Requesting guiding from Jowate

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Florence
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Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby Florence » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:13 am

Hello - is this it?

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jowate
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby jowate » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:52 am

Hi F / Pt

This is it - please write down: What are your hopes / expectations from doing this direct pointing?

JWT

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Florence
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby Florence » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:43 pm

Hi again, sorry if this is a bit long -
I really get the fact that there’s no self, no me in control of things – it’s very clear that there are just thoughts, feelings, movement of various kinds that I label “me”. I used to think there was something to get rid of, but it’s obvious now that there is no choice about keeping it or letting it go – it’s not there. For a while things have felt different, I’m not so identified with whatever comes up, I see it’s all conditioning and habit – although there seems to be an awful lot of that. It’s not just intellectual anymore – I try to imagine how I felt before and I can’t. When I’m on my own or around people who have experienced this kind of thing I feel pretty confident that I wouldn’t be able to go back to how I was before. But I feel like I’m lugging around a great bag full of sticky traps where I get all caught up in despondency and even though I know that’s not me either, there’s no me to own despondency (or conceit or jealousy) any more than there is when everything feels ok, even though I know that, it’s hard not to act as if it’s mine. I can sit with that too, and eventually the attempt to identify with it falls apart. But it takes a while sometimes, and often I’m too busy reacting to people to be aware of what’s happening, and a lifetime of doubt and other unpleasant stuff piles in, which feels overwhelming and exhausting.
Anyway – where am I going with this? I feel like I’m holding myself back from seeing what I know and feel is true and I don’t know why. After you told me what happened to you, and since reading gateless gatecrashers I’m more confident and clear than ever that there’s no me to hold on to, but knowing there’s nothing there doesn’t seem to stop the gripping – so I guess what I hope for is that someone will help me trust that I can relax my fingers, if that makes any sense at all.
I’m pretty sure you can help. xo

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jowate
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby jowate » Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:45 pm

It looks like the core belief in ‘self’ has (almost) gone, but there is still some doubt to be seen through. The collapsing of self-view together with doubt and belief is the whole thing. Doubt and belief (any superstitious, credulous or unsubstantiated belief) are two mental strategies that support the self-view, so when it’s clear that they have gone as well as the belief in self, ‘job done’. It’ll be clear when this has happened, and it probably won’t be any big deal.

We need to home in on what is supporting this doubt – it’s linked in with beliefs around what’s believed to be ‘selfing’ behaviour, and also the emotional holding or contraction that supports the doubt. You see it already – you just kind of need to see that you see it, really.

So I think it’ll be beneficial to go through the direct pointing, as in the course of responding to that, what’s ‘not clear’ should become clear, and then can be resolved. So really look, again, and write a full response, even if it’s what is already ‘known’.

There is no ‘self’, no ‘me’, no ‘I’, and there never has been. The sense of ‘self’ and what appears to be ‘selfing’ behaviour have always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’.

So what are the feelings, thoughts and emotions that come up in relation to this? Look / focus carefully and write it down as clearly as you can.

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Florence
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby Florence » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:02 am

Back home, sorry for the delay while in transit. I'm very tired and possibly incoherent but wanted to write something because I love what you said - particularly this bit -
There is no ‘self’, no ‘me’, no ‘I’, and there never has been. The sense of ‘self’ and what appears to be ‘selfing’ behaviour have always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’.
Reading this I felt really spacious, and then a reaction of - that can't be true - what has held it together? Then the answer - nothing - it never was held together - that's the illusion. So the illusion held it together? No, there is nothing to hold together and nothing to hold it, just thoughts and feelings creating an illusion of something real.
..have always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’
This really hit something - gave me chills - the good kind. All the thoughts about how 'I' was and am and will be, the constant comparing and fear of being left behind, come from the same fiction that keeps slipping in - that there is or was something to get rid of.
Another thought - so what will I do then? Nothing, I never have done anything - it's not that I'm out of a job suddenly. It does feel that something doesn't need to be done anymore, but there never was an 'I' doing it or having it done, just perception, actions based on a view.
I used to try to believe, and act as if, some of my toys were alive, and attached a lot of emotion to them, so I was/am sad that they were thrown out. It's hard to separate Larry the Lamb from the emotions associated with him - it seemed they were part of him, and it feels like a loss. But he didn't die, he was never alive. Sadness might arise but it's not mine and not Larry's. There's no effort needed to see that, no rejection, just clarity. Maybe I've been afraid of rejecting my self? It's not a rejection, there is nothing to reject and no-one to reject it, I can act as if something exists if I choose, but why make that effort when there's nothing missing that needs to be created.
I think that's all for now.
love,

