Die before you die

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Tue May 14, 2019 9:36 pm

. We also say “I’m thinking” – but is there really an ‘I’ that is doing something or are thoughts simply arising? Have a look and see.
Yes I'm aware thoughts are just arising. I can find no me, so instigator of thought.

.
We also say: “I am aware of my thoughts” – but is there really something that is doing the aware-ing (knowing) of thoughts?
Where is this knower exactly? – if it exists, it has to be there somewhere. Find it.
No I cannot find a separate knower', something seperate to what is known.
. What is left of awareness if all the objects (sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought) are removed?
There would be nothing.

. So can a stand-alone, independent awareness being aware itself only, if there is no experience at all?
If yes, what would that be like? – even answering this question, requires lots of fantasy…
No. I can't imagine it. It's impossible, for awareness to be known without an object, but even then awareness isn't known, objects are known because of awareness, but awareness isn't known.
.
Have you ever had the experience of ‘awareness being aware of itself’ without any object (no experience at all)?
No.

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Wed May 15, 2019 2:23 am

Hi Rachel,
It's impossible, for awareness to be known without an object, but even then awareness isn't known, objects are known because of awareness, but awareness isn't known.
“objects are known because of awareness” – so although awareness cannot be found, cannot be experience, there is still a belief that there is an independent stand-alone awareness!

If awareness cannot be known, then how is it known that there is a stand-alone awareness?
If awareness cannot be experienced, then how is it known that there is a stand-alone awareness?

“It's impossible, for awareness to be known without an object” – and what about when an object is present? Then is there awareness as such known?
V: Have you ever had the experience of ‘awareness being aware of itself’ without any object (no experience at all)?
R: No.
Then what makes you believe that there is such ‘thing’ as a stand-alone independent awareness?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Wed May 15, 2019 8:56 pm

. If awareness cannot be known, then how is it known that there is a stand-alone awareness?
If awareness cannot be experienced, then how is it known that there is a stand-alone awareness?
Hi,

No there isn't a stand alone awareness. Somehow it's integrated into everything that is known or felt.
.
“It's impossible, for awareness to be known without an object” – and what about when an object is present? Then is there awareness as such known?
No awareness is not known. There is just knowing.
.Then what makes you believe that there is such ‘thing’ as a stand-alone independent awareness?
There isn't I can see that. I think it's because I know I exist. Even though I don't know what I am I know 'i am'. If that makes sense, because feeling and thought are known,it sort of feels like there has to be someone or something here, even though I can find anything or anyone. Because I can't seem to shake the belief, it's like I have to keep checking, over and over, going round in circles. Constantly drawn to the sense of 'i' as it moves around, I have to keep going back to it and seeing that there is no 'me', but as I've said before by then it's moved so I'm looking somewhere else etc.. etc.. I was thinking maybe I should flip this around and find out 'what am I' rather than what I am not? What is this sense of existence or knowing And if 'i' don't actually exist or am nothing, or not a seperate thing, from thought and sensation... Well I might be going off track so I'll wait for your reply,

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Thu May 16, 2019 1:58 am

Hi Rachel,
I think it's because I know I exist. Even though I don't know what I am I know 'i am'.
That is the problem!
How do you know that YOU exist, if you cannot be found?

Look for evidence! Prove it! Don’t just believe this sentence “I know I exist”. – Where is the evidence for this sentence?
If that makes sense, because feeling and thought are known,it sort of feels like there has to be someone or something here, even though I can find anything or anyone.

“there has to be someone there” – this is an assumption.
This is exactly what you have to investigate, if there REALLY is someone or something.

When a sentence starts with ‘feels like’ – it means that there is just a belief. ‘Feels like’ – is just an analogy.

And the seeming feeling is coming from sensations! Look for the sensation that seems to be the you. Find it. “Seems like is not enough”. You have to find it! Prove it that it exists! Not just assume, but prove it! – Where is the experiential evidence for it?
Because I can't seem to shake the belief, it's like I have to keep checking, over and over, going round in circles. Constantly drawn to the sense of 'i' as it moves around, I have to keep going back to it and seeing that there is no 'me', but as I've said before by then it's moved so I'm looking somewhere else etc.. etc..
This is exactly what you have to keep doing! Every time it moves, just follow it, and investigate it.

