A jump to truth.

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Nigeluzito
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby Nigeluzito » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:12 pm

Hi John

I continue looking at the self as another perception, it seems very freeing. The self idea is not so obvious here, as a lot has been dropped over time, but it is still maintaining itself.

I look at an ordinary perception and then that sense of that which is recieving it ,often mentally naming the original perception as perception and then naming the recieving "self" as a peception too. It seems useful, loosening things up.

I have the sense of a loop being created between the two perceptions referred to above.

I suppose once that loop is completely seen through the"GATE" is seen as never having been there!!!

I keep on looking in a relaxed way.

Thanks
Nigel

PS Written 7/7 but couldn´t post it as problems with the site. I keep working on it.

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:12 pm

Hi Nigel,

I continue looking at the self as another perception, it seems very freeing. The self idea is not so obvious here, as a lot has been dropped over time, but it is still maintaining itself.

There's our natural being.
And there's the perception/story/impression of self as an autonomous being - to which we may identify - which is 'projected' on top (as it were). Augmented, as the youngsters might say. :D

Our natural being has no name, nor gives a fleeting fuck about self. :)

The two often get conflated.
So worth checking that out.

I look at an ordinary perception and then that sense of that which is recieving it ,often mentally naming the original perception as perception and then naming the recieving "self" as a peception too. It seems useful, loosening things up.

Yeah, we observe ourselves and the world as perceptions.

I have the sense of a loop being created between the two perceptions referred to above.
I suppose once that loop is completely seen through the"GATE" is seen as never having been there!!!

As you say, our perception is of ourselves as subject. Nothing wrong with that. But to this perception of self as subject we add agency, as part of the 'self' deal.

Is agency a part of our self perception?
Check it out.

Best wishes,
John

p.s. website is in a better place now, for the moment anyway :)
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Nigeluzito
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby Nigeluzito » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:52 am

Hi John

Thanks for the indications.
....
There's our natural being.
And there's the perception/story/impression of self as an autonomous being - to which we may identify - which is 'projected' on top (as it were). Augmented, as the youngsters might say. :D

Our natural being has no name, nor gives a fleeting fuck about self. :)

The two often get conflated.
So worth checking that out.

... I had a look at this, prehaps a sliding scale in the sense that the natural being becomes more obvious or lived as the "Nigel" self reduces in importance. Here change is so gradual probably aspects of this are not noticed.

... As you say, our perception is of ourselves as subject. Nothing wrong with that. But to this perception of self as subject we add agency, as part of the 'self' deal.

Is agency a part of our self perception?
Check it out. ...

Last night I was looking at the perception of objects and the perciever as a perception as I do with regularity. The thought arrived that it´s like a Russian doll you see a self then realise that which is looking is itself self (prehaps more refined); again another way of expressing the loop idea of my last post.

Then I looked at the idea itself (Russian doll idea), where had that come from. It just popped up, in the mind and was heard. This brought up the whole question of agency, I didn´t creat this thought it appeared. Normally the self takes ownership of the thought and then responsibility.

So if thoughts just appear and are not produced really by self this blows away the idea of agency. If the motivation for an action can be a thought which appears, and is owned by the idea of self and acted on, it all seems rather automatic to say the least.

So some pretty big holes appearing in the idea of a self running the show... we are left with a kind of habitual learned self idea with years of momentum.

Best Wishes
Nigel

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:20 am

Hi Nigel,

... I had a look at this, prehaps a sliding scale in the sense that the natural being becomes more obvious or lived as the "Nigel" self reduces in importance. Here change is so gradual probably aspects of this are not noticed.

...
Last night I was looking at the perception of objects and the perciever as a perception as I do with regularity. The thought arrived that it´s like a Russian doll you see a self then realise that which is looking is itself self (prehaps more refined); again another way of expressing the loop idea of my last post.

Then I looked at the idea itself (Russian doll idea), where had that come from. It just popped up, in the mind and was heard. This brought up the whole question of agency, I didn´t creat this thought it appeared. Normally the self takes ownership of the thought and then responsibility.

So if thoughts just appear and are not produced really by self this blows away the idea of agency. If the motivation for an action can be a thought which appears, and is owned by the idea of self and acted on, it all seems rather automatic to say the least.

So some pretty big holes appearing in the idea of a self running the show... we are left with a kind of habitual learned self idea with years of momentum.
Ok, good stuff.

In talking about 'the self' this, 'the self' that, 'the self' takes etc, we don't want to slip into accepting 'the self' in the way we are perceiving it, even imagining it.

So, for example, "Normally the self takes ownership of the thought and then responsibility." - we just need to pause and check what we are using this word 'self' to refer to. Is it any other than our idea of 'self'.

If that were the case, we'd be saying, "Normally, our idea of self takes ownership..." - which is a very different affair. :)

Also, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions with regard to thought either, because this is a massively mis-understood and assumed area.

As regards the Russian Doll idea, you're right in seeing that whatever we observe becomes a perception, and what we never perceive is the perceiving, only the object of perceiving, and as much as we try to lay a hand on it, we always come up empty, a blind spot if you will.

Just to finish off here, "So some pretty big holes appearing in the idea of a self running the show..." would become "So some pretty big holes appearing in the idea of the idea of a self running the show."

Explore and share when you're ready Nigel.

