So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

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Stephen77
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So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby Stephen77 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:40 am

New Guy here!

Look... I'm skipping my spiritual hullabaloo history since it's pretty much the same and repetitive any seekers.

But... I need to share an experience if you like... it might be related to this or I might be full of it...

Anyway, years ago I experimenting with a certain frequency I've created with Brainwave Entrainment track. I've put into my iPod, plugged in my headphones and put in some blindfold to deepen my experience (to lazy to keep my eyes fully closed). As I was meditating on this track... meaning as I was focusing my attention to the noise built into mp3 track... I jolted, I sort freaked out for a couple of seconds had this unusual experience. To put it into words... "I was there but... I was Not There!" meaning I lose all bodily sensations... none for a couple of seconds! It was just Blankness, Darkness, Emptiness yet there was a Presence there... then I settled down into this calm... thoughts are still there yet... they don't bother me anymore! It's like a Blanket of Calm, of Silence that I'll never forget.

Hope that helps or I've just wasted words regurgitating nothing...

Yeah! I've tried the Stare at the Assumption that there is "No I" and ask if it is it true thingy. Nothing Happened except the the thought that pop out "I never existed".

A little bit of pushing... heck even some kicking in the right direction is much appreciated! :)

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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby mag » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:18 am

Hi Stephen,

I could be guiding you, would that be OK?

My names is Henri, I'm planning to get my nick changed soon to be my name not "mag".

Best regards,

Henri
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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby Stephen77 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:16 pm

That's cool! Thanks!

I guess I'm not there yet. But I'm starting to have a glimpse of it. I'm still reading the book gateless gatecrashers but I've read Ciaran Healy's "The Thunder and Sunshine" that lead me to this. This is like Zen Transmission 3.0 for the Modern Age. I'm ready! Let's do this!

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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby mag » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:44 pm

That's cool! Thanks!

I guess I'm not there yet. But I'm starting to have a glimpse of it. I'm still reading the book gateless gatecrashers but I've read Ciaran Healy's "The Thunder and Sunshine" that lead me to this. This is like Zen Transmission 3.0 for the Modern Age. I'm ready! Let's do this!
Great! So just a few things before we get started:
  • I will be making questions to you and expect you to answer honestly based on your immediate experience. Stories and philosophies are nice, but not needed here :)
  • we both commit to writing at least one message per day unless otherwise informed
  • you can leave all other materials and practices for the duration of this dialogue
Do these expectations sound like you would be able to commit to them?

If yes, we can start.

I would like to know your expectations about liberation. What would change in your life?
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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby Stephen77 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:50 pm

I would like to know your expectations about liberation?
Expectations about Liberations... None! Well... except to just LOOK & NOTICE that fiction that there is... NO I. Just that Truth! No Rainbows and Unicorns! :)
What would change in your life?
Absolutely Nothing! Except... A Change of Perspective that's is all! And the Chop Wood, Carry Water Zen Thingy! Live in Reality.

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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby mag » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:04 pm

Good, it seems that you are down to earth with your expectations which is generally a positive thing. It's easier to receive, when one doesn't expect too much.

Let's continue with our classic LU question. What kind of thoughts and feelings are triggered when I declare a honest statement of Truth:

"Stephen, you don't exist, and never did"
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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby mag » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:53 pm

Since it's late in this time zone, I will give you my next bunch of questions now, and will address your both answers in the morning of mine.

Stephen, STOP.

.. and describe what kind of raw sense data is perceived in the place labeled "Stephen":

Describe in great detail what is 1) heard, 2) smelled, 3) sensed, 4) tasted and 5) seen in that space of "you".

After reading your description I would be able to sit as "Stephen" here.

Are you able to find any sense of self in the sensations that you described?

If not, where is the "I"? Can you point to the "I" with your finger?

Is "I" found in thoughts? Is "I" equivalent to mind?

Do you have any idea where the "I" is lurking? From where do you get the sense of being "Stephen", right now?

If you close your eyes, can you feel that "I-am-ness", a sense of being alive, which has allways been there?

What is that which labels that impersonal "I-am-ness" as "Stephen"?
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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby Stephen77 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:06 am

Stephen, STOP.

.. and describe what kind of raw sense data is perceived in the place labeled "Stephen":

Describe in great detail what is 1) heard, 2) smelled, 3) sensed, 4) tasted and 5) seen in that space of "you".

After reading your description I would be able to sit as "Stephen" here.
When I look and notice this person called "Stephen"... Hmm...

Stephen is sitting in a chair, typing away in my keyboard, looking in my widescreen monitor. Chillin'.

