Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

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enthusiasm
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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:39 am

Hello Mark,

As i sit with this questions... Actually... I'm the "water" and no quality sticks to it. It can't be qualified in any way. Bubbles just appear in that "water" and pop up into nothing

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:00 pm

OK thanks for this.

So we've looked at the "content" of experience -- thoughts, sensations, feelings -- that rise and fall in and out of "nothing" as you say.

Let's go back to something you said a few days ago:
the "me" that goes away with the worries and the fears isn't the whole Me in a way

What/where is "the whole Me"?

What does the label "Me" refer to?

Can you find it?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:16 pm

Let's go back to something you said a few days ago:
the "me" that goes away with the worries and the fears isn't the whole Me in a way

What/where is "the whole Me"?

What does the label "Me" refer to?

Can you find it?
After all this questioning I realize that just an image has been mistaken and wrongly believed to be me. Whoa... Whoa... Whoa!

The whole Me is everything everywhere.

The label "Me" refers to this thing that words cannot describe and yet they are in it. And I am it - the everything everywhere. Wow, such a relief to realize even my decisions and choices are not made by anyone. They aren't a product of a person's plans and desires. Things just happen out of nowhere and goes there again as long as there's no person to be attached to this.

Thank you!

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:12 am

Hi Tatanya,

After all this questioning I realize that just an image has been mistaken and wrongly believed to be me. Whoa... Whoa... Whoa!

Right! Just like we can see the image of our body in a mirror -- but it isn't actually the body, it's just an image -- we can see the image of our self in the mind -- but it isn't our self -- it's just an image!

Wow, such a relief to realize even my decisions and choices are not made by anyone. They aren't a product of a person's plans and desires.



Right. Can an image make a decision?

The label "Me" refers to this thing that words cannot describe and yet they are in it. And I am it - the everything everywhere.

OK let's take a while to unpack this. For many people it's quite a jump from "I am this body" to "I am everything"! Sometimes the "I" can hang out there -- let's check that this isn't the case.

The "I" that is everything -- what does that refer to, exactly?

Do you own anything that shows up?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:24 am

Wow, such a relief to realize even my decisions and choices are not made by anyone. They aren't a product of a person's plans and desires.
Right. Can an image make a decision?
No, absolutely not. An image is just an image not able to do anything.

The label "Me" refers to this thing that words cannot describe and yet they are in it. And I am it - the everything everywhere.

OK let's take a while to unpack this. For many people it's quite a jump from "I am this body" to "I am everything"! Sometimes the "I" can hang out there -- let's check that this isn't the case.

The "I" that is everything -- what does that refer to, exactly?

Do you own anything that shows up?
Good morning, Mark,

I see how what's been written might be taken as if it's taken by the mind as being everything. Maybe incorrect words were used, not the best ones to describe my experience. It's more like shallow, empty vastness. Nothingness is a good word although it is a word again. That is such a paradox to be in a form which is unable to touch the essence of the Being and still attempt to describe it, to point at it.

☀️

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:23 am

Right, words are tricky aren't they? I don't think there is any "right" way to describe it -- the Buddha put it nicely when he said "In the seen, just the seen" (i.e. there's no need for a "me" for seeing to happen).

What's important is that it is a description that makes sense in your experience. Could you look at the question below?

Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

thanks!
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:17 am

Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

thanks!

To me the illusion is born from the conditioning of the mind in today's society. Since the beginning of one's life living with parents and being raised by people believing the mind is where our power is. The evolution of the population on the planet is not too advanced yet and we have been living by the beliefs that we are the ones that do and act, and make choices and decisions. The mind is such an instrument. Even though we've survived thanks to the most evolved part of our brains, we still keep deep and strong to our instincts which are survival instincts. But they no longer serve us in the world as it is now. So we need time and time again to recondition the mind and to soften all these primal fears, to validate them but to also let them go and start being led by higher and more subtle beliefs about our true essence
By our true nature. In fact the mind is just an organ of the body in a way, invisible, untouchable, same as the heart, but instead of pumping blood, it "pumps" thoughts. We are supposed to use the mind to serve in our advancement, in our evolution, not to block nor stop it.

Thank you!

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:11 am

Thanks Tatanya,

now is a good time to explore all beliefs that the mind comes up with.

In fact the mind is just an organ of the body in a way, invisible, untouchable, same as the heart, but instead of pumping blood, it "pumps" thoughts.

Right. Pumping thoughts is a nice analogy!

Can I ask -- what is it that "evolves"?

What is your direct experience of "brain" or of "the planet"?

thanks!
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:18 am

Right. Pumping thoughts is a nice analogy!

Thanks, I just realized that a few weeks ago and was amazed by the way the picture of that popped up in the mind.
Can I ask -- what is it that "evolves"?

