insight

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:04 am

Hi Alaya,
"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?
those thoughts point to the actual experience of thought, bringing further thinking
Yes, and thoughts about thought are AE of thought and are nothing but thought stories/fantasy.
So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
looks like a strong tendency in believing that thought is real,
only when I stop and look at this thought and its reality - it ceases and changes into another thought
What is it exactly that believes that thought is real?

Belief is the actual experience of a thought ABOUT a belief. A belief is a thought, just a plain old thought, but it is a thought that is supported by only other thoughts.
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
thinking takes me straight to the story in the future or in the past, most of the todays thinking is pretty much made up and engaged around story which brings emotional response - even this is made up - all stories are self centred, though there is no consistency in them, one minute the story brings sadness and then it changes into something else, following it feels endless ; like thinking is endless and inconsistent, at some point it came to me that it's pointless to take it so seriously, even when the emotional response feels real
Yes, nice observations. An emotion is label + sensation plus thoughts ABOUT the emotion, who it is affecting and why. Thoughts pointing to more thoughts. Paradoxically it is a good idea to feel the sensations to their fullest and not just write them off as nothing.

Okay…so let’s continue to look at the nature of thought.

Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:17 pm

hello Kay,


Where are they coming from and going to?
thinking just is, it's like seeing, which just is
thoughts appear and reappear as another thought

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
no, at the time of meditation I just sat with observing thoughts appearing
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
no, because I didn't even know what's coming
Can you predict your next thought?
not really! :)
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
i can bring affirmations to my mind, though once i leave the mind 'loose' the thoughts just come and go,some are pleasant some are unpleasant,

[quoteCan you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?][/quote]

i can choose to distract myself from painful thought but can't choose not to have it in the first place
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
no, if i try to pick a thought, another appears
one can focus on other things than thinking, like on breathing, though the thinking capacity will be there
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
in the middle of thinking? the attention just goes to another thought

Alaya

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:54 am

Hello Alaya,
Can you predict your next thought?
not really! :)
Not really or no?

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
i can bring affirmations to my mind, though once i leave the mind 'loose' the thoughts just come and go,some are pleasant some are unpleasant,
How do you do that? How do you bring affirmations to your mind?
Where do you go to find what particular affirmation you want to think? In other words where is this storage tank of thoughts and affirmations? Then without knowing that you are going to choose affirmations, how do you do that?

So what I am asking you to do is describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
i can choose to distract myself from painful thought but can't choose not to have it in the first place
See the focus exercise further down.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
no, if i try to pick a thought, another appears
And how would you know what thought you would pick unless you were aware of that thought? A thought appears saying “I am going to choose a happy thought”, and the next thought appears “it’s a beautiful day”. How did you know you were going to choose “it’s a beautiful day”?

one can focus on other things than thinking, like on breathing, though the thinking capacity will be there
And how does one choose to do that without a thought saying “I am going to choose to focus on my breath now”?

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does.

Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
in the middle of thinking? the attention just goes to another thought
Look carefully here
Can you have two thoughts at the one time? Are there two thoughts hanging in the mind waiting for you to choose which one you are going to pay attention to and which one you are not going to pay attention to?


Where exactly is the middle of a thought? Where does one thought end and another begin?


You never answered this question. Could you do so please.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:03 pm

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.
this was a random number, there isn't any 'me' choosing the number
there wasn't any 'me' who knows or doesn't know about the number - the thought of a number brings the thought of a 2-digit number in this experiment;
So what I am asking you to do is describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?
thinking just arises in connection with what is happening - internal and external conditions
it's a narrative, it's a story created upon what is happening in the actual experience
the 'me' creating is thought already - with hearing a sound eg a bird the thought comes 'i hear a bird'
'i' don't create a sound, 'i' don't create a thought, 'i' is a thought and upon that thought, there is a thought of 'me hearing a sound'
And how would you know what thought you would pick unless you were aware of that thought? A thought appears saying “I am going to choose a happy thought”, and the next thought appears “it’s a beautiful day”. How did you know you were going to choose “it’s a beautiful day”?
I don't, there is just an awareness of a current thought
it's same as in the first exercise - think of a 2-digit number and again I can't predict a number
Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
it moves by itself
when there is focus on attention, the sense of 'I' is not there
Hold focus on the breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
no, the attention moves from the breath to think, sensations, feelings, sounds without 'me' controlling,
it seems pretty random!
What moves attention?
there is awareness of breath and then awareness of sensations etc
awareness moves awareness, it's not controlled by anything it simply arises
Is thought in control of attention?