It’s the constant looking and looking and looking and NOT FINDING MAKES THE REALIZATION! So keep looking.
. I was thinking maybe I should flip this around and find out 'what am I' rather than what I am not?
This would be counterproductive. If you look for what I am, can’t lead to anything fruitful, because the question itself assumes that I exist, I just have to find out what I am. If the question is based on a belief, you just can come up with more beliefs.

I think the reason behind this looking and not finding but still believing in the self, is that you have 2 contradictory desires.

- There is a desire to see through the self, so the search is going on
- But at the same time there is probably an even stronger DESIRE to HAVE A SELF. A self that cannot die.

So this whole looking has become the battlefield of these two opposing desire. And the desire for a self that cannot die PREVENT ACCEPTING what HAS ALREADY BEEN SEEN SEVERAL TIMES, that THERE IS NO YOU! Can you see this?

And probably the question “what I am” came up on behalf of the desire to have an immortal self. I exist, I just have to figure out what I am.

You say: maybe I should flip this around and find out 'what am I' rather than what I am not?” – we are not trying to figure out what you are not! Trying to find out what I am not, is STILL BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT I EXIST, I JUST HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT I AM NOT, THEN I CAN FIND MY PURE ESSENCE/SELF.

It’s not about finding or not finding what you are not, but rather SEEING THAT YOU ARE NOT AT ALL!
In no shape, or form, or in any way a you, and I, a self exist! – this is where you have to focus your inquiry. Do you see the huge difference between the two?


I suggest taking a very deep investigation of the desire for an immortal self. Look for the one who want this desire to be true! Here lies ‘your’ freedom! Here lies the way out of suffering. This belief/desire is a huge hindrance of seeing and accepting what has already been seen.

Are you prepared and willing to investigate the desire for the immortal self?
Can you accept the possibility that there is NO YOU AT ALL?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Thu May 16, 2019 9:35 pm

Hi,

. How do you know that YOU exist, if you cannot be found?

Look for evidence! Prove it! Don’t just believe this sentence “I know I exist”. – Where is the evidence for this sentence? [/quote
. Prove it that it exists! Not just assume, but prove it! – Where is the experiential evidence for it?
No, I don't know that 'i' exist. For some reason I wasn't looking properly last night. I think you are right there is a battle to accept what is seen.
.
It’s the constant looking and looking and looking and NOT FINDING MAKES THE REALIZATION! So keep looking.
Is that what finally brings the seeing. I feel like I am taking too long.How many times can I see the same thing over and over again but still not be convinced. I thought maybe I'm missing something. I thought if I flipped it around and tried to find where the 'me' was somehow psychologically it might click, if I came at it from a different angle. I'm not expectingto find a me, I'm just trying to find a way for this to click. But anyway I'll keep on looking. It's just frustrating.

. So this whole looking has become the battlefield of these two opposing desire. And the desire for a self that cannot die PREVENT ACCEPTING what HAS ALREADY BEEN SEEN SEVERAL TIMES, that THERE IS NO YOU! Can you see this?
. It’s not about finding or not finding what you are not, but rather SEEING THAT YOU ARE NOT AT ALL!
In no shape, or form, or in any way a you, and I, a self exist! – this is where you have to focus your inquiry. Do you see the huge difference between the two?
Yes. As I said I genuinely wasn't expecting to find something, I was just trying to find a different way of looking in the hope that something would finally click. But I do see the difference. I'm not expecting to find a me, or something that is a seperate doer, thinker. For some reason the understanding that there is no 'me' is remaining on an intellectual level. I hate to admit it but yes there are two conflicting desires, I hadn't realised my desire to not die was as strong as this I also did not realise that doing this looking would keep bringing it to the forefront. Not being able to find a seperate me or something that is not connected to what is, well it destroys all hope.

.
Are you prepared and willing to investigate the desire for the immortal self?
Can you accept the possibility that there is NO YOU AT ALL?
Yes to both it's just getting past the fear, at the moment it's quite strong and it makes it more difficult to look.
. . Look for the one who want this desire to be true!


Sorry I'm going to have to take a break and come back to this question either later or tomorrow.

With thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Fri May 17, 2019 2:53 am

Hi Rachel,
I feel like I am taking too long.How many times can I see the same thing over and over again but still not be convinced. I thought maybe I'm missing something.
It doesn’t matter how long it takes! Not at all. We are going to do this as long as it’s necessary. When a strong sense of self arises for me, I still do looking. This is the only tool you need. And of course, well targeted questions.

