This way to the gate - anybody?

[vinceschubert]

If you have a burning desire for liberation...
If you are prepared to be 100% honest...
Tell me your story.
Who are you?

[vinceschubert]

Waiting...

[vinceschubert]

Come on, this won't hurt - much!

[vinceschubert]

...just start by telling what your expectations are ?

[lorn]

if this offer is still open, i accept. my expectation is to recognize consistently what is still even in chaos. my expectation is for that to become primary and effortless. i recognized it once during a mescaline trip. there were no stable reference points, but there was stillness, and i was nothing if not that. even though what was happening would have been torture, had i remained embedded in it, it was just what's happening. like a display. i saw it again last february, during a panic attack/flashback. i looked at the terror, saw it as just sensations, not self, then it ceased to matter. it was 'this is just what's happening'. not happening to anyone. but i don''t see it consistently.

from february of last year to may or april, i meditated fairly intensively. first for 5 hours a day, then 10 hours a day for about 3 months until i experienced what seems to have been 'cessation' some time in may. after that, i decided to relax and experiment a little. i have been taking a break since then, but still paying attention almost continuously. i do it now without so much strenuous effort. if i sit still i cannot help but observe sensations. i see nothing but sensations. i see that sensations cannot observe other sensations. i see that no sensation remains stable for any period of time. if there is a self it must be that to which all experience refers and it must be constant. when i observe sensations in the heart, where the feeling 'me' resides, they vibrate alternately with sensations in the head as if they are referring to it. all other bodily sensations do the same, with the head. but the heart is more consistently present than anything else. i know i am not that. the sensations in the head --is that what people call 'the witness'? i don't think i'm that but it's still there.

i see how thoughts create a scaffolding around feelings to stabilize them in support/defense of whatever belief/value is either challenged or validated. i see that what's doing that is not me. it happens automatically. if the feeling is observed, the the scaffolding stops right there. i see that my identity consists entirely of beliefs. am i a belief? i don't know what i am. still, it's not very clear that i am not. that it is impossible to see me doesn't prove that i don't exist. if it's there and it's invisible and does nothing, i suppose it might as well not exist. after typing this it's unclear that i do still assume that i exist. so... why am i not enlightened?

[vinceschubert]

Welcome Lorn, great rant that tells me that you DO have one leg in another dimension (enlightenment) but when you look down you only see one leg so in fear of falling you grab onto anything that might stop you from falling.
First thing to realise is that this is not about knowledge. Nothing you can be told or read will help. (it can hinder in the form of beliefs)
Second thing. There is nothing you can do that will get you there. It is not a matter of effort.

after typing this it's unclear that i do still assume that i exist.

Tell me the thought processes that occur when you make this assumption.

[lorn]

First thing to realise is that this is not about knowledge. Nothing you can be told or read will help. (it can hinder in the form of beliefs)

i understand that belief is an obstacle to investigation. i don't want to believe. i want to know. i stopped reading, more or less, when i started meditating. after that, i read sporadically about techniques. i am not trying to adopt a view. i am trying to undermine the ones that i already have.

Second thing. There is nothing you can do that will get you there. It is not a matter of effort.

what is it a matter of? i don't understand.

after typing this it's unclear that i do still assume that i exist.

Tell me the thought processes that occur when you make this assumption.

what is the assumption? that it's unclear? i don't see where the belief or assumption that i exist is, but i have no conviction that i don't exist. as i typed, it seemed like i went over everything that i thought i might be, or that feels like me, and saw again, not that. that is why i say, 'after typing this it's unclear'. perhaps i'm assuming that i don't exist. i don't know what i'm missing.

[lorn]

when you look down you only see one leg so in fear of falling you grab onto anything that might stop you from falling.

my head feels funny when i read that. i'm going to sit and look at it for a while.

[vinceschubert]

i am trying to undermine the ones that i already have.

The idea is right. You are dropping false beliefs, but it's not something you can DO.

what is it a matter of?

When you LOOK in the right way at the right place, you will SEE what is false and it will be dropped.

what is the assumption?

i didn't ask you what the assumption was, i said, Tell me the thought processes that occur when you make this assumption.
Have another go at it.

[lorn]

i am trying to undermine the ones that i already have.

The idea is right. You are dropping false beliefs, but it's not something you can DO.

what is it a matter of?

When you LOOK in the right way at the right place, you will SEE what is false and it will be dropped.

i don't know what i'm doing, if not looking. how do i find the right way at the right place?

what is the assumption?

i didn't ask you what the assumption was, i said, Tell me the thought processes that occur when you make this assumption.
Have another go at it.[/quote]
i was asking for clarification. i meant, what is it that you are referring to as an assumption? my response followed.

i will try again. "it's unclear that i do still assume that i exist."

if nothing i see is me, then what could be? if i really don't believe any of it, then what? are the things i see now or merely things i remember having seen? do i see them every time i look? what am i missing? what am i not looking at? i'm trying to be honest. i doubt that i don't exist. i also doubt that i do. i can't see clearly either way.

[vinceschubert]

Watch your thought PROCESS as you read the next line...
Try this, Stop DOING the looking and BE the looking.
i can see you wading through thoughts, dissecting them looking FOR someTHING.

[lorn]

Watch your thought PROCESS as you read the next line...
Try this, Stop DOING the looking and BE the looking.
i can see you wading through thoughts, dissecting them looking FOR someTHING.

my response to your instruction was not a thought process, it was a grin.

it is not in thoughts that i look for my self. it is in thoughts that i look for confirmation of what i see. it is in thoughts that uncertainty arises.

[vinceschubert]

it is in thoughts that i look for confirmation of what i see. it is in thoughts that uncertainty arises.

Hi Lorn, you say it is in thoughts that you look for confirmation. Surely confirmation is just more thoughts ?
You say it is in thoughts that uncertainty arises. Isn't uncertainty just more thoughts ?
Tell me about the thoughts called confirmation and uncertainty.

[lorn]

they're nothing. thoughts that support or oppose other thoughts. thoughts don't know or experience anything. yes, they're just more thoughts. i can't think anything i don't already know. thought might embellish it, define it, sprinkle it with commentary, perspectivise it, but it is already what it is. thoughts can't make the sky any bluer or the grass any greener. it's just more sensations like anything else.

[vinceschubert]

Tell me this Lorn, Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?