silence

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alreadyfree
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Re: silence

Postby alreadyfree » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:40 am

Thanks Phil. How would you briefly describe the issue you mention here to a complete stranger.
Hi John, thanks for your reply. Sorry re delay in replying due to: 1. website being down for a few days 2. unable to login which took another day to fix by system admin 3. dealing with a common cold

To answer your first question: I've struggled with moderate levels of depression intermittently for the past 40 years, including recently. Yes I've tried all the usual cures including medication.
One of my favourite books is The Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula LeGuin, which is about just this topic. Beautiful book, have a read if you fancy it.
Thanks for the book recommendation. I will follow it up.
Well, yes, but before that, some healing of our heart is always beneficial. Perceptions are neither true or false, they are the way we get to know stuff, so they are totally useful. Even if what they are presenting is say, that "I am no good, useless", knowing it's a perception I know it's not necessarily true, so I don't have to run away from it. At the same time, I want to know if there's something to learn here, cos' if there is, I'm all ears. :)

So, I may explore ""I am no good, useless" and discover that actually, this is something I believe about myself. And then I can explore how come? Whether it's past it's sell by date? Even thank it for the reminder.

Because it's a perception, I don't have to fix it, but I can use it.

Does that make sense?
Yes, that makes sense. Although, if there seems strong evidence from my past history that, say, "I don't amount to much", then I'm inclined to to take this perception as a fact - perhaps habitually. Maybe it's deeply ingrained in me. But, as you say, perceptions are neither true nor false. If it's a negative perception of myself ("I don't amount to much"), then I think I should reject it or I will suffer from it.

Thanks for your help, John. Looking forward to your reply.
Phil

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: silence

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:32 am

Hi Phil,

Yes, that makes sense. Although, if there seems strong evidence from my past history that, say, "I don't amount to much", then I'm inclined to to take this perception as a fact - perhaps habitually. Maybe it's deeply ingrained in me. But, as you say, perceptions are neither true nor false. If it's a negative perception of myself ("I don't amount to much"), then I think I should reject it or I will suffer from it.

You make some great points here.

If I write "I don't amount to much" on a piece of paper.
There it is, a bit of ink, on a piece of paper.

What gives these words power over me?

Does the ink on paper have any power?

Consider that ink on paper has zero power.

What are you afraid will happen when you realise these old words have zero power, zero agency?

Maybe you're afraid to see that you are a good man.

Is that so dangerous?

Much love,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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alreadyfree
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Re: silence

Postby alreadyfree » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:04 pm

You make some great points here.

If I write "I don't amount to much" on a piece of paper.
There it is, a bit of ink, on a piece of paper.

What gives these words power over me?

Does the ink on paper have any power?

Consider that ink on paper has zero power.

What are you afraid will happen when you realise these old words have zero power, zero agency?

Maybe you're afraid to see that you are a good man.

Is that so dangerous?
That's a good way to put it. I agree that there's nothing to be afraid of - including that I may be a good man. I like the sound of that!

Thanks John

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s-p-a-c-e
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Re: silence

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:19 pm

That's a good way to put it. I agree that there's nothing to be afraid of - including that I may be a good man. I like the sound of that!

And it's important to note, we are not brushing anything under the carpet, or wishing anything away, but really, each day is a new day, and each of us has the opportunity on a new day to see how we show up.

Weave this into your life the next few days Phil - and see what comes about.

You could just explore with say, what happens when a good man shows up?

With much love!
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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alreadyfree
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Re: silence

Postby alreadyfree » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:41 am

And it's important to note, we are not brushing anything under the carpet, or wishing anything away, but really, each day is a new day, and each of us has the opportunity on a new day to see how we show up.

Weave this into your life the next few days Phil - and see what comes about.

You could just explore with say, what happens when a good man shows up?
Thanks John. My apology for not posting yesterday (I think we're encouraged to post daily).

I like your idea about each day being a new day & the opportunity to start afresh without the baggage of those old negative
self-concepts.

So I will indeed weave this into my life for the next few days & see what results. Excellent suggestion & very liberating. I feel better already!