You’re probably not missing anything. But the battle between those two contradictory beliefs is preventing accepting what has been seen.
I'm not expectingto find a me, I'm just trying to find a way for this to click.
All right. But still, I don’t suggest using questions like “what/who am I?” since it implies a me, it makes just things even more confusing. Can you see this?
But anyway I'll keep on looking. It's just frustrating.
That’s all right. It’s natural to have frustration. But frustration arises on behalf of the self. So every time frustration is there, investigate. Always look. And always look afresh. Never rely on the memory of previous looking. Always look again.

So, what is it exactly that is having ‘frustration’?
And what is the AE of frustration?
Can frustration be experienced at all?


You just have to look and look and look until it gets totally clear that there is nothing there that could feel frustration. And there is not even the experience of frustration. The most fruitful lookings comes when there there is a strong emotion/rection is present.
I hate to admit it but yes there are two conflicting desires, I hadn't realised my desire to not die was as strong as this I also did not realise that doing this looking would keep bringing it to the forefront. Not being able to find a seperate me or something that is not connected to what is, well it destroys all hope.
Look, it seems that the fear of death is causes big suffering. So if you want to get out of this ‘self-torture’, you have to see through this desire and fear, and the one who is having this desire and fear. Actually the desire is based on fear. Without fear, there wouldn’t be the desire or hope for an immortal self.
it's just getting past the fear, at the moment it's quite strong and it makes it more difficult to look.
This notion of fear and a fearful person needs to be deconstructed, meaning taking the illusion into its parts, and seeing that all those parts are not the fear or the fearful person at all. When this is done thoroughly, even the word ‘fear’ can become meaningless. Since it can be discovered that fear as such simply cannot be experienced. Fear cannot be felt. Only sensations can be felt. Fear is just another illusion.

The illusion of fear has the following components:
1. The word ‘fear’ itself. Which is nothing else than a human made concept. An idea.
2. Sensations, that are labelled by thoughts as ‘fear’.
3. There is also the belief that fear as such exist. That fear a such can be experienced.
4. The subject (the self, I, me), which the seeming experience of ‘fear’ is happening to.

When the sensation (1) and the label of ‘fear’ (2) (which represents the concept/belief of fear (3)), are welded together into a bundle, then it seems that a real fear experience emerges (3). As if such thing as ‘fear’ as an emotion can be experienced. And of course the self is the subject (4) of this fearful experience.

Several days ago I asked you to try to find the fear. Here is your reply:
V: Rather try to find THE ‘fear’. Feel THE ‘fear’. Not the sensation, but the fear itself. What do you find?
R: I know if I look I can't find 'fear'.
Please, don’t just say to yourself that ‘I know if a I look I can’t find fear’. If you experience fear but you say that I know there is no fear, in that moment the “I know there is no fear” is just a belief. In that moment, it’s not seen. You are just relying on the MEMORY of a previous seeing. But at moment, it feels really real.

So you have to always LOOK AFRESH. Never rely on the memory of a previous seeing. That is just taking up a new belief that there is no fear, while it still feels very real. All right?

Here is a very good exercise how to break down the elements of the illusion of the fear, and see through them one-by-one. Please do this exercise repeatedly when any fear or anxiety arises.

So let’s look at the idea of fear that seems to appear with the thoughts about death.

So bring to mind the thoughts about the death that seem to bring with them the feelings of ‘fear’. Then close your eyes and do the following:

1) Look at the label/thought ‘fear’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead.

Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘fear’ itself anxious?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?


2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the fearful self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is ‘fear’ or that it is fearful?
Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is ‘fearful’?


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’?

Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’?

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere (look where thought says your feet are, to the left and right, up above…look everywhere) and see if you can find anyone or anything that is fearful.

Did you find anyone or anything that is fearful?


When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘fear’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, colour/image) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.

The label ‘fear’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of fear.
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of fear.
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of fear.
The thoughts ABOUT fear are AE of thought and not AE of fear.