'thought in control' is just another thought, thought is not in control of anything
thought is not in control of thinking either

Can you have two thoughts at the one time? Are there two thoughts hanging in the mind waiting for you to choose which one you are going to pay attention to and which one you are not going to pay attention to?


Where exactly is the middle of a thought? Where does one thought end and another begin
I can't have two thoughts at the same time
there isn't a storage with thoughts - thoughts don't wait anywhere
and there is no 'me' paying attention to anything either - there is attention and thinking creating a story of what is happening, and imaginary story

the thought is empty of any inherent existence , when i want to hold on to thought the attention moves to another thought - it disappears
there isn't the middle of a thought , or a beginning , or an end , I can't find it

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
yes, I can't find any logic here,
random thoughts just appear with no order

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:29 am

Hi Alaya,
Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.
this was a random number, there isn't any 'me' choosing the number
there wasn't any 'me' who knows or doesn't know about the number - the thought of a number brings the thought of a 2-digit number in this experiment;
Yes, so as you can see there is no knowing what number was going to appear. Even if a thought appeared saying “I knew number 54 was going to appear”…that is just another appearing thought, after the appearance of “54”!
So what I am asking you to do is describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?
thinking just arises in connection with what is happening - internal and external conditions
Thought A appears “There’s no-one here to do anything. Experience happens”
Thought B then appears saying “I can clearly see it, but it’s still ongoing process for me”.
Now when we look at this, does thought A have any knowledge of thought B? Does thought B have any knowledge of thought A? It may seem that way, but when we look closely, what is found?

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
it moves by itself
when there is focus on attention, the sense of 'I' is not there
Yes…so even from this, is it seen that there is no “I”, that it is just a thought. If there was an actual “I”…then why would the “sense of I’ disappear? So the sense of “I” comes and goes, like all thoughts…as it is just a thought.
Can you see this?

Hold focus on the breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
no, the attention moves from the breath to think, sensations, feelings, sounds without 'me' controlling,
it seems pretty random!
Yep! :)
What moves attention?
there is awareness of breath and then awareness of sensations etc
awareness moves awareness, it's not controlled by anything it simply arises
Can you find an “awareness” that is moving awareness or is focus/attention just happening? Can you find an entity called ‘awareness’ anywhere?
Is thought in control of attention?
'thought in control' is just another thought, thought is not in control of anything
thought is not in control of thinking either
Beautiful, yes! Let’s take a closer look at the idea that there is a controller, chooser and decider!

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
yes, I can't find any logic here,
random thoughts just appear with no order
Yes, it is just a thought that suggest thoughts are in sequential order.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:15 pm

Hi Kay,
What is it exactly that believes that thought is real?
it is another thought, I see it here, you also have explained it clearly
a belief is a thought
Thought A appears “There’s no-one here to do anything. Experience happens”
Thought B then appears saying “I can clearly see it, but it’s still ongoing process for me”.
Now when we look at this, does thought A have any knowledge of thought B? Does thought B have any knowledge of thought A? It may seem that way, but when we look closely, what is found?
Focus on focusing, attention itse
what is found is that thoughts simply appear, they don't communicate with each other , they don't have any knowledge of the previous thought,
there is a focus to one thought then it moves to a sensation or a different thought

Can you find an “awareness” that is moving awareness or is focus/attention just happening? Can you find an entity called ‘awareness’ anywhere?
awareness is what is
it is just happening
it is the actual experience of what is, not an entity, it foes beyond form, thinking etc, it is expressed through form, thinking etc


