looking for guidance

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martina
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looking for guidance

Postby martina » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:41 pm

Hello. I am looking for a guide to show the illusion of self. I have read non duality books for the last 3 to 4 years and understand that there is no me. I cannot find an "I" anywhere when I look. However, I need some help to really SEE this and get rid of all doubts. I would so appreciate some help. Thanks.

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Metta777
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Re: looking for guidance

Postby Metta777 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:47 pm

Hi Martina, Can you express your doubts specifically, so they can be looked at. Thank You, Metta777
"This too shall pass"

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martina
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Re: looking for guidance

Postby martina » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:11 pm

Thank you for responding, I am so grateful.

I know that there is a feeling that I am here. But all thoughts of "I" are just thoughts that arise after the actual experience. For instance "I heard". But really, hearing just happened. Nobody did it. It just happened.

For some reason, I just do not feel that I have crossed the finish line of seeing through the self. Sometimes I get caught up in the story of "Martina". I expect that when this is seen for real, maybe there will be no doubts. Something just does not feel as if it has clicked.

I am tired of seeking. I want to stop and just SEE this. I am confident that with your help it can happen. Thank you again for your time.

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby Metta777 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:28 pm

" I get caught up in the story of Martina"...Who is it that is getting caught up in the story? Who is I ? "thoughts of "I" are just thoughts " Who is thinking the thoughts? What are thoughts? " I expect" Who is expecting? What are the expectations?
Just some questions I thought might be helpful. Let's communicate at least once a day if that is good for you. Warm Regards, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby Metta777 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:35 pm

P.S. try to answer the questions as specifically as you can and we will go over them. Thank You, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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martina
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Re: looking for guidance

Postby martina » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi Metta. I thought I just sent a post, but just looked and it is not there. I will try again!! I don't know what happened...
Who is it that is getting caught up in the story? Who is I ?
O.K. There is no I getting caught up in the story, because I've looked and seen that there is no I. There is just attention to a story. That's all. No I. The I doesn't exist (only as a thought) so what could get caught up? Ha ha... that is funny. There is just attention to the story of a body/mind labeled Martina, and thoughts, emotions, and feelings arising as well. This is all just noticed.
thoughts of "I" are just thoughts " Who is thinking the thoughts?
Thoughts of I are just thoughts because I is a word (thought) pointing to nothing that can be found. Nobody is thinking the thoughts. Thoughts just happen. Experiencing happens, and then thought comes in and talks about it with the word "I". For instance, take the thought "I see a dog." Actually, there is just seeing of something that the mind labels as a dog. There is really no I that sees, it is just a description after the fact. In reality seeing a dog just happened. Nobody "did" that. It would be better to say "there was seeing a dog"... no I involved. In fact, even the word "dog" is just a label that the mind uses to call this living creature that is appearing.
What are thoughts?
Thoughts are statements that come and go. They just appear and disappear. They try to describe and make sense of what is being experienced. They come and go without anyone there controlling them. If they are believed, they can spin on and on and cause worry and suffering. If a thought is noticed and not believed, it seems to drop back into the nothingness where it came. Sometimes thought attaches a label of I in front of what is experienced, and it seems as if there is an actual entity there that did it, but upon inspection no entity is there.

" I expect" Who is expecting? What are the expectations?

Now when I look at it ("I" am not really looking... ha ha... it is just being looked at!), when that was typed there was a reference to the imaginary I. "I expect..." Each time it is examined, this I is seen to be empty. There is no entity there. It seems like it is a belief that keeps creeping into language and thought. It is something that is believed in... but by who? There is nobody to even believe in it! Yet I keep saying "I" like there is someone there. This habit is seen. Is the answer to just keep looking every time the I thought appears, and see over and over that there is no "I"? This could go on forever, or maybe it wouldn't.

As for expectations, I just want to see clearly. I know that an experience that comes and goes is not it. I was going to say that I've had a couple of amazing experiences, but there is the I again! A couple of experiences happened here that were wonderful. They brought direct experience and insight... for instance, there is one essence that comprises everything, and all is life unfolding... but the mind came in and is seeking for understanding through books about what took place in real experience. It is known that the mind can't touch this... actually thoughts are appearances that appear in this one life. Thoughts are seen and they can't see anything. Seen by who or what? Just seen. That's all I can come up with. Who is this "I" that can come up with anything? There is no I... it is not there. Everything seems to go in circles.