I also like the idea you suggested about 2 days ago, of just looking at my negative beliefs (about myself, life in general & the seeming dire state of the planet) on paper. That's a powerful way of disarming these destructive beliefs & the daily deluge of media bad news about covid19, the economy & world events.

By the way, I am slowly reading through the LU book, which is very helpful & inspiring.

Not sure if I'm allowed to ask, but I'm guessing you live in England?

Thanks for your excellent help.
Phil

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Re: silence

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:46 pm

Hiya Phil,

Great.

Yes, I'm in the UK. :)

No worries about daily updates etc, I trust you'll post when you wish to post.

Look forward to hearing about the weaving!

With best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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alreadyfree
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Re: silence

Postby alreadyfree » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:21 am

Hiya Phil,

Great.

Yes, I'm in the UK. :)

No worries about daily updates etc, I trust you'll post when you wish to post.

Look forward to hearing about the weaving!

With best wishes,
John
Hi John

Everything is going very well with this weaving practise. It has made me much more aware of when I buy into negative beliefs & so I can immediately dismiss them. The result is I feel much more positive, optimistic, at ease & happier. Hence life seems much brighter & it's a lot easier to be with other people & enjoy their company.

I'm even acting as a low-key guide to 2 women. One I only have met once from a dating website. She's 19 years younger & we agree too young for me. However she suffers a lot from depression, isolation & loneliness; so i often support her via texting.

The second women I've only known for 6 months & met via a woman friend of mine. I'm not interested in her romantically but she suffers a lot from isolation, loneliness & a chronic pattern of falling out with many people who she perceives have betrayed or offended her. She then carries strong feelings of resentment & grievance towards the offending people, bordering on hatred.

I encouraged her to join a 12 step support group I attend called "Adult Children of Alcoholic OR Dysfunctional Families Anonymous". We use the same format as Alcoholics Anonymous. She has been attending for several months with mixed results.

I'm also encouraging her to investigate the teaching of Byron Katie (USA) which is about challenging beliefs that cause a person to suffer. You may have heard of Byron Katie as she's very popular.

Yes I'm mindful of maintaining healthy boundaries in helping these 2 women. I did a 2 months stint in 2015 as a volunteer phone counsellor with the leading phone helpline service in Australia called Lifeline. I guess the equivalent in UK may be The Samaritans.

Hope I haven't gone off track by telling you about these 2 women?

Love & best wishes
Phil

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Re: silence

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:27 am

Hi Phil,

Everything is going very well with this weaving practise. It has made me much more aware of when I buy into negative beliefs & so I can immediately dismiss them. The result is I feel much more positive, optimistic, at ease & happier. Hence life seems much brighter & it's a lot easier to be with other people & enjoy their company.

Good to hear. It's cool to start the day, seeing that today I'm showing up as a good man - the world has a wonderful habit of reflecting that too. :)

Continue to explore this approach Phil for a couple of days, and share your experience, as and when.

As for the 2 women: "there are only three kinds of business in the universe: mine, yours, and God’s" as Byron Katie would say. :) And that is definitely yours. Good to know you can provide helpful appropriate support. The world sure needs good people right now.

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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alreadyfree
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Re: silence

Postby alreadyfree » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:16 am

Good to hear. It's cool to start the day, seeing that today I'm showing up as a good man - the world has a wonderful habit of reflecting that too. :)

Continue to explore this approach Phil for a couple of days, and share your experience, as and when.

As for the 2 women: "there are only three kinds of business in the universe: mine, yours, and God’s" as Byron Katie would say. :) And that is definitely yours. Good to know you can provide helpful appropriate support. The world sure needs good people right now.

Best wishes,
John
"
Hi John.

Yesterday & today I didn't talk to anyone, which is common for me. However, I struck an obstacle last night which often arises for me. After a pretty good day, I felt a low heavy mood come over me for no apparent reason. This is something that probably happens 4-5 times each week & has done for decades. The moods usually last from a few hours to several days.