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour/image + thoughts ABOUT fear?
Label ‘fear’ is known and thoughts about ‘fear’ are known, however, is ‘fear’ actually known?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Fri May 17, 2019 8:47 pm

. All right. But still, I don’t suggest using questions like “what/who am I?” since it implies a me, it makes just things even more confusing. Can you see this?
Hi,

Yes, ok, I understand.
.So, what is it exactly that is having ‘frustration’?
And what is the AE of frustration?
Can frustration be experienced at all?
I say 'i am frustrated' but I look for the me, and my attention goes to the physical sensation, tightness in my stomach, chest, lower arms (which I hadn't noticed before) and jaw. Thoughts arise saying, I still don't get it, or I've already done this several times , I'm never going to understand this etc..So I see sensation and thought. This I label frustration. Who labels it frustration? This is just a thought, a conscious thought.

Frustration is not experienced, sensation and thought are experienced.
. So you have to always LOOK AFRESH. Never rely on the memory of a previous seeing. That is just taking up a new belief that there is no fear, while it still feels very real. All right?
Yes, will do.
. Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘fear’ itself anxious?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?
It's justa bunch of letters. The label fear is just a word, no it is not anxious or fearful.
. Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is ‘fear’ or that it is fearful?
Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is ‘fearful’?

No the sensation does not suggest it is fearful. It is unpleasant. But it is just sensations. I see a situation, maybe a big dog running towards me barking, my body tenses, thoughts arise although not inherently fearful, like , is this dog going to bite me, just thoughts, but it seems like the thoughts exacerbate the anxiety. Although I cannot see a direct link in actual experience.

I can't find anyone in or behind the sensations.

Sorry, will have to break here for a bit will try to get back to the questions later this evening or if not I'll finish them tomorrow.


.

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Fri May 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Hi again,
.
Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’?
Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’?
No, the mental image arises but does not 'know' fear. No I can't find anything or anyone that an be fearful. It is just sensation.

.
Did you find anyone or anything that is fearful?
No I didn't. But again I came back to the actual knowing. The sensation is 'known' but I cannot find someone who says, 'i know'. There is nothing outside the direct 'knowing'. Somehow though I keep seperate knowing from what I perceive as an object like sensation or thought. Actually there is no' I' seperating sensation from knowing . If I look closely awareness and sensation are not seperate. But I do still struggle with this point. But I did not find a 'me' that was fearful.
. So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour/image + thoughts ABOUT fear?
Label ‘fear’ is known and thoughts about ‘fear’ are known, however, is ‘fear’ actually known?
Yes I can see this. Fear is not known. I have made a note of the exercise as tonight I was using a thought up experience and it wasn't particularly powerful. Unfortunately I can't seem to will my fear of death to arise, but I know it will come up and then I'll do the exercise and let you know how it goes.

Thanks Rachel

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Sat May 18, 2019 12:12 pm

morning Vivian I thought I would add an extra quick post about something. While doing the exercise yesterday. I realised something more clearly , I am looking for 'someone'. And I think I am identifying with the knower'. I spent a lot!! Of years reading and listening to non duality teachers, and I expected one day I would wake up as pure awarenesss or consciousness and this would be a thing, something tangible. Seperate but also one with experience. So I tend to call it the knower' as opposed to awareness or consciousness because that's how it seems in experience, there is knowing. I tried at first to put this concept to the side but as I did the exercise yesterday I felt the belief was getting stronger! I know it's a bit off track with regards to the looking at fear but I thought I would bring it up anyway. I'm going to sit with this later and try the fear exercise again. I actually think that looking at the knower' is what triggers the fear of death so I think the two might be intertwined? Any way just thought I would share that. I think sometimes I am slightly overlooking things and trying to rush through so I'm going to start taking things more slowly and really break them down.

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Sun May 19, 2019 2:02 am

Hi Rachel,
Thank you for sharing your discoveries. The picture is getting clearer by this.
I realised something more clearly , I am looking for 'someone'. And I think I am identifying with the knower'.
Yes. And the question “What am I?” – is based on this. That there is a looking and a desire to finding someone.
I spent a lot!! Of years reading and listening to non duality teachers, and I expected one day I would wake up as pure awarenesss or consciousness and this would be a thing, something tangible. Seperate but also one with experience. So I tend to call it the knower' as opposed to awareness or consciousness because that's how it seems in experience, there is knowing.
There are lots of misunderstanding about awakening out there. And “I am pure awareness or consciousness” is a really popular one. Probably because it’s still an identification with the ‘I’. Just the identification has shifted from the body and mind to awareness/consciousness/knower. It’s a subtler form or identification, but it’s still the same belief in the inherent existence of a self/me/I.