1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just

the movement isn't controlled at all
the thought was there as secondary-in the background of the whole experience
the movement followed after reading about the exercise and the thought was there only momentarily
then the focus/attention moved to looking at a hand, then to sensation, then a different thought appeared
there was no 'controller' there, just a movement of a hand followed by another action - just looking at a hand

then the thought appeared - 'who is controlling the hand?' but that was just a thought,no controller found

the thought didn't make the decision, there was just turning the hand - I was not able to track or say when and how and for how long the hand will be turning over
each time I did the exercise the movement was different - shorter or longer or slower or faster, and every time the attention moved to other senses, it stayed with a thought only for a bit
when i tried to control it it didn't work either , i couldn't find that what is controlling it
as the attention moved on each time - so yes , no logic here

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:10 am

Hello Alaya,

Can you do me a favour please and highlight the question being answered with the quote function individually.
Can you find an “awareness” that is moving awareness or is focus/attention just happening? Can you find an entity called ‘awareness’ anywhere?
awareness is what is
it is just happening
it is the actual experience of what is, not an entity, it foes beyond form, thinking etc, it is expressed through form, thinking etc
Yes, there is not actual experience of awareness, it is not an entity. Awaring simply happens. The word ‘awareness’ has so many beliefs attached to it…that is why I don’t use it. I use the word ‘experience’ or THIS.
the movement followed after reading about the exercise and the thought was there only momentarily
Is that true? Did these words on the screen make you do it? Was there a choice to do it or not?

What is the AE of these words? Are they AE of sound, smell, taste, sensation, colour or thought?

then the focus/attention moved to looking at a hand, then to sensation, then a different thought appeared
there was no 'controller' there, just a movement of a hand followed by another action - just looking at a hand
Here is an exercise that looks at the idea of the hand creating the sensation. It also looks at the idea of cause and effect and the body. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

then the thought appeared - 'who is controlling the hand?' but that was just a thought,no controller found
Lovely.
the thought didn't make the decision, there was just turning the hand - I was not able to track or say when and how and for how long the hand will be turning over
each time I did the exercise the movement was different - shorter or longer or slower or faster, and every time the attention moved to other senses, it stayed with a thought only for a bit
when i tried to control it it didn't work either , i couldn't find that what is controlling it
as the attention moved on each time - so yes , no logic here
Nice! It’s like when you find yourself absent mindedly scratching an itch.

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:52 pm

Hello Kay,
''the movement followed after reading about the exercise and the thought was there only momentarily'';

Is that true? Did these words on the screen make you do it? Was there a choice to do it or not?

What is the AE of these words? Are they AE of sound, smell, taste, sensation, colour or thought?

the AE of these words is of thought
so thinking happened
first, there was a focus on reading - AE of colour/shape
then thought appeared - ae of thinking
then looking at the hand - ae of colour
then feeling the hand - ae of sensation
the back to thinking - ae of thought
Ok! I get it now!
once I see it through the Actual Experience and unpack it this way there is no one who makes me do anything and no one who controls it
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
yes, with eyes closed I could easily tune into the hand's sensations
when opened me eyes i could first see the hand and the sensation was in the background, then sensation and looking was happening - as if from the broader attention/awareness; there was no 'me' doing it, actually the experience of looking and sensation was bigger/wider then the experience in the body, if this makes sense

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
the actual experience of shape, colour and the actual experience of sensation can happen at the same time
actually even the AE of thought can happen within the same time
it depends on what i focus on
can't find hierarchy , the focus just moves from sensation to thinking
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
the sensation can't come from the sight - it happens also when eyes are closed
so the sensations happen, whenever i bring the attention to the body there is a sensation
the thought is saying ' i am looking at my hand' so yes, there is a link with a hand and seeing through thinking
though thinking of something or memory of something can bring a sensation too

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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:54 pm

sorry! I've messed up the quotes system in the above reply!