What is your direct experience of "brain" or of "the planet"?

thanks!
That which evolves, so to speak, are the thoughts that the new conditioning of the mind give birth to as I see it. Maybe still not entirely opened to it but it never ends anyway.

Direct experience of "brain" or "the planet" is just the collective field of most commonly encountered thoughts and beliefs, the most commonly encountered experiences for people - the majority of beings are still living in suffering, "victim mode" from how I see it.

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:03 am

Thanks for the clarification Tatanya.

Can a thought evolve? Are some thoughts better than other thoughts? What is it that makes the evaluation? Are thoughts self aware?
the majority of beings are still living in suffering

These beings, how do they show up in direct experience? Are they separate from "me"?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:10 am

Thanks for the clarification Tatanya.

Can a thought evolve? Are some thoughts better than other thoughts? What is it that makes the evaluation? Are thoughts self aware?

No, that's the accumulated evolutionary experience up until now which we witness.

the majority of beings are still living in suffering

These beings, how do they show up in direct experience? Are they separate from "me"?
These are all different manifestations of "Me". Nothing is separate, only experiencing from different perspective.

Thank you,
Tatyana

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:21 pm

Thank you for your patience Tatanya.

Because you moved rather rapidly into a realisation of no separation there were a few steps in the inquiry that got missed out. Can we just check that nothing has been overlooked? Could we have a look at thought?

In your introductory statement you said you wanted a guide to confirm your views and I said I couldn't do that but I could help you see through those views. My advice is to trust your experience, trust the seeing, let go of the need for any particular views.


What is a view anyway? Isn't it just a sequence of thoughts that seems to pop up regularly? So let's look at thought:

1) Where do thoughts come from and where do they go to?

2) Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?

3) It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully. Is there an organised sequence OR is that just another thought that says ‘one thought follows another thought’?

5) Observe a thought. Did you do anything to make that thought appear. When a thought appears, are you ever given an option to avoid that thought?

6) The thoughts that appear -- what is their audience? What are they "talking to"

thanks!
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:47 pm

Thank you for your patience Tatanya.

It's not an issue at all. Patience is my nature, there is no hurry to get anywhere anyway. And also I am surprised how the answers to these questions come to my mind so flawlessly but I was feeling that I was so close, yet something minuscule was missing which I feel I got really fast after we started our communication. I feel complete and whole already and of course the questions below are totally welcome. It's without a doubt that I follow my own intuition and experience. All that is typed is from my own point of view.

Because you moved rather rapidly into a realisation of no separation there were a few steps in the inquiry that got missed out. Can we just check that nothing has been overlooked? Could we have a look at thought?

In your introductory statement you said you wanted a guide to confirm your views and I said I couldn't do that but I could help you see through those views. My advice is to trust your experience, trust the seeing, let go of the need for any particular views.


What is a view anyway? Isn't it just a sequence of thoughts that seems to pop up regularly? So let's look at thought:

1) Where do thoughts come from and where do they go to?

Thoughts are just appearing, like I already mentioned with the heart pumping blood analogy, they just show up and go to nothingness as no attention is paid to them, there is just noticing. They are empty of content when I look at them just like the air balloons which bubble up under water - objects deprived from meaning. No story to attach to them.

2) Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?

There is no way to determine the next thought that is going to appear. They are totally surprising, new, fresh.

3) It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully. Is there an organised sequence OR is that just another thought that says ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Thoughts only seem to follow a story if their content is paid attention to. They are completely random object-thoughts which are only that by their nature - another conception of the mind.

5) Observe a thought. Did you do anything to make that thought appear. When a thought appears, are you ever given an option to avoid that thought?

I am not able to avoid a thought, cannot pick nor choose any. Thoughts are just "pumped" by the mind without any active participation.

6) The thoughts that appear -- what is their audience? What are they "talking to"?

thanks!

The thoughts that appear are talking to the mind that can attach to them a story, a meaning. It can construct many and different stories which could all be so diverse, so versatile. But once seen beyond them, it cannot be unseen. For example I experience once while on a walk that even a question appeared: "Am I really called Tatyana? What if I was given another name? And what if I was in a different body? Different gender? Different race? I'd be completely different person by all the labels that are given, but the Knowing in the body-mind instrument would still be the same Knowing which operates inside it currently."

I want more questioning, if you see it appropriate. I am enjoying this process and the openness I discover.

<3

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:24 pm

Thanks for the clarification Tatanya.
The thoughts that appear are talking to the mind that can attach to them a story, a meaning. It can construct many and different stories which could all be so diverse, so versatile. But once seen beyond them, it cannot be unseen.

Right. Here at LU we look at the difference between what can be seen/experienced directly -- and the interpretation or "thought story" about that experience. As you say many different stories can be constructed about what is happening -- but these stories are made of thoughts. The most fundamental story is that "I" am an individual, separate person in a world full of other people and objects.