It causes me great frustration & discouragement. At those times, I dwell a lot on possible causes. eg. is it because:
1. I'm too isolated. 2. I don't keep busy & active enough. 3. I can't find things to do that I enjoy. 4. I need to get out more. 5. I need therapy. 6. I should do more volunteer work ( & generate good karma for myself).

In fact last night, in desperation, I emailed an alternate healer who I saw 5 times 6 years ago. I requested more sessions, hoping this might eliminate these low moods. I'm now booked to see her in a week.

I thought a lot about this problem this morning, even though I felt much better. I read some spiritual books which i knew would give me some clues. On of these was the Liberation Unleashed book, where I read about unrealistic expectations.

So I realise now that I have this expectation that, being on the spiritual path (including LU), I should be seeing a gradual lessening of this mood problem.

Yes I have read the advice by many awakened teachers, which is basically: "allow the bad feelings/moods to arise, observe them in a detached way without resistance or judgement & soon they will pass away. Do not think too much about these feelings/moods as this will often make them worse".

This seems like sound advice. I can say that these moods/feelings have lessened in duration in recent years, which is encouraging. Occasionally I cancel appointments, when one of these moods is present, without telling the other person the true reason.

So, I feel I'm pretty good at spotting limiting beliefs & discarding them. But when it comes to these moods, it seems I have little power over them. I recall reading in a book by UK Nonduality teacher Richard Sylvester ( a student of Tony Parsons UK), that liberation doesn't always make a person happier. Although, he did say that any suffering that arises is usually quickly seen through as "not mine", since there is no separate person.

Hope this is useful material for our guiding process.

Thanks for your support
Phil

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Re: silence

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:41 am

Hi Phil,

Yesterday & today I didn't talk to anyone, which is common for me. However, I struck an obstacle last night which often arises for me. After a pretty good day, I felt a low heavy mood come over me for no apparent reason. This is something that probably happens 4-5 times each week & has done for decades. The moods usually last from a few hours to several days.

When you're feeling this mood, sit with it and breath slowly and steadily, eyes closed, maybe for a minute.

When the time's right ask this mood, "What is it that you do for me?"

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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alreadyfree
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Re: silence

Postby alreadyfree » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:22 am

When you're feeling this mood, sit with it and breath slowly and steadily, eyes closed, maybe for a minute.

When the time's right ask this mood, "What is it that you do for me?"

Best wishes,
John
Thanks for your excellent suggestion, John. So far I haven't had an opportunity to try it, as no low moods have come up.

I don't have much to report today, but I'm attempting to post daily, at least. Also, I needed to reread the guidelines re direct pointing & the point about writing from my own experience, rather than speculation & theory-making.

Regards
Phil

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Re: silence

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:29 pm

Thanks for your excellent suggestion, John. So far I haven't had an opportunity to try it, as no low moods have come up.

Our approach is to accept the possibility that we bring forth a mood because it has something of value for us.

So were we to wish it away, we'd would miss the value, the gift. Whilst the wrapping is often unpleasant :) there is always a gift in there, when we approach it in a willing-to-discover something about myself kinda way.

I don't have much to report today, but I'm attempting to post daily, at least. Also, I needed to reread the guidelines re direct pointing & the point about writing from my own experience, rather than speculation & theory-making.

Don't worry about this Phil, if it comes up, I'll mention it.

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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alreadyfree
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Re: silence

Postby alreadyfree » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:57 pm

Our approach is to accept the possibility that we bring forth a mood because it has something of value for us.

So were we to wish it away, we'd would miss the value, the gift. Whilst the wrapping is often unpleasant :) there is always a gift in there, when we approach it in a willing-to-discover something about myself kinda way.
Hi John

I've been thinking about the whole LU guiding process & reading more of the LU book. I feel like I'm in unfamiliar territory with LU which surprises me cos I've been a dedicated spiritual seeker for about 40 years & thought nothing spiritual would feel unfamiliar or strange. I thought I'd seen or done or read about almost all of it. And yet LU seems quite unlike anything spiritual I've ever explored.