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:15 pm

Hello Alaya,

Before clicking on the 'submit' button, click on the 'preview' button and it will show you what your post will look like, so you can make edits and correct errors etc.
What is the AE of these words? Are they AE of sound, smell, taste, sensation, colour or thought?
Ok! I get it now!
once I see it through the Actual Experience and unpack it this way there is no one who makes me do anything and no one who controls it
Lovely! So you see how important it is to unpack what thought is pointing to, to see what the actual experience is.
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
the actual experience of shape, colour and the actual experience of sensation can happen at the same time
actually even the AE of thought can happen within the same time
it depends on what i focus on
can't find hierarchy , the focus just moves from sensation to thinking
Yes, there is no hierarchy, “focus just moves from sensation to thinking”.
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
the sensation can't come from the sight - it happens also when eyes are closed
Yes, exactly. So if the hand was the creator of the sensation, then when you closed your eyes, the sensation should stop...yes?
so the sensations happen, whenever i bring the attention to the body there is a sensation
Hmmm….you just said that the sensation can’t come from the sight of the hand because it also happens when the eyes are closed, when the hand isn't seen. So when the eyes are closed, how is it known that a hand is creating the sensation?

Please close your eyes for this exercise and just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear about a table or hand and put them aside ie IGNORE them.

Place a hand on a table.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and table? Or is there simply AE of sensation?
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

the thought is saying ' i am looking at my hand' so yes, there is a link with a hand and seeing through thinking
What is the AE of ‘hand’?

Now look again, is there an actual link between ‘hand’ and sensation or is it just another thought that says so?

though thinking of something or memory of something can bring a sensation too
Memory is a concept. We will look at memory later.

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:13 pm

hi Kay,
thanks for the reply,
Hmmm….you just said that the sensation can’t come from the sight of the hand because it also happens when the eyes are closed, when the hand isn't seen. So when the eyes are closed, how is it known that a hand is creating the sensation?
hand is a label , there is a sensation that's the actual experience
when I close my eyes ,in the actual experience i can experience the sensation, the thinking adds that it is in the hand,or that it is the hand
Place a hand on a table.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things - hand and table? Or is there simply AE of sensation?
in the actual experience, there is a sensation
2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'sensation'?
just the sensation
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?
there is a sensation
the word 'feeling' is actually a label, it is a thought when the thinking of 'me' appears
when i focus on sensation there is just a sensation , the boundries between hand and table are not that clear - only when i look at them they seem clear
Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?
sensation is in the actual experience , feeling comes with the idea of I/me; feeling without the concept of I is simply a sensation
Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?
in AE sensation there is sensation, a feeler is a thought, adding a story to this sensation
If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
when it's unpacked this way... so the sensation is labelled and labelled again with the concept of me/I
yes, the feeler is a concept!
so it is actually much easier to stay with the sensation rather than making it into a story or at least seeing the story as a story, as a concept , a thought
the thought is saying ' i am looking at my hand' so yes, there is a link with a hand and seeing through thinking
What is the AE of ‘hand’?
hand is a name/lable and the actual experience is of thought
Now look again, is there an actual link between ‘hand’ and sensation or is it just another thought that says so?
ok, there is a sensation as the acutal experience
the thought says 'there is a hand on the table'

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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:09 am

Hi Alaya,

You do a wonderful job of exploring and looking!
Place a hand on a table.
Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on table' and answer from what you can FIND.
3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'sensation'?
What do you find?
there is a sensation
the word 'feeling' is actually a label, it is a thought when the thinking of 'me' appears
when i focus on sensation there is just a sensation , the boundries between hand and table are not that clear - only when i look at them they seem clear
Nice. Can an actual table be found in the sensation itself? Does the sensation suggest in any way that it is a table or a hand?
Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?
sensation is in the actual experience , feeling comes with the idea of I/me; feeling without the concept of I is simply a sensation
Beautiful!
Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?
in AE sensation there is sensation, a feeler is a thought, adding a story to this sensation
Yes…in order for there to be a feeler, there would need to be a you that is separate to experience itself that is being labelled as sensation.
If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
when it's unpacked this way... so the sensation is labelled and labelled again with the concept of me/I
lovely, yes!
yes, the feeler is a concept!
so it is actually much easier to stay with the sensation rather than making it into a story or at least seeing the story as a story, as a concept , a thought
Yep. How can a sensation do, be, say or feel anything? It is the thoughts ABOUT the sensation that ‘create’ the problem such as suffering, pain and the idea of the separate self etc.
the thought is saying ' i am looking at my hand' so yes, there is a link with a hand and seeing through thinking
What is the AE of ‘hand’?
hand is a name/lable and the actual experience is of thought
Yes, exactly. The label ‘hand’ is AE of thought and not AE of a hand.
Now look again, is there an actual link between ‘hand’ and sensation or is it just another thought that says so?
ok, there is a sensation as the acutal experience
the thought says 'there is a hand on the table'
Exactly.