What is the next step? I'm not even sure what to ask. Do all questions come from the assumed imaginary self?

Thank you, as always for your kind help. Life helping life.

Sincerely, Martina

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby Metta777 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:29 pm

"I just want to see clearly." "I know that an experience that comes and goes is not it. " Who is the " I " that wants to know? What are memories? What is a direct experience ? You don't exist, you are just a story you tell yourself which brings up labels you have attached to certain objects, emotions and feelings. You don't exist in the past, you never existed and can't and do not exist in the future. A stream of fives senses constantly inputting information, is that you? Are the senses " I " ? "I'm not even sure what to ask." Who would be asking? "there is one essence that comprises everything" , good. Your doing well, go deeper. Dig in. Do past experiences matter if you don't exist? What feeling is there when you hear that? :-) Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby martina » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:51 pm

" Who is the " I " that wants to know?
That is the magical question! When I look for an I, there isn't one. Only blank. Looking is happening. So is the imaginary I just a story that has been created by thoughts and memories? And every morning when the body wakes up it is just "remembered"? Sometimes I feel this way. When I first wake up, for a few seconds I know nothing, I don't know who I am or where I am. And then a "download" of memory seems to take place, and my story appears. If this "download" didn't take place, I wouldn't know who I was. There would just be eyes opening, and experiencing happening. No story of Martina, no I. There is nothing but experiencing until thoughts and memory kick in...
What are memories?
Thoughts and images coming up of a supposed past. But really memories always happen now as thoughts of the past. This is seen. There is never direct evidence of a past, except through history books and things which appear now but are about the "supposed" past. The strange thing about memories is that others seem to have the same ones... I guess that's what keeps the story believable. But the actual past can never really be found. Same for the future. The future exists in thoughts about it. Those thoughts always happen now. So I get that there's really no past and future, it's somehow all happening now. But it's a strange concept...
What is a direct experience?
It is something that was actually experienced by the senses with this body. Not a concept heard about and believed. That would be intellectual understanding.
You don't exist, you are just a story you tell yourself which brings up labels you have attached to certain objects, emotions and feelings. You don't exist in the past, you never existed and can't and do not exist in the future. A stream of fives senses constantly inputting information, is that you? Are the senses " I " ?
No, looking, tasting, touching, hearing all happen but they are not I. Thought says "I look", "I hear", etc. I is just a word added on by thought. The real I seems to be the knowing of all of this. (But you might say there's no I, so how can there be a "real" I?) But something is "knowing" seeing, feeling, hearing, etc. Knowing knows all experience from the point of view of this body, and I assume from all other bodies as well (although this is a guess). None of this could happen without the knowing.

Going back to waking up in the morning, the eyes open, and first there is an awareness... maybe even before the eyes open. The knowing or awareness then experiences. Seeing, touching, thoughts, memories, etc. happen.
"I'm not even sure what to ask." Who would be asking?
Questions or statements come up and are referred to by an "I". Nobody is there behind it, a statement is made or a question is typed. It all just happens. No me. But there is confusion, and then a thought, "I am confused". There is really only confusion occurring. Then there is a belief that there is an I that it is all happening to. This is all understood, but something still feels stuck. I guess that "stuckness" is just a feeling, no I.
"there is one essence that comprises everything" , good. Your doing well, go deeper. Dig in
.

Yes, that is a memory happening now of an experience. It was seen that all is of one essence. Life is. No actual death, just appearances coming and going. And that is just a memory coming into awareness right now. It is not actually happening right now.
Do past experiences matter if you don't exist? What feeling is there when you hear that? :
Yes, let's look... If there is no I then it is just an image (memory) arising... interesting. But it seemed to mean so much at the time. There was a feeling of joy and aliveness. (and that just came and went after a while as well). There is a recognition now that the experience was claimed as personal, and this adds to the personal story. This happened to ME... When really it just happened.

What feeling is there when you hear you don't exist? Blank. Then a touch of fear. Then, wanting to really, really get this so that it is so undeniable, and not wavering back and forth. The understanding now seems to take effort, it does not feel light, does not feel easy.

Thank you again for your time Metta.