‘Awareness is aware of being aware’ – yes, it SEEMS LIKE that, and this is the BASIS OF THE ILLUSION OF THE SEPARATE SELF.

When it’s seen that a seer, taster, smeller, feeler, thinker, etc. cannot be found, the IDENTIFICATION often GOES to the SEEMING APPEARANCE OF A SELF-EXISTENT, SELF-AWARE AWARENESS, which is the KNOWER OF EVERYTHING THAT APPEARS.

So the identification with the body and the senses (feeler, hearer, thinker, etc) is replaced with a subtle form of identification, “I am that which is aware”…. So there is still some sort of separate entity which is aware and holds and knows all experience (object). And the identification with awareness is an excellent hiding place for the separate self. Since all the seeming realness of the separate self comes from the seeming realness of a standalone awareness. So as long as awareness is not seen for what it is, the belief of the separate self is not really seen through… it’s just hiding behind the notion of a standalone awareness. Do you see this?

This awareness is an ultimate illusion, it really seems very real. But nonetheless, it’s still an illusion. And for those who engaged in non-dual teachings this sometimes can be a serious stumbling block.
I tried at first to put this concept to the side but as I did the exercise yesterday I felt the belief was getting stronger! I know it's a bit off track with regards to the looking at fear but I thought I would bring it up anyway….I actually think that looking at the knower' is what triggers the fear of death so I think the two might be intertwined?
Thank you very much for sharing this. This is very important. This is the basis of the resistance of accepting what has already been seen.

So let me write a little story how I see what has happened here: So there is/was the belief in a separate self, called Rachel. This self has got very scared of its own mortality, and she started dreaming about existence after death. Ultimately, this is the bases of almost all religion. The promise of immortality and existence after the death of the body. But this self, Rachel, wanted proof. Wanted to make sure that she can survive death, and live eternally. She started searching, and found quite reassuring promises: “If I do enough and thorough investigation, one day I can wake up as pure awareness, as consciousness, so I will be able to know for sure that I cannot die.” So far, the identification was on the body, which is fragile and will disintegrate. And this is frightening to the self. But being pure awareness, the knower of experience is much more comforting. So the identification from the body, moved to the identification of the knower, in the hope of preventing the self from its own death.

But what if that this self, who is so desperate to stay alive, has never ever existed?
This might seems to be frightening to the seeming self, at least, as long as the self is taken seriously.

But, if there has never ever been a self in the first place, then there is nothing that could die! And nothing will die when the body stops functioning.

So the question is, how much do you want to find and identify with a ‘tangible’ awareness/consciousness in the hope of some sorts of afterlife?

And how much do you want to stop this whole search of an eternal life, and seeing that this whole search on behalf of the self is just an illusion, and in reality there is nothing to afraid of, since there is nothing that could die?

Do you see that the notion of eternal life is just an invention on behalf of a fear?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Sun May 19, 2019 4:50 pm

Hi Vivian
. Since all the seeming realness of the separate self comes from the seeming realness of a standalone awareness. So as long as awareness is not seen for what it is, the belief of the separate self is not really seen through… it’s just hiding behind the notion of a standalone awareness. Do you see this?
Yes. When I go through the exercise you set the other day eventually I end at the knowing or awareness. Thought always pops up at the end and says, arr yes you are not sensation, but you 'know it'. This is where it gets difficult. I cannot find anything outside of this knowing. I can't know, knowing, not in the way I think I can know a sensation, there is no feeling to it. The best I can describe knowing in actual experience is body is relaxed, there is no contracted feeling in the body that I identify as 'me' , attention seems to flit around the body and senses, leg, head, seeing, hearing, mental image of body, foot etc... As if different experiences simply pop in and out of awareness, There is no fixating on one sense, and there is no real tangible sense of me, so then it is felt that I must be the knowing . So yes this belief that I am awareness or knowing is creating a belief in a seperate me inside the body, or in other words I am labelling awareness as me.
. So far, the identification was on the body, which is fragile and will disintegrate. And this is frightening to the self. But being pure awareness, the knower of experience is much more comforting. So the identification from the body, moved to the identification of the knower, in the hope of preventing the self from its own death.
Yes I would absolutely agree with the story, the only thing is identifying with the knower'seems to be a false comfort. I have always been hoping for some sort of realisation, or confirmation that I am infact this 'knower' or 'pure awareness' but it hasn't happened. And when I look for awareness or the knower I don't actually find anything. So what use is it even if it cannot die, knowing, without something to know is simply no experience, and no experience well that's pretty much what I equate death with.
.
But what if that this self, who is so desperate to stay alive, has never ever existed?
This might seems to be frightening to the seeming self, at least, as long as the self is taken seriously.

