I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

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iamthat
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I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby iamthat » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:36 am

My name is Al. As Taoists say, naming is the origin of all particular things.

I believe I had the "pop" experience. I see no "me". But I believe I am on the precipice, still holding on to guilt and fear, which I know are not real, but I'm not sure I'm ready for the final leap.

I first became involved in studying Taoism, Vedanta, Joseph Campbell and Zen in college. Then a series of crazy events occurred, which made life more real, and although I got a graduate degree in psychology, which has proved useful in this thing, I stopped my searching for 10 years.

10 years later, I began re-reading my old books, began daily mindful meditation, joined a meditation group.

I began listening to Alan Watts's recordings, everything I could get my hands on. This pushed me to leverage what I couldn't deny from Alan Watts's recordings, with my understanding of psychology, systems theory, and physics.

One day, everything changed. I can't remember the moment at all. I just can read a journal where one day I said "Everything has changed."

I see myself now as a collection of processes, with no specific beginning and end. What is Al is really meaningless outside of his environment, and where his environment begins and Al ends is arbitrary. Not only do I believe this, but I can't deny the feeling of it anymore. I've become incredibly affable, spontaneous, without fear of death. I no longer drink alcohol, as it doesn't seem to give me that improvement in mood anymore. I feel like I'm floating off the ground most days. Stress doesn't stick. Thoughts can stick, for a while, but eventually float away.

However, I have one fear and area of guilt I'm holding on to. I'm about to get married, and my fiance does not share my understanding of things. It's been challenging - on the one hand, she loves that I am so content and spontaneous, but she is worried about how I've changed.

Yes, there's nothing to do about it, things will happen and work out on their own, it will be seen. But it's like I'm over a giant precipice, holding onto one last rock, not sure if I want to dive in completely.

Thank you for reading my story, and if a guide is interested, I'd value conversing.

Al

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cosmiK
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby cosmiK » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:35 am

Hey Al,

I will be your guide.

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least every day.
2. I will post questions, and you will answer them.
3. When you answer you answer 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, you answer from your direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

----

So.. first question. Is there a "You" or "I" anywhere, in any form at all? can there ever be?

with Love.

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iamthat
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby iamthat » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:19 am

Hello CosmiK. Thank you for writing with me. I agree to your ground rules, for sure.
So.. first question. Is there a "You" or "I" anywhere, in any form at all? can there ever be?

with Love.
When someone looks at me and says "Hey Al", I know who they speaking to. "You" and "I" are conveniences we use. In that sense they exist. When I look for an "I", I feel hands, I feel toes, I "hear" thoughts. The organization, minus the surroundings is called the "You", or "I" could say "I". Is that "I" meaningful? No.

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cosmiK
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby cosmiK » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:15 am

Hey Al,

thanks for your response.
In that sense they exist. When I look for an "I", I feel hands, I feel toes, I "hear" thoughts.
If "You" and "I" are just conveniences, then how is feeling felt, sound heard, and thoughts observed?

LOOK in direct experience, just notice, and answer in simple and plain words.

with Love.

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iamthat
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby iamthat » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:49 pm

If "You" and "I" are just conveniences, then how is feeling felt, sound heard, and thoughts observed?
with Love.
Leaving all scientific definitions I have been taught behind, feelings appear, sounds appear, thoughts appear. How are thoughts observed? It just happens.

I can put earpulgs in my ears, but then I will still hear sounds of my heart beating. I can close my eyes, but eventually I will see streaks of light, or dark. I can try to stop my thoughts, but they just happen.

Thank you,

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cosmiK
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby cosmiK » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:26 am

Hey Al,

so... in direct experience, is there an observer or watcher? if so, is this "I" or "me"?

are they your thought?
are you the thinker of thoughts?
can you think and choose a thought?

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iamthat
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby iamthat » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:18 am

so... in direct experience, is there an observer or watcher? if so, is this "I" or "me"?
There is something that is watching these hands type. Something observing them type. I don't believe this is really "I" or "me", but if someone said "Al, your nose is bleeding", I would find myself immediately checking my nose in a mirror to see where to wipe the blood.
are they your thought?
are you the thinker of thoughts?
can you think and choose a thought?
They are thoughts. Are the mine? I'd say no. But if someone took "my" wallet, I would get mad, even though I don't believe it is "my" wallet. It's a wallet, that has come to be in "my" possession. My thoughts appear, are not "mine", but "I" am the one who hears them.

While I am not the thinker of thoughts, but thoughts appear, I can write "thinking of an elephant in a pink tutu, and a picture appears that I am somewhat focused upon of an what would appear to be an elephant in a pink tutu.

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iamthat
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby iamthat » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:56 am

Taking another chance to provide direction feedback for your questions:

In direct experience, there is just the experience, and observation itself is an experience. We can't experience and think about the experience at the same time, or at least not when we are completely into the experience.