Martina

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby Metta777 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:52 pm

"When I look for an I, there isn't one. Only blank. Looking is happening." Very good! there is no I, until the story ,with the story comes attachments of feelings, emotions, memories. Just something to think about. When police take witness accounts of an event that just happened, every witness will have a slightly different story. If the same thing happened and all saw the same exact thing, why are their memories different? Are memories the "I " ,are they real ? Or a story told?
Good job! "It is something that was actually experienced by the senses with this body." But everyone does not experience the same thing. Who is the " Knower?" If the "I " doesn't exist. Blank and fear are just feelings, they are not you. Look behind the fear, deeper, what is there to fear if you don't exist? Go into the "blank", what about the blank is fearful? Again, who is the knower? There is no " I".
There is no timetable, and no one can make mistakes, because we don't exist. :-) It takes as long as it takes. It is going very well. Warm Regards, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby martina » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:46 pm

When police take witness accounts of an event that just happened, every witness will have a slightly different story. If the same thing happened and all saw the same exact thing, why are their memories different? Are memories the "I " ,are they real ? Or a story told?
What comes up is that a memory is a recreation of an event in the mind but it is filtered through the individual body/mind. Each body/mind sees it and remembers it differently according to their conditioning. Memories cannot be the "I". They are not real because they appear in the mind and you can't feel them or see them in reality. It is seen that they are projections of the mind. So, memories are a story told. But wasn't the actual event that memory tries to describe real? It seemed to happen...
Who is the " Knower?" If the "I " doesn't exist.
Well, looking again, it is seen that knowing appears. It happens like everything else. I'm pretty sure by this time that I will never find an I... (interesting, I will never find an I... who's looking? Looking for an I is just happening.) This loop continues over and over and over...

Back to the analogy of waking up in the morning, knowing just appears along with all that is known. And actually if I really think about it, there is no separation between knowing and what is known. Those are two labels given by the mind that is breaking down what is actually happening. For instance, mind would say "this body is sitting here looking at the computer." When really there is a body appearing here, the sensation of blinking and moving eyes, and computer. Nobody is here to "look" or think about looking, everything is effortlessly appearing and being sensed. Mind just has stories that are not accurate!
Blank and fear are just feelings, they are not you. Look behind the fear, deeper, what is there to fear if you don't exist? Go into the "blank", what about the blank is fearful?
I looked and this time could not find fear. When starting to look into this a couple of years ago the fear was very strong (now that is a memory arising) but there is not much fear lately. I just couldn't find it. But it was just what I call blank. Nothing, really. But the nothing seems nice because there are no thoughts there, and so the mind would label that as peaceful. It's very relaxing. There are no thoughts of "I" or anything to "get" or "understand", so it is just pure relaxation (those are just words describing what actually can't really be described). So, to sum it up, there is of course nothing to fear! Actually is it realized here that fear is just a label for sensations of a surge of energy going through the body... nothing to fear at all. There is nothing underneath fear except the nothingness. That alone remains.
Again, who is the knower? There is no " I".
Yes, knowing just happens. It just appears like everything else. Should I stop using the word "I" when I correspond ? Every time I look, it is not there. But I still talk as if this imaginary I does exist sometimes... It's all about the belief in the "I" isn't it? When looking for it happens, it is never there in reality. But when talking and telling stories it seems to be there. A thought is arising that "I" is just the story of the character known as Martina. That's what "I" refers to isn't it? But the story is kind of like a memory, coming from mind... about this character. In reality there is only a body, hands typing, and a few sensations. The story is in imagination.

But the next thought was, "Didn't those things happen? Those things that were experienced over this lifetime?"

Much appreciation, Martina

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby Metta777 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:42 am

"It seemed to happen..." Did it? " there is no separation between knowing and what is known." Great!!, yes. "There are no thoughts of "I" or anything to "get" or "understand"" Good! Try communicating without the "I " and see what happens. There is consciousness, who is conscious? " is it realized here that fear is just a label for sensations of a surge of energy going through the body..." Yes... :-)
"This too shall pass"

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby martina » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:52 am

"It seemed to happen..." Did it?
"

That was read and the mind came to a halt. Can it be proven that anything has happened? What proof is there? Searching... Everything about the past comes up now as a memory, which is not actually real. All that can be known to be real is that which is appearing here and now, which is changing each moment. So what IS real? Only what is appearing right now?