But, if there has never ever been a self in the first place, then there is nothing that could die! And nothing will die when the body stops functioning.
Yes the thought 'i never existed' feels as scary as 'i am going to die'. At times the fear arises and it's so strong I turn away from looking, but I'm going to try to stay with it if it as it arises.
.So the question is, how much do you want to find and identify with a ‘tangible’ awareness/consciousness in the hope of some sorts of afterlife?
Well the thing is now I'm starting to really look at this idea, I'm starting to realise my belief in it is shakenn and I am open to the idea that this is a thought/belief.
. And how much do you want to stop this whole search of an eternal life, and seeing that this whole search on behalf of the self is just an illusion, and in reality there is nothing to afraid of, since there is nothing that could die?
Yes I am willing to give up looking for an immortal self. Even though it does frighten me. But if the fear only really exists because of a belief in something that isn't true, then I would rather go through the the fear. Although the belief in 'myself' as awareness feels shaken, as I realise 'I' can't directly experience awareness . I feel sensation which confirms awareness is present and then thought says I am awareness or knowing and when I die awareness will survive and maybe I will know something or someone else. As in maybe I'll get another body or I'll be surrounded by a puddle of light and love. So I know the last sentence is just hope or imagination because I don't know. But how do I shake the belief that I'm awareness? Or that there is a me/personal awareness?
. Do you see that the notion of eternal life is just an invention on behalf of a fear?
Yes, totally.

Thanks Rachel

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Vivien
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Mon May 20, 2019 4:25 am

Hi Rachel,
Yes I am willing to give up looking for an immortal self. Even though it does frighten me.
Good. Then now is the time to REALLY LOOK! Don’t just ponder on this, and rely on the memory of precious looking, but always look afresh.
When I go through the exercise you set the other day eventually I end at the knowing or awareness. Thought always pops up at the end and says, arr yes you are not sensation, but you 'know it'. This is where it gets difficult.
But just because there is a thought “you know it” – does this make it so?

In order the statement “I know it” – to be true, the following things has to be there:
- an ‘I’
- and the act of knowing.

But the knowing and the known cannot be separated.
“knowing” as such doesn’t exist by itself.
An what is the ‘I’ that would be doing the knowing?

First, we have to know for sure if: awareness as such exists at all.
Then, if an independently existing stand-alone awareness could be found, then that would be only awareness found but not a me.

Saying that that awareness is the ‘me’, is just a leap of faith or an assumption. Somehow we would have to make sure, that awareness is the me. But before that, first we have to be able to find awareness itself. Without any doubt, without any object.

And even then, if an independent awareness could be found, that would only mean, that there is an independent awareness, nothing else, everything else would just a speculation.

Labelling that awareness/knower as ‘I’ is just labelling. But the ‘I’ label wouldn’t magically transform that supposed awareness/knower into a self. It’s all just imagination. Can you see this?
As if different experiences simply pop in and out of awareness,
When a sentence starts with ‘as if’ then it means that what follows is just a thought speculation.

Where that awareness waiting in the background for an object to appear and then latch onto it with its knowing or aware-ing ability?
There is no fixating on one sense, and there is no real tangible sense of me, so then it is felt that I must be the knowing . So yes this belief that I am awareness or knowing is creating a belief in a seperate me inside the body, or in other words I am labelling awareness as me.
“there is no real tangible sense of me, so then it is felt that I must be the knowing” – I don’t even understand what you mean here. But nevertheless it’s a logical conclusion. This is nothing else than the CONTENT of a THOUGHT. But where is the experiential proof for this?

Don’t look for answers in thoughts! Look what is there ‘behind’ the thoughts!
Yes I would absolutely agree with the story, the only thing is identifying with the knower'seems to be a false comfort. I have always been hoping for some sort of realisation, or confirmation that I am infact this 'knower' or 'pure awareness' but it hasn't happened. And when I look for awareness or the knower I don't actually find anything. So what use is it even if it cannot die, knowing, without something to know is simply no experience, and no experience well that's pretty much what I equate death with.
Please read your above comment carefully. And notice, that this comment is written on behalf of the self!

