......

Expectation is seeing without a seeer and a seen, knowing without a knower and the known...just being in the moment (which is eternal/timeless), thus reducing suffering and just letting life unfold as it happens/appears...effortlessly, spontaneously without the general manager (ego) thinking to have any existence/control. Being, life-ing.....

What I have learned what liberation would be like would take a book, but i am sure you have heard about some concepts like satori, sat chit ananda (being, consciousness, bliss), non-conceptual awareness etc.

Liberation is seeing the illusion/dream just for what it is...just that and for no-one . Guess that is what i am looking for...validation and verification of being close/far /beyond the gate from someone who already crashed the gateless gate, like yourself!

Apprehension only arises, when thought creeps in about being a total dysfunctional nobody, who will be a misfit in any normal society.

If this is still too long-winded, or philosophical, or...then please tell me :-)
Thanks,
Lars

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seeyourself
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby seeyourself » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:56 pm

Hi Lars :-)

Any and all expectation are stories that are believed to be owned by a "someone" ... do you agree? We know that there is a label, a name... "Lars", but is there a "Lars"?

If there is no "someone", for who or what would suffering or apprehension be reduced?
Apprehension arises... but who or what owns it?


Please answer the following:

Looking happens, but is it you doing the looking or is it just happening. That is the question.
In your direct experience look in each sense separately.

Is there an I in hearing or just hearing happening?
Is there an I in tasting, or just tasting?
In touching?
In seeing?
In smelling?
How about in feeling? In thinking?
Take a look and write to me if “I” can be found in experiencing.


Will read your reply tomorrow

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Larsie
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby Larsie » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:24 am

Hi Stuart,
I agree wholeheartedly that "Lars" is a fictional character in the story, which took on this identity as if it is real (read separate) at age 3 or so. So, also this "owner" of expectations/stories/labels is completely fictional...." Lars" is not, never has been and never will be the doer/ owner of anything..including expectations, reduction of suffering etc.

After having gone through e.g. self inquiry etc for a very long time and knowing there is no "me", it is absolutely clear here, that for all the experiences / sensations you mention above, there is only "experiencing happening" and no "I" can be found.

However, the absolutely amazing thing is, that I (just must use the pronoun for communication) never, ever before have talked to anyone about any of this, like " direct experiencing" and that brings incredible joy right here, right now....WOW, what a difference it makes to share this with "someone", who apparently also understands this "open secret" as Tony Parsons calls it!

What I am trying to say Stuart, is that i have read, heard , swallowed , exactly what you are asking "me" to do, i have done for decades in vain and now that i started this "Liberation Unleashed" with genuine intent (comes hell or high water), it apparently works for this lars character!!!!

A profound shift or expansion for nobody......WOW....it was indeed here all the "no-time", so simple and obvious!!!!!

Words cannot describe the gratefulness here!!! THANKS!!!!

"Lars" :-)

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seeyourself
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby seeyourself » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:13 pm

Wow Lars! I loved reading that! I am truly happy for you :-)
Here are some final question:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

6) Anything to add?

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Larsie
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby Larsie » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:30 pm

Hi Stuart,
I already wrote a long reply, which probably got lost in cyberspace :-)
Lars

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seeyourself
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby seeyourself » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:53 pm

Sorry if your reply got lost. Can you answer the questions again?

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Larsie
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby Larsie » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:04 pm

Hi Stuart,
Let me write a response again (if for some reason you did get my previous one, this may not be identical, but very close...:-)) . I will use your numbering for the questions you raised:

1. There is no" me" at all, anywhere, in any way,shape or form....there never was one!

2. The illusion of a separate self starts at about age 2-3..Mom, Dad, brother etc. all become discrete separate entities. Your separateness is confirmed constantly by your name, age, length mentioned by the surrounding people, who have learned it the same way and thus almost 100% of the human race takes this illusion for granted (out of ignorance; not meant pejoratively). So, separation is just a habit, until you have the guts to genuinely question all those believes.

3. It feels FANTASTIC to finally see that there never was any self/separateness...there never was any bonding, so also no need for liberation, because who is there to liberate?! It feels incredibly free for "no-one"! WOW!

4. Someone who is curious to find out what she/he really,really is, I would advise to not bury her/himself in gurus, books, CDs retreats etc, since, now that this character has found out that that is a huge mistake, making one a great seeker, but never a "finder". You have to be brutally honest and have a very genuine intent and then share it all with a friend like yourself (this has taken this character 50 years to figure out, and really find the courage so to speak :-))
Without giving any expectations, i would tell that person that seeing....knowing in the immediacy is the greatest
no-thing in life, which does not need to be acquired/gained...it is right here right now...no self, just ordinary daily awareness, effortlessly, spontaneously, non-conceptually appearing to"no-one".

5. It was very mundane, not gradual...I just realized that there is no owner of anything when i turned on "my" TV set to watch the "news" (whatever that is...apart from keeping everybody deep asleep, believing in this outside, impermanent world...maya is very powerful:-)). So,no blue lights out of my navel,fanfare etc, just realizing in the immediacy that there is no self/separation and only now...seeing-knowing in one whoosh for no-one. Seeing the cosmic joke made me laugh and cry at the same time and is still ongoing. Everything is still the same, yet there is a very subtle shift. It is a miracle, which cannot be put in words, ineffable, never changing reality....pure awareness, which we all are.....as it is...effortlessly, spontaneously arising, absolutely non-conceptual....

6. It is amazing how this sharing worked for this character, so fast...nothing has been gained, it just needed to be pointed to in a way that resonated with this character, who finally got honest, sincere and open. (Still laughing and crying at the same time....very unusual for an introverted scientist).
Words cannot describe how thankful i am to have found you my friend....more in general Ilona and Elena deserve enormous credit for starting this!!!!!

Lars

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seeyourself
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby seeyourself » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:39 pm

Awesome!!! BTW, it took me 50 years also :-)

Ok, I'm just getting some confirmations from other guides. You might get some more questions.
Friend me on Facebook so that we are ready for me to invite you to some after care groups.
https://www.facebook.com/stuart.kaufman.5
I hope that you will consider paying it forward by guiding a few through the gate. You will be amazed by the 'wisdom' that surfaces when guiding. There is some docs on ideas for guiding and Everybody will support and help you while you find your way. A fantastic way to 'deepen'.
You've had a lifetime to practice being a conditioned someone....it's not going away soon or maybe ever.
And the self is not destroyed, just seen through. There is no one here to own it, or be it.
So don't be alarmed that you still feel emotions..
Its all good.
The Facebook groups are there to for your benefit. If you don’t want to join Facebook, or our closed Liberation Unleashed Facebook groups, that is of course up to you. There are after care groups on FB where you can get questions answered and share with people who have been through the gate.
If you decide to, please message me here or on Facebook to let me know what your FB name is!

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Larsie
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Re: Another old newbie needing help

Postby Larsie » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:37 pm

Stuart,
It is all very exciting and frankly a lot for this heart transplant listed character......who???
In any event, i will sign up for facebook and make you my friend...keep in mind that this character is really a dinosaur when it comes to social networking. I do need some after care maybe, but more importantly, i will be delighted to guide people through the gate, only if it is allowed that my responses may not always be so fast, just because of "my" health situation......:-)
I will give you my FB name ASAP.....


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