There is a feeling now of being quite lost... (Who is lost? nobody, just a feeling arising) What can really be known? No answer found. Everything comes back to this quietness. Questions come up, and if there is no interest in the content of the question it seems to disappear into the quiet silence. If there is interest, it seems to lead to another question. Does any of this matter? There is a thought that the mind is tired. But the mind is only thoughts, and thoughts can't be tired... Who or what is tired then? Nothing is found. All that is ever found is nothing. Nothing. Just life, happening on it's own. Just birds chirping, body typing, breathing, a feeling of tiredness arising to no one.
There is consciousness, who is conscious?
Consciousness (or awareness) seems to be there for this body during dreaming and waking. There is a knowing of what was happening in the dream, and a knowing of what is happening in the waking state. It is assumed that it is also in the deep sleep state as well, because there have been written accounts of people who are conscious when the body is in deep sleep (but this is speculation). So it is a consciousness or awareness that is impersonal, because it seems as if all bodies share this consciousness. Who is conscious? Nobody in particular (it seems that it is being seen in this investigation that there IS nobody in particular!), consciousness just is. This is what arises, not sure if you will agree.

That's all for now. Thanks Metta.

Martina

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby martina » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:29 am

Hi Metta...

This body woke up at 3:00 am and can't get back to sleep. Thoughts were swirling again. It seems to be a tornado of thoughts leading nowhere. It seems that the most important thought is Who am I? or Who is thinking these thoughts? And when looked at, there is only the blank nothingness. It is seen that there is no separate I, only looking happening and a blank nothingness appearing. What is deeper than that? What is being missed?

Also, a memory arose. About three years ago after reading a book that said "You are not what you think you are. You are not your story", something was realized and a different kind of seeing (and way of being) happened here where there was a presence of being in the foreground, for lack of a better description, and thoughts, body, etc. were in the background, so to speak. Thoughts did not seem to have much attention or belief going into them for several days. They came up, but were "left alone," and soon disappeared. At first there was an extreme amount of energy going through the body and everything was tingling. The mind could not pull up anything in memory to describe what was happening, and thoughts seemed to slow down. There was deep peace, a feeling of timelessness, and not much reaction to anything. It seemed to be a more natural way to live. Everything in life stood out as amazing and beautiful. After that, the body was more sensitive to loud sounds, seeing violence on TV, etc. but eventually returned to a normal state. Somehow since that time there has been a search going on to find out what happened, and how to live that way again. Just a bit of background info. This is only a part of this character's story, right? Was that just one aspect of life unfolding here? The thing is, that is when the intense seeking started. A guess is that this seeking is now what is covering up the peace that is already there underneath all of this seeking.

Anyway, it is obvious when looking at thoughts that there is nobody behind them that is doing the thinking. Every time it is looked at there is just nobody there. So does the mind just need to stop searching and realize the truth of this? To stop even looking and just know that THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYONE THERE!!!

So, there is no I... But what ultimately IS then? Just life happening now? What is this sense of beingness that is felt? It FEELS like I am. Your guidance is so appreciated Metta. Thanks so much.

Martina

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby Metta777 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:06 pm

Martina, Sometimes we can become identified with the search. The search is exciting, we go through so much, we try all kinds of things to find what we already have found. Life is what is happening now in this moment. We can let go of the past after examining it, because there is no " I " , it is a story told. We can't go back and change it, it is dead. The future doesn't exist because it is only in the mind. The mind is not you. Let yourself, your conditioned mind go. The deep peace, the timelessness , the experience of NOW is real. There is no normal state, :-), just different levels of direct experience. Namaste, Metta
"This too shall pass"

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Re: looking for guidance

Postby martina » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:07 am

Yes, Metta, the search was identified with. There was a thought that said "this can not be it", and this thought was believed in. And then the searching, searching, searching for an I that could never be found. It became more and more clear during this correspondence with you that this "I" would NEVER be found, and that this was already seen here. NOW is all there is... perfect. All is life unfolding, including this body/mind called Martina.

After posting to you last night, there was a knowing that there would be no more seeking here. No more reading books or watching youtube to try to "get" this. It is already seen. And if doubts arise, fine. They can be seen as just thoughts... and belief in them does not need to happen. Thoughts arising to no one, and disappearing again.

But there was an interest here in what your response would be Metta. I (yes, there is no one there) was wondering what your reply would be. After reading it, there was a feeling of relief, and tears that you agreed with what was already felt here. Feeling lighter. Free. But there was nothing else special happening. Just this ordinary life happening now which has always been enough, hasn't it?

So, the words "thank you" cannot begin to express the gratitude that is felt here for your gentle guidance. It was just what was needed to clear away the doubt here. Not sure what will happen next in this unfolding, but it feels like a new beginning. I look forward to reading your next post to see if there is anything else you want to ask.

With heartfelt gratitude and love, Martina


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