You have to look for the self in every sentence in that comment. Really look, and don’t just rely on the memory of a previous looking. Always look afresh.

“I have always been hoping for some sorts of realization” – What is saying that? what is it that was hoping for a realization?

“And when I look for awareness or the knower I don't actually find anything” – What is saying that? what is it that is looking for the awareness and not finding it?

“and no experience well that's pretty much what I equate death with” – who/what is saying that?

What is equating no experience with death?
the thought 'i never existed' feels as scary as 'i am going to die'. At times the fear arises and it's so strong I turn away from looking, but I'm going to try to stay with it if it as it arises.
“the thought 'i never existed' feels as scary as 'i am going to die'” – scary for WHAT EXACTLY? – Look, don’t just answer from thoughts, but look!

“I turn away from looking” – what is it exactly that is turning away from looking?

Although the belief in 'myself' as awareness feels shaken, as I realise 'I' can't directly experience awareness .
You see, this is the same belief in an “I” that could be equated with ‘awareness’.

So this sentence assumes that there are two things:
- awareness
- and the ‘I” that could directly experience awareness

So it’s not just about not finding awareness… since even though awareness cannot be found, there is still a belief that there is an ‘I’ (separate even from awareness) that could be equated or not with awareness. Do you see this?
I feel sensation which confirms awareness is present and then thought says I am awareness or knowing
So, this statement says:
- there is an ‘I’ that can feel
- there is an awareness

“I feel sensation which confirms awareness” – how on earth a sensation confirms awareness?

A sensation is a sensation. How is the conclusion made that the sensation is more than a sensation?
How is the conclusion made that sensation = awareness?
when I die awareness will survive and maybe I will know something or someone else.
“When I die, awareness will survive” – see the trick of the language here! Suddenly, the ‘I’ stopped being awareness, it has become the body, which can die. And although the ‘I’ (as body) will die, the awareness will still exist.
As in maybe I'll get another body or I'll be surrounded by a puddle of light and love.
And suddenly in the next sentence, the identification from the body, jumped the awareness, which could get another body, or be surrounded by a puddle of light.

The belief in the ‘I’ is jumping around from the body to awareness, then to a sensation, then back to the body, then to the knower…. going in circles. Can you see this?

Just even try to image this: how could a shapeless, formless, boundaries, non-tangible, non-locatable awareness, what cannot be even labelled as a ‘thing’, rather just a pure knowing, be surrounded by a buddle of light? In order this to happen, this supposed awareness has to have a shape, form, boundaries, location in space and time at the first place for this to even be considered as a slightest possibility. Can you see the impossibility of this expectation?

But how do I shake the belief that I'm awareness? Or that there is a me/personal awareness?
By really looking if this is the case. You are avoiding looking at this directly. You often rely only on the memory of precious looking, which is nothing else than a belief in this moment. You have to look and look and look and look and look….. constantly look, every time when it seems that there is an ‘I’, a ‘me’, a ‘knower’, ‘awareness’, whatever.
Every time these seem to be the case, just LOOK! And look even more!

Also, I suggest considering looking at that fear directly. The fear exercise I gave you before is most effective when the so called fear is present. Now you know how to trigger the fear. So when the fear is triggered, just look for the one who is fearful, and look for the fear itself. Since not just one who is supposedly fearful is not there, but fear itself cannot be experienced either!

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Rachszk
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Re: Die before you die

Postby Rachszk » Mon May 20, 2019 9:55 pm

Hi Vivian, so sorry typing for over an hour and my tablet crashed! I can't seem to use the save facility it doesn't work. I'll come back to this again tomorrow. I might just post everytime I've answered a couple of questions so I don't loose it all again :(.

Rachel

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Mon May 20, 2019 11:30 pm

Hi Rachel,

When you log in, there is a box called 'Remember me'. If you tick that box, then your login won't expire after a period of time, but you'll stay logged in continuously. And even next time when you come to the forum, you don't have to be logged in again. Maybe this can help.

Also, when you write, you can periodically press the 'Preview' button next to 'Submit'. Maybe this can help too.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
Posts: 4788
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Die before you die

Postby Vivien » Tue May 21, 2019 1:01 am

I've just discovered that there is a 'Save draft' button next to the 'Preview' button. Maybe this could be a solution for you.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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