Time to go shopping, wish me luck. :D
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Nigeluzito
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby Nigeluzito » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:16 am

Hi John,

Just a short note as I have just found your last post, no notification arrived again.

I shall look into the "idea of the idea of self" more closely.

Sorry about the delay, now I know how to check the topic from another link.

I hope the shopping was ok :)

Best wishes
Nigel

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:53 am

Hi John,

Just a short note as I have just found your last post, no notification arrived again.

I shall look into the "idea of the idea of self" more closely.

Sorry about the delay, now I know how to check the topic from another link.

I hope the shopping was ok :)

Thanks Nigel. I survived the shopping. :D
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Nigeluzito
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby Nigeluzito » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:43 am

Hi John

Yes I agree with the idea of the idea of the idea of self. All I can see there is a bundle of ideas all forming self, like a ball made of rubber bands. With greater clarity the rubber bands fall away slowly and life is easier. Here the self idea doesn´t seem too attractive as often it (the idea of self) attempts to impose itself with painful thoughts, really ideas within ideas.

Probably the first knotted rubber band, the core on which the other ideas (bands) are layered is the idea of separation, followed by fear so not too surprising the self idea produces painful thoughts attempting to maintain the idea.

It seems that maintaining separation at all cost maintains the idea of self within the world of ideas. This becomes increasingly unattractive here. There is a recognition that all this belongs to the idea world which is a perception and NOT that which percieves which as we commented cannot be percieved.

Although I comment this in depth here really this amount of thinking is not my habitual experience fortunately. The rubber bands fall away not so much by being attended to, more due to an attention to the simple moment and an acceptance of it as it is and a lack of the need for it to be in another form.

Hopefully this unravelling in the idea world will help unravel the core ideas on which the rest of the ideas accumulate, although remembering, it is all only perception cuts through it all.

I´ll leave it there before the idea of the idea of self gets a headache :)

Best wishes
Nigel

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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:50 am

Hi Nigel,

Yes I agree with the idea of the idea of the idea of self. All I can see there is a bundle of ideas all forming self, like a ball made of rubber bands. With greater clarity the rubber bands fall away slowly and life is easier. Here the self idea doesn´t seem too attractive as often it (the idea of self) attempts to impose itself with painful thoughts, really ideas within ideas.

Probably the first knotted rubber band, the core on which the other ideas (bands) are layered is the idea of separation, followed by fear so not too surprising the self idea produces painful thoughts attempting to maintain the idea.

It seems that maintaining separation at all cost maintains the idea of self within the world of ideas. This becomes increasingly unattractive here. There is a recognition that all this belongs to the idea world which is a perception and NOT that which percieves which as we commented cannot be percieved.

Separate from what?

Thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Nigeluzito
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby Nigeluzito » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:12 pm

Hi John,

Separate from what?

Good question ...

The idea is that the body delimited by the skin is separate from everything else.

This is just a learnt idea, a tribesperson in the amazon might have a completely different view.

The idea here is that any idea really maintains one in the realm of the mind.

Maybe the constant remembering of this looping effect, can help what you refered to as the natural self step out of this mental looping. Here it seems more mental activity gives more opportunity for getting stuck in the mental mud!!

Thanks
Nigel

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:45 pm

Separate from what?

Good question ...

The idea is that the body delimited by the skin is separate from everything else.

This is just a learnt idea, a tribesperson in the amazon might have a completely different view.

The idea here is that any idea really maintains one in the realm of the mind.

Maybe the constant remembering of this looping effect, can help what you refered to as the natural self step out of this mental looping. Here it seems more mental activity gives more opportunity for getting stuck in the mental mud!!

So, let's say, over there, is a human being mentally looping.

Just watch that one.

See what intuitions show up about what is going on for them.

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Nigeluzito
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby Nigeluzito » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:36 pm

Hi John

"So, let's say, over there, is a human being mentally looping.

Just watch that one.

See what intuitions show up about what is going on for them."

The mental looping seems to be an automatic process a kind of default activity, here there is usually very little interest in its activity, the connection of the sensation of ownership has largely fallen away and the is a seeming momentum carrying on the unecessary thought train.

Here there is a intuition of unwinding.

In silent looking all the above disappears.... better.

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:53 am

The mental looping seems to be an automatic process a kind of default activity, here there is usually very little interest in its activity, the connection of the sensation of ownership has largely fallen away and the is a seeming momentum carrying on the unecessary thought train.

Here there is a intuition of unwinding.

In silent looking all the above disappears.... better.

Ok, with the sensation of ownership...who seemed the owner of what?

Thanks,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Nigeluzito
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby Nigeluzito » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:11 pm

Hi John

" ownership " Just another idea in a sea of ideas creating a mental landscape.

Part of the mental looping, one concept chasing another as the wings on a electric fan, only when spinning fast enough does it creat the sense of solidity. As more silent , spacious stillness is seen between ideas less attention is placed on the ideas themselves and more on the ever present context.

Best wishes
NIgel

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:57 pm

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for your response.

Just to say, right now, I don't have much time, so I'll get back in 3/4 days.

Best wishes,
john
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Nigeluzito
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Re: A jump to truth.

Postby Nigeluzito » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:04 pm

Hi John

How are things with you ?

I sent a private message weeks ago but I´m posting this incase it didn´t arrive.

Best wishes
Nigel.


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