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Florence
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby Florence » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:20 pm

We need to home in on what is supporting this doubt – it’s linked in with beliefs around what’s believed to be ‘selfing’ behaviour, and also the emotional holding or contraction that supports the doubt.
Woke up feeling miserable so was able to see this in action. There's a particular misery that I seem to have assumed is me without question - it, or something like it, seems to happen after retreats or any minor insight. So I welcomed the miserable feeling and tried to find a me in there. There are sensations, vibrations and - I don't know - feels like fear, an anxious alertness, waiting for something to pass. So I'm turning to that - it's very familiar and really feels like it has something to do with a me but I'm remembering that this is what you were talking about -
the sense of ‘self’ and what appears to be ‘selfing’ behaviour have always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’
. I'm not sure why this is so crucial, but it seems to counteract a habit of weighing things up - the misery (or whatever) seems to have such weight - it appears like the grown-up in the conversation, the experienced one, but there is no weight or accumulation of experience in this - it has always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing 'I'. No exceptions, no last straws, no yes, but, what about. All just one-off thoughts and feelings, or clusters of thoughts and feelings, depending on conditions, not depending on an 'I'.
Thank you for this - it definitely feels liberating. Will keep looking. xo

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jowate
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby jowate » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:59 pm

Hi 'F',

So this is excellent to read (sorry for the delay). You seem to be looking in every corner.
there is nothing to hold together and nothing to hold it, just thoughts and feelings creating an illusion of something real.

That’s exactly it. The illusion can still be there, but once it’s known as an illusion, it’s empty and carries no emotional weight. And the only thing to get rid of is the view that there’s something to be got rid of. It’s very simple, but completely thoroughgoing.

I like your ‘it's not that I'm out of a job suddenly’, and your reflections on Larry the Lamb. Apposite. Also that comment, ‘why make that effort when there's nothing missing that needs to be created?’ ... exactly.

Also very good the way you describe questioning the misery in the second post. ‘Heavy’ emotions do seem to carry a lot of conviction about being ‘my self’ - that weight of ‘authority’ you describe. Depression is much the same. Well, all strong ‘negative emotions’. So seeing through that is pretty important and weighty in itself – if those views can be known as imposters, you’re more or less there. Or there, period.

So do continue to look, and respond to this from the perspective of looking (one of the ‘closing questions’): Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

Love, T. xo

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Florence
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby Florence » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:05 am

You're back! Hope you had a great weekend.
Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
No, there isn’t. And there never has been. At some point it became very simple. The feeling that there was something to get rid of, or something to lose, seems to have completely disappeared. That was a big deal last week and now it seems normal. There are bubbles of reaction and judgment drifting around and the odd flurry or scuffle – but there’s no me there. It’s always been like this, there was never anyone in charge. It’s all fascinating - ordinary and huge at the same time. Not worrying anymore, not hoping either. Maybe some comparing - am I wiser now?, but that's just another amusing thought. There's some excitement, and then there isn't. Things, thoughts, feelings don't seem to hang around for their labels to stick, making it quite hard to communicate but no longer particularly trippy - getting used to it I guess.
Someone in a meeting complained that I hadn’t done something the other day and I just thought – oh. It may not sound like much, but really getting the fact that there isn’t and never was a me to defend has simplified everything. Things come and go, and thoughts of what to do about them come and go too, but they seem so flimsy now I know they’re not me.
I used to think (I think) that this and other teachings were about something I should do, and would be able to do when I’d worked on my “self”. Now I can see they’re not opinions about how things should be, they’re descriptions of how things are, pointing to how things are. I guess this is obvious – it all is really.
I was thinking about your “it’s canceled” exercise. I was annoyed that my make-believe future was canceled even though I could see how ridiculous that was. It was never there to be canceled. Same with me. It never existed, doesn’t exist and won’t in the future, it’s not something that comes and goes, or changes in any way – it’s not there. It’s not deceased (not even a dead parrot).
That’s probably enough for now.
Thanks for being who you are/not.
lots of love, PT