It's not that this disturbs me or worries me. It's more like I'm unsure which direction to go & what say in our dialogue. It feels like I need an instruction manual on how to do this process. It's similar to going to a counsellor or therapist where it's assumed the therapist will direct & control the session, by asking relevant questions etc. However, this guiding in LU is somehow different, perhaps because it's done via email.

So, I often feel like I don't clearly know what to write to you about. And when I write I often wonder if I've gone "off track" & am just waffling on.

I'm slowly reading the LU book, partly to give me more clarity about how to do this process. There's a lot of transcripts in the book from various persons who've completed the process. I feel reluctant to read these as I'm pretty sure each person has a uniquely different experience of being guided. And I'm pretty sure that reading the book is not a prerequisite for the guiding process or even recommended. In the same way, I know anyone can undertake the LU process without any previous spiritual knowledge or experience at all. Perhaps it's even an advantage to have no previous knowledge as that reduces all those wrong expectations. How strange!

There doesn't seem to be a map of how to navigate the process, other than relying on the guide to lead the way. It feels like I'm blindfolded & relying on you to lead me along. I suppose I'm used to always being self-reliant.

I've noticed that some of the lucky ones complete the process in just a few days while others take months. Of course, I want to get through it as quickly as I can, yet I know I cannot control how long it will take. Then I sometimes wonder if I will fail to get through the gateless gate & whether this happens to many people. This does create some fear.

I know very well that I've done a great many spiritual workshops, meditation retreats, seminars & read probably over 1000 spiritual books over the last 40 years. And for each one of these, it's always with the hope that my life will be transformed or at least vastly improved afterwards. But I also know that after these workshops, books etc there's often a sense of disappointment because something is still missing. And so the search continues, - wearily.

So, there is some fear that eventually (in weeks or months) I might look back on the LU experience with that same disappointment, & quietly admit to some people that the experience was a failure & not something I recommend. On the other hand, I'm willing to risk that.

On a more positive note, I have been feeling happier than usual - partly due to being inspired by the LU book. On the other hand, I know that every author of spiritual books presents their ideas & methods as being enormously promising & revolutionary, since both they & their publisher want to maximise the book's sales & success.

I suppose some people complete the LU process quickly because they put a lot of time & effort each day into the process & emailing their guide. So far, I haven't put a lot of time into it, but not because I'm too busy. It's more because I approach it with some caution, in case it proves at a later date to be disappointing.

One final rather bizarre thought: I sometimes wonder if I've already been through the gateless gate in the distant past - through fleeting awakening experiences such as occurred over 30 years ago. Perhaps I didn't really understand & appreciate those glimpses of awakening , or know how to allow them to bear fruit in a deeper & transformative way. But anyway, maybe I need to pass through the gate a few more times.

I apologise if I've waffled on too much today & gotten off track.

Phil

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Re: silence

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:30 pm

Hi Phil,

There is no process, and each guide is different.

In fact, I did a little interview recently, so this may give more perspective.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/res ... uide-john/

Don't worry about the process, etc, etc. Relax - it's an order. :D

Best ishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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alreadyfree
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Re: silence

Postby alreadyfree » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:21 am

There is no process, and each guide is different.

In fact, I did a little interview recently, so this may give more perspective.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/res ... uide-john/

Don't worry about the process, etc, etc. Relax - it's an order. :D

Best ishes,
John
Hi John
I like your brief zen-like reply, though I'm still a bit baffled, but that's OK. Yes I will try to relax about it all.

I loved reading your interview & was interested that your focus in guiding is more about the story than non-self. I feel envious that you got through the gate without anyone helping in just an hour.

I also wondered if your use of perception methods etc may have been learnt from the late UK teacher Douglas Harding. Many years ago I read a few of his books & was fascinated by his perception experiments in "having no head".

I also like the bit about not wanting to do anything - but not due to feeling down. I like doing nothing quite often too & sometimes recommend it to others, while explaining it's a loose form of meditation & different from day-dreaming & endless useless thinking.

I don't have any questions, though I suppose this isn't about asking you questions.

Probably my next move will be to read some more transcripts of people being successfully guided through the gate. That may give me some clues about this non-process :). I plan to read more interviews with guides too.

Thanks John
Phil


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