I experience thoughts. I experience the thinking of thoughts. Are they me? Is the water I drink me once it passes my lips? Only in the sense of that it is convenient to say so.

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cosmiK
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby cosmiK » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:30 am

Hey Al,
There is something that is watching these hands type. Something observing them type. I don't believe this is really "I" or "me", but if someone said "Al, your nose is bleeding", I would find myself immediately checking my nose in a mirror to see where to wipe the blood.
LOOK again...
is there an "observer" that observes "everything else"?
or
is there an experience-er that experiences Experience?
or
is there a perceiver that perceives?

http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html

Check out this article about direct experiential investigation.
They are thoughts. Are the mine? I'd say no. But if someone took "my" wallet, I would get mad, even though I don't believe it is "my" wallet. It's a wallet, that has come to be in "my" possession. My thoughts appear, are not "mine", but "I" am the one who hears them.
Can you find this "I" or "me" in direct experience?

Is there an "I" that gets mad? or just arising emotion?

Is it "your" wallet? or just a wallet with a thought "my wallet"

Where is the "I" that hears thoughts?
While I am not the thinker of thoughts, but thoughts appear, I can write "thinking of an elephant in a pink tutu, and a picture appears that I am somewhat focused upon of an what would appear to be an elephant in a pink tutu.
All of this happens... but is there a "You" who writes, who acts, who does, and who controls? can you find this in direct experience?

And remember... these pointers may be repetitive, but it is about pointing you to return attention to naked direct experience and seeing through any separate such "I" or "me" or agent or doer or controller. This is how most of the process goes. So keep answering honestly from experience, and writing from that place. Do not worry too much about placing I and me in "quotation marks". If there is a sense of "I" or "me" there, then just write that naturally.
In direct experience, there is just the experience, and observation itself is an experience. We can't experience and think about the experience at the same time, or at least not when we are completely into the experience.
Is there anyone that experiences? then suddenly later thinks about experience? Is there someone that can be 'completely in experience' and 'not in experience'?
Basically...
there is Experiencing, or Life... and thoughts arise, sensations arise, feelings arise, all arise in and as Experiencing, in and as Life, but is there a separate 'You' that is watching all of this?
I experience thoughts. I experience the thinking of thoughts. Are they me? Is the water I drink me once it passes my lips? Only in the sense of that it is convenient to say so.
Pinpoint and describe this "I" that experiences thoughts in direct experience.

Very excited to continue this investigation with you,

with Love.

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iamthat
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby iamthat » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:20 pm

You're right, there is no I, outside a placement for convenience.
LOOK again...
is there an "observer" that observes "everything else"?
or
is there an experience-er that experiences Experience?
or
is there a perceiver that perceives?
There is observation, there is experience, there is perception. These actions, as well as feeling, can be
processed together. The individual threads of each of these, processed together, gives an impression
of the I. Everything in life is simply a pattern of individual things weaved together. The I is simply a
weave of these individual feelings, thoughts, emotions, perceptions.
Is there an "I" that gets mad? or just arising emotion?

Is it "your" wallet? or just a wallet with a thought "my wallet"

Where is the "I" that hears thoughts?
There is rising emotion, intertwined with thoughts. The emotion may be anger, and the thoughts may be "don't get worried about losing the wallet, things happen." They create a pattern which is felt as the I.
Is there anyone that experiences? then suddenly later thinks about experience? Is there someone that can be 'completely in experience' and 'not in experience'?
Basically...
there is Experiencing, or Life... and thoughts arise, sensations arise, feelings arise, all arise in and as Experiencing, in and as Life, but is there a separate 'You' that is watching all of this?
There is experience. Then thoughts about the experience that has happened.
The thoughts are the watching. There is no independent watcher, who watches these things happen. There may be a though "I am angry" and another thought "I am aware that I am angry", but this is just a chain of thoughts, which can be intermixed with feelings, with sensations in the body which are experienced.

Pinpoint and describe this "I" that experiences thoughts in direct experience.
Al is a name that I was given as a child. It is a title. I was told that I was a person. If I was told that I was simply a combination of experiences, sensations, feelings, thoughts, I would never doubt this to be true.

In direct experience. I search for the I, and look at my hands -> seeing.
I bring back memories in the mind -> thoughts
I think about my fears - feelings
I stomp my feet - sensations
I look in the mirror - seeing

Last night I didn't sleep very well. So this morning I just kind of sloughed about. I didn't feel like an anyone. Then I had some tea, which stimulated my brain and brought in more thoughts, then I felt more like a me.

This all is what I've experienced.