Let’s examine the solidity of the head.

Please IGNORE all thoughts and images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them

Without thought, how big is your head?
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought, does it have a location?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:32 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for this.
Nice. Can an actual table be found in the sensation itself? Does the sensation suggest in any way that it is a table or a hand?
no, there is a sensation, a point of pressure - that's the AE of sensation
the label table or hand is given by a thought
Yep. How can a sensation do, be, say or feel anything? It is the thoughts ABOUT the sensation that ‘create’ the problem such as suffering, pain and the idea of the separate self etc.
Exactly! I need to really remember about this one!
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?
there were thoughts about a hand and head though in AE was a sensation
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
very alive sensations,
the thoughts come really quick wanting to name it
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them
welll there is a sensation,nothing in between
the thoughts are labelling the points of pressure eg hand and head or veins etc
Without thought, how big is your head?
i don't know, doesn't seem to be possible to answer without using a thought
the label head doesn't make sense without using further thining
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
no it doesn't , the inside and outside are also thoughts
Without thought, does it have a location?
as above, without using thought, the label location makes no sense

so it doesn't have a location

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:08 am

Hello Alaya,

Here is an interesting clip about the correlation between sight and sensation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
very alive sensations,
the thoughts come really quick wanting to name it
Yep…thoughts come very quick! :)

If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘very alive?
Is there any inherent aliveness in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘very alive’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation labelled as ‘very alive’ …what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?

Replace the word ‘very alive’ with the word ‘fear’ and redo the exercise to get a good understanding of how thought compares sensations.

Let me know what you find.

And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them
welll there is a sensation,nothing in between
the thoughts are labelling the points of pressure eg hand and head or veins etc
Are there POINTS (plural) of pressure ie POINTS of sensation?
How is it known that there are multiple sensations and that there is a distance between the sensations? Can distance be found?

Without thought, how big is your head?
i don't know, doesn't seem to be possible to answer without using a thought
the label head doesn't make sense without using further thining
Umm…did you find an actual head when you did the exercise?
What is the AE of ‘head’?
So, without thought, how big is your head?

Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
no it doesn't , the inside and outside are also thoughts
Yes…there is no head to be found in actual experience. Thought suggests the sensation is something labelled as a ‘head’. Can a head be found in AE? Or only thoughts ABOUT a head?
Without thought, does it have a location?
as above, without using thought, the label location makes no sense
so it doesn't have a location
Yes. There is no head to have a location and does the sensation labelled as 'head' have a location.

Okay, so now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:40 pm

Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:26 pm

Hello Kay,

thanks for the clip, looks so convincing!
this is only possible with the eyes open, right?

If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘very alive?
Is there any inherent aliveness in the sensation itself?
no, there is only sensation
sensation is not static therefore the thinking labels it as alive

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘very alive’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation labelled as ‘very alive’ …what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?
no difference found
actually, the sensation was the same

Replace the word ‘very alive’ with the word ‘fear’ and redo the exercise to get a good understanding of how thought compares sensations.

Let me know what you find.
the sensation is exactly the same!
it is easy to actually believe in fear through this exercise...
so i tell myself a story and here it is;
Are there POINTS (plural) of pressure ie POINTS of sensation?
How is it known that there are multiple sensations and that there is a distance between the sensations? Can distance be found?
points of pressure is the actual sensation
if i put fingers on both sides of my head i just feel the sensation, no distance found
in the AE there is sensation found
Umm…did you find an actual head when you did the exercise?
What is the AE of ‘head’?
So, without thought, how big is your head?
I found an actual experience of sensation labelled as pressure
also AE of head is the AE of thought,
touhing my head is the AE of sensation
no head in AE found, only sensations

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?
I'm not sure I get it
what i see is only what i can imagine, i can only think of my face but can't see it even in my imagination,can think of it from the idea of how it looks like


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