What is seen in the space of "me" is my name, this image (form), this personality, memories, experiences, values, beliefs, habits is what I see in the space of "me" which are pretty much all just thoughts (and some feelings).
Are you able to find any sense of self in the sensations that you described?
A false self...yes. I said false self because I'm not those things. Those are just thoughts who I mistakenly taken as "me" thanks to the process of false identification.
If not, where is the "I"? Can you point to the "I" with your finger?
The "I" is Nowhere but a imaginary thought inside my mind. If I point the "I" with my finger to "me"... I'd be wrong. I'm just pointing in a non-existent label that holds no reality. A fiction. A thought.
Is "I" found in thoughts? Is "I" equivalent to mind?
I don't know... maybe? It manifest itself as a thought. It's not equivalent to mind since the mind just do it's own thing... you know projecting... labeling everything.
Do you have any idea where the "I" is lurking? From where do you get the sense of being "Stephen", right now?
The "I" is lurking as far as I know in my thoughts inside my mind and the sense of "Stephen" I get from the thought, belief, and label called "Stephen" and everything that comes with that label. I use to falsely believe it to be the center of my existence. Now... I'm not so sure.
If you close your eyes, can you feel that "I-am-ness", a sense of being alive, which has allways been there?
Yes! I've felt that before... just that presence... no thoughts, just a pleasant calmness... and the sense of being present in the now.
What is that which labels that impersonal "I-am-ness" as "Stephen"?
The Mind. It can't function without making distinction, a separation on things... so it slaps it with a label called "Stephen" when in truth... it's just formless presence, you may not see it physically but it's there! You can feel it... like air!

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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby mag » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:02 pm

Hi Stephen,
Let's continue with our classic LU question. What kind of thoughts and feelings are triggered when I declare a honest statement of Truth: "Stephen, you don't exist, and never did"
You didn't answer this question at all, please do now.
Stephen is sitting in a chair, typing away in my keyboard, looking in my widescreen monitor. Chillin'.
What is seen in the space of "me" is my name, this image (form), this personality, memories, experiences, values, beliefs, habits is what I see in the space of "me" which are pretty much all just thoughts (and some feelings).
Stephen, we need to do this exercise again. I should have been more elaborate with it. I want you to look at "raw" sense data for all those listed senses. I want microscopic details about colors and textures etc. I don't want to hear about you sitting on a chair, but how the body feels pressure againts the chair, how hands feel resting on keyboard, eyes zooming on pixels on screen etc. Take at least 5 minutes for each senses. Sensing "raw" data, seeing "raw" data, etc.

In your direct experience, do you SEE your name somewhere, really?
Are you able to find any sense of self in the sensations that you described?
A false self...yes. I said false self because I'm not those things. Those are just thoughts who I mistakenly taken as "me" thanks to the process of false identification.
Stephen, how is it possible to find any sense of self in plain sensations?
If not, where is the "I"? Can you point to the "I" with your finger?
The "I" is Nowhere but a imaginary thought inside my mind. If I point the "I" with my finger to "me"... I'd be wrong. I'm just pointing in a non-existent label that holds no reality. A fiction. A thought.
Right, "I" is just a thought. What makes you believe in that thought? Or in any thought?
Is "I" found in thoughts? Is "I" equivalent to mind?
I don't know... maybe? It manifest itself as a thought. It's not equivalent to mind since the mind just do it's own thing... you know projecting... labeling everything.
Exactly, mind is just a labelling machine, nothing else. It claims possession on everything that is perceived.
Do you have any idea where the "I" is lurking? From where do you get the sense of being "Stephen", right now? The "I" is lurking as far as I know in my thoughts inside my mind and the sense of "Stephen" I get from the thought, belief, and label called "Stephen" and everything that comes with that label. I use to falsely believe it to be the center of my existence. Now... I'm not so sure.
Good, when you are on the shaky ground what comes to believing "I" to be real, "I" to be seen as an illusion is not far.
If you close your eyes, can you feel that "I-am-ness", a sense of being alive, which has allways been there?
Yes! I've felt that before... just that presence... no thoughts, just a pleasant calmness... and the sense of being present in the now.
Good, that's one life, one being, no labels "Stephen" or "Henri" needed.
What is that which labels that impersonal "I-am-ness" as "Stephen"? The Mind. It can't function without making distinction, a separation on things... so it slaps it with a label called "Stephen" when in truth... it's just formless presence, you may not see it physically but it's there! You can feel it... like air!
OK, good. Now I will let you answer all my unanswered questions before making new ones. And please do the raw sense data exercise again.
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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby Stephen77 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:54 pm

Let's continue with our classic LU question. What kind of thoughts and feelings are triggered when I declare a honest statement of Truth: "Stephen, you don't exist, and never did"
Shock! Oh yeah the Firewall of Denial of the Imposter is in full swing. At the same time I feel an unsually relief.
Stephen, STOP.

.. and describe what kind of raw sense data is perceived in the place labeled "Stephen":

Describe in great detail what is 1) heard, 2) smelled, 3) sensed, 4) tasted and 5) seen in that space of "you".

I want you to look at "raw" sense data for all those listed senses. I want microscopic details about colors and textures etc. Take at least 5 minutes for each senses. Sensing "raw" data, seeing "raw" data, etc.
I guess i didn't listen or understand the meaning of your question... because I was distracted with other things... mainly fixing my computer... Ooops!