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jowate
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby jowate » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:11 pm

Excellent! Really, really excellent! So simple, isn't it. I'm in a cafe somewhere between Aberdeen and Dundee, so this is brief, but I'm thrilled and will respond more fully when I've got somewhere with an internet connection that's no a cafe on the A90!

You might like to write your responses to the other concluding questions - I can't find them at the moment, but they're in the book. If you can't find them, I'll send them later.

Onwards to Dundee (and beyond)!

Much love, T. xoxo

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Florence
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby Florence » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:03 am

Having fun in Dundee?
I think these are the questions - I'll try:
Explain in detail what the self is and how it works
It's an illusion! What I called self feels like a tension, an effort to see something, like when I'm meeting someone at the airport and I try to make people of all shapes and sizes look like the person I'm looking for. Then I see the person and relax - of course, how could I mistake the other people for him/her. The relaxing realization in this case is that there is nothing there at all. I've mistaken thoughts, feelings, sensations for a self, seen patterns where there aren't any, seen a self in the very effort to believe it's there when it isn't, in the very misery that is caused by the effort to solidify it. So many thoughts, conditions and habits seeming to say look, I'm over here, that it's hard not to try and see it, and to think something’s wrong if I can't, so I kept trying, and reinforced the illusion.
how does it feel to be liberated
I had a lucid dream of flying when I was in Scotland - I was being swirled around a room and decided to enjoy it and fly, flew out of the window and down to the sea in Brighton - I feel a bit like that - I keep waking up in the middle of thoughts and remembering they're just thoughts and the entanglement drops away. Nothing stands up to that awareness. It feels like freedom, or awareness, or love - the usual things. There's a lot of practice to do if I want to live well in this world, but it doesn't seem like work when there's no self to improve or to doubt. I don’t even know what there is to doubt now I know there isn’t a self. No doubt, no need to try to be any particular way. I feel so relieved, nothing is missing.
how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you
I’d probably just recommend reading the book or coming on one of your retreats, or look something up to tell them. Or I’d try to get them to look. Or I’d say it’s like realizing you’ve been paranoid all your life and now you’re not, and things and people aren’t threatening anymore, seeing that there’s nothing to be threatened. Like a video when the “horror” music switches to something relaxing – it all looks different. Only not quite that.
what is real?
I don’t know.
Not me. Sensations. Stuff coming and going.
Hmm. I think that’s about all. Doesn’t quite get at it somehow but I find it hard to explain.
Anyway, love you and on to my next meeting.
xoxoxo

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jowate
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby jowate » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:01 pm

Great! It very much looks to me like you're there/ here/ nowhere at all! I'll pass it by a few others on the forum, if that's ok with you, but what you write there speaks for itself, to me. (Back in Wales now, by the way) xxooxxoo

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Florence
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Re: Requesting guiding from Jowate

Postby Florence » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:33 pm

Oh. Good. Thanks! If you were here right now I'd give you a big hug. Will be interested in what they have to say either way. I'm off to Mexico tomorrow morning - they don't have internet at the retreat center - how quaint is that? So it may be Nov 12 before I'm back on line. I'll try to survive.
I can't tell you have much I appreciate what you do. love you more than ever.
PT xoxoxoxoxo


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