Thank you Cosmic,
Al

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cosmiK
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby cosmiK » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:38 am

Hey Al,

You're doing great.
Everything in life is simply a pattern of individual things weaved together. The I is simply a
weave of these individual feelings, thoughts, emotions, perceptions.
LOOK again at this. We can divide, with thought, Experience in to thoughts, sensations, etc, but are they actually separate individual 'things' that are weaved together? Is there any actual separation in direct experience?
Last night I didn't sleep very well. So this morning I just kind of sloughed about. I didn't feel like an anyone. Then I had some tea, which stimulated my brain and brought in more thoughts, then I felt more like a me.
There are different experiences, and some can be seen as "less of a me" and others "more of a me", but we are always LOOKing Deeply to check if there is an actual "me" or "I" or self here. This simple recognition destroys the binding illusion.

Okay... let's check out another angle.

1) get up... walk slowly...
- is there a "You" that walks?
- or just walking?

2) move your hands up and down...
- is there a controller moving the hands?
- just the movement?

3) pick 2 objects... now slowly try to choose from them
- is there a "chooser"? is there a "choice" ?


with Love.

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iamthat
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby iamthat » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:58 pm

LOOK again at this. We can divide, with thought, Experience in to thoughts, sensations, etc, but are they actually separate individual 'things' that are weaved together? Is there any actual separation in direct experience?
No, there is no separation in direct experience. It simply is experience.
There are different experiences, and some can be seen as "less of a me" and others "more of a me", but we are always LOOKing Deeply to check if there is an actual "me" or "I" or self here. This simple recognition destroys the binding illusion.
I understand there is no I, but it sure feels like there is one there today.
1) get up... walk slowly...
- is there a "You" that walks?
- or just walking?


There is walking, and then thoughts might appear, and the walking fades to the background. Then the thoughts fade and the sensation of walking comes back.

2) move your hands up and down...
- is there a controller moving the hands?
- just the movement?


There is just movement, but there is a feeling that I am moving my hands.

3) pick 2 objects... now slowly try to choose from them
- is there a "chooser"? is there a "choice" ?
There is no choice, there is just what happens. I'm still not certain if their is a "chooser". There is a question, which results in me picking up two objects and weighing them. And then there is one object.
There is not a chooser, but I'm pretty ambivalent about that.

Thank you CosmiK,

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cosmiK
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby cosmiK » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:06 am

Hey Al,
No, there is no separation in direct experience. It simply is experience.
Right. Let us introduce the analogy of a Dream, and let us compare it waking Life shall we.

In a Dream, do you see that even if there was a 1st person character that it is NOT the character that is doing, looking, thinking? Do you see that the dream character or any characters has ZERO awareness and it is ONLY the indivisible Dream that IS?

Then take Life. Life differs from a dream because of an undeniable sense of continuity, and a SENSE of solidity and "realness".
I understand there is no I, but it sure feels like there is one there today.
The "I" that you refer to is just the appearance and sense of that 1st person character, Al... yet can you see that it isn't Al that has awareness? can you see Al is just another appearance in Life? can you see that Life doesn't need a separate "I" to be aware of it, but is aware of itself?

The "I" that you refer to may also point to the a sense of aliveness and existence, and that is not a problem. It is a key function of Life. Yet this sense of aliveness does not mean that there is a separate character Al that exists, it points to Life itself, with all it's manifold expressions (which are never separate) including the character Al.
2) move your hands up and down...
- is there a controller moving the hands?
- just the movement?

There is just movement, but there is a feeling that I am moving my hands.
So look in direct experience and see if you can find this "I". Is it just another sensation that was usually labelled "I"? There is a constant shifting seamless Experiencing, and we identify some of it as "I" and the rest as "everything else", but is there an ACTUAL "I" there that DOES?

Let's go back to the dream analogy. Does a dream character actually DO anything? Does the dream character actually MOVE the hand?
There is no choice, there is just what happens. I'm still not certain if their is a "chooser". There is a question, which results in me picking up two objects and weighing them. And then there is one object.
There is not a chooser, but I'm pretty ambivalent about that.
The 'chooser' is just a repackaging of the individual or "I". Look in direct experience and see if there is anyone or anything choosing, or doing ANY of it?

http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... rship.html

Here is an article on Doership. Hope it helps clarify.

Your doing great.

with Love.

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iamthat
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby iamthat » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:28 pm

Thank you CosmiK,

Driving home last night, there was driving.
Waking up this morning, there was clothing, showering, teeth brushing. There were thoughts about these activities. Thoughts about the future, and past.
Driving to work there was driving.
At work there was procrastinating, working, thoughts about working.
Right now there is writing, thoughts about writing.

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cosmiK
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Re: I would enjoy a conversation with a guide

Postby cosmiK » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:09 am

Hey Al,

thanks for that response, but there were a few key questions in that last post - please use the quote function to answer each of them individually from direct experiencing.

with Love.


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