So could you look at the questions below and answer them -- look to experience and not to the mind -- what you see not what you think.


Thanks!


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: Explore Life. Meet Yourself.

Postby enthusiasm » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:02 pm

Hi, Mark,

Such a deep inspection is going on in the mind with all these question. Love it!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no and has never been real separation of the Self. It's just the thoughts, sensations and feelings that have been believed in from a single point of perceiving which has caused the feeling, the belief of separation since each and every one of us represents a different incarnation of the Being.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is created by the mind unable to see the whole, not seeing that the Pure Knowing Presence is its nature and its origin. The mind only knows what it's been exposed to to a point. It believes in separation which could lead to death. It is not able to see that there is no death, because its existence is dependent on a human body which can die. When we are born we are completely vulnerable and threatened by the environment as our bodies physical survival depends on their basic needs being met - safe shelter, food, the body depends on others to survive. So as the body grows up and the dependencies for physical survival stay unchanged unconsciously to the mind because it keeps feeling threatened and in danger if exiled from the group/from others. There is no one to instruct the mind, to expose it to new conditioning that from one point on the humans are safe and these unconscious beliefs stay and direct the peoples' lives. People mimic their environment and the behavior of "others" believing if they do the same, they will survive, that this will guarantee safety, success. Humans led by the mind want to follow a pattern, a map. They want instructions instead of letting themselves explore and follow their own inner guidance which is much wiser than the mind. That in actuality is Life, the "I" living through the physical body. People believe that they need to copy another's way of doing/being because they don't trust enough in themselves, they fear failure, they don't want to suffer the consequences of trying and learning because it might cause pain/suffering, people still believe that they should know and be able to do things from scratch, for the first time. The labels good and bad which are products of the mind are taken too seriously. Pain is not being taken as part of the natural evolution as a pointer but is avoided at all coast. And this strive for one-sided happiness is causing suffering by itself. It's not too popular to expose to negative emotions as part of the natural growth and that's how people keep living half-lives. The separate self is frightened, stingy, egoistic, like a smaller/half human that needs to expand and grow, to evolve. Evolution=Life expanding and becoming more complex. But actually what's needed is to remove all the unnecessary baggage accumulated by the mind and see that nothing that it has created is real. It is all imaginary. Devote of substance.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

After seeing this I am able to see from a distance the mind's chatter and just rest and witness it. I don't feel I need to do anything specific. And in the same time doing just happens and that brings me so much relief. Now I can see what freedom is talked about in the ancient books. True Freedom, Joy, Love. I've always found it hard to talk and to express myself as a separate from everybody else. And yet it is weird to talk about the people who have not seen this yet as "them". I want to include myself in every sentence where I've typed "they" with "we" but I also see how I am not as the most people acting from the mind anymore. I see when it tries to take the driver seat and I politely ask it to move away.
And in the same time I see how it struggles and how it creates the suffering, but I am more and more committed to weaken its hold realizing that's a process not a one night thing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

What did the last push for me was to picture I am an endless white space, unchanging, unattached, unburdened, just being still. Then I could see how all different thoughts, sensations, feelings, emotions stained that white endless space. And they were just appearing... and then disappearing. This mind image opened my sight to the realization that the mind is also a stain to that enormous white space. An air bubble in the water floating around.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This one is really interesting to me. Last Sunday I was driving and at some point the knowing that the choice which road to take was not coming from my actual doing, I realized that decisions are not for me to take, choices are not for me to make. Intentions, control and free will only feel like that, they create the respective, specific sensations in the body and thoughts streams in the mind according and along with them. They all are different kind of thoughts, the mind has given them different meaning and labels. And yet they are still mind products. I've no responsibility for what so ever. I'm just being the observing presence which witnesses them arising and fading.

Experience examples: noticing, witnessing, observing, being.

6) Anything to add?

A few weeks ago I was in complete desperation. It was devastating to me because I could see how much I know intellectually but that never left me without struggle, it was really hard and I could not understand what I was missing, why even thought all the knowledge was in me, I could not come to a point where I am in peace with the pain, where I live what I know, I could not turn the knowledge into practice and live by it. I could see how the mind is even bored with the same stories being said again and again. I could reason and put into words so well all I knew, but it could not have a real effect in my life. The mind was restless, unstable, running around like crazy. And it's not that it does not try to do these things, but it's seen from a different angle now. The missing peace was the clear seeing how thoughts, feelings and sensations are created out of nowhere. Seeing there is no doer of any of them made the understanding sink from the head into the body. I can now really understand the statement that we are all one. Also this is how I see real Freedom and Love - no expectations, no projections, nothing to do, nothing to look for, nothing to attain, nothing to improve. Whatever comes - welcome. And I just am and observe the impulses coming from the Being manifesting.

Thank you!


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