Okay... Ah! You meant "the raw sense data" of the label "Stephen"! Understood! Yeah... I'm gonna need more than 5 minutes to REALLY do it! It gonna take some time. :)

P.S.
I deleted all my spiritual e-books so that I could really focus on this! :)

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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby Stephen77 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:24 pm

This question is kinda demanding and I don't know if this is right but... here we go!
"Stephen" is...

An Asian man in his mid 30's, still a sheltered, young at heart of a person, meaning... a very old, somewhat adolescent man. He's not a saint but... he is a good decent guy just like anyone else. He is naive and cluesless at some times but he's mind is sharp enough to know what is what and not a bumbling idiot as you think... although he is sometimes because of inattention, and laziness.

He used to be very ambitious (I had stupid aspiration to become a computer wiz entrepreneur way back then) but thanks to his laziness, his failures and his open-minded inquiry into spirituality and mysticism... it broadened his mind.

If he followed his of path of becoming ambitious... he might have ended being a selfish, sociopathic, destructive ambitious prick... which is not good at all. Look at the people in Wall Street! Eck!

"Stephen" is realizing that all you need is Water, Food, & Shelter to be content in this life. You don't need anything at all since all of it is misguided projected distractions.
This the best that I've could blurt out... :(

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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby mag » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:15 pm

"Stephen" is... An Asian man in his mid 30's, still a sheltered, young at heart of a person, meaning... a very old, somewhat adolescent man. He's not a saint but... he is a good decent guy just like anyone else. He is naive and cluesless at some times but he's mind is sharp enough to know what is what and not a bumbling idiot as you think... although he is sometimes because of inattention, and laziness.
Stephen, thanks for sharing all of this, but I didn't need to hear a biography of Stephen :) Don't worry, I'll explain one more time...

So, I want you to LOOK at sensations in your immediate experience.

I will give you an example. What Mag/Henri is hearing right now:
  • some noice out of my breathing, in throat and nostrils, when I altered my breathing style a bit
  • some noices from fingers typing on a laptop
  • fridge/freezer making some silent noice
  • my office chair is making noices when I'm adjusting my posture
  • there seems to be some 'clicks' when the hard drive is writing something
  • my brother is sitting in the kitchen with me, his laptop is making some noices as well
Otherwise it's really calm and silent, no noice from outside (it's evening here), no traffic noise

Do similar listing for all senses: what you see, what you hear, what you feel with your body, what you smell, what you taste. Thank you :)
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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby Stephen77 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:21 pm

My bad! Okay...

I'm hearing the hiss of my electric fan set on number because its hot and dry here in Houston, TX USA.

I'm seeing my widescreen monitor... the luminescent light basking in front of me as type my post. I'm seeing the purple, orange, yellow colors of the wallscreen picture of the page...

I'm breathing at a nice gentle normal pace...

I can hear my darn neighbor's dog barking... and a slight feeling annoyance but I'm pretty much desensitize to it...

Scratching an itch in my left back side of my head and a bit on the right...

Rubbing off a bit of dirt in my eyes...

Just sitting relaxed... a bit bored... but just fine.

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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby mag » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:18 am

My bad! Okay... I'm hearing the hiss of my electric fan set on number because its hot and dry here in Houston, TX USA. I'm seeing my widescreen monitor... the luminescent light basking in front of me as type my post. I'm seeing the purple, orange, yellow colors of the wallscreen picture of the page...
I'm breathing at a nice gentle normal pace...
I can hear my darn neighbor's dog barking... and a slight feeling annoyance but I'm pretty much desensitize to it...
Scratching an itch in my left back side of my head and a bit on the right...
Rubbing off a bit of dirt in my eyes... Just sitting relaxed... a bit bored... but just fine.
OK. Much better. Above you described sense perceptions around you and within the body (breathing). I would like you to LOOK at those deeply, to become really introspective and to slow down your thought process. Is there anything personal in those sense perceptions? Or are they just happening without Stephen being involved at all? Can you notice how mind tries to label sense perceptions with "ME/MINE"? This is your practice for today.
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Re: So Near yet... So Far. I know I'm Close!

Postby Stephen77 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:05 am

I would like you to LOOK at those deeply, to become really introspective and to slow down your thought process. Is there anything personal in those sense perceptions? Or are they just happening without Stephen being involved at all? Can you notice how mind tries to label sense perceptions with "ME/MINE"?


I looked and noticed those sense perceptions... it just "happens!" You'd think there would be something "Personal" or "Stephen" would be involved but... All I sense is "The Happening" I don't know if that make sense but there is no "Person" or a "Stephen" doing it. My breathing, heartbeat, the electric fan hissing, sun rising and falling all those happens without my deliberate conscious intent (choice & action). It just happens.

I just realized that the mind is annoying bastard that's just doing it's (faulty) job. The Mind Superimposes itself on everything, thinking it is the center of the universe or even it owns the universe... which is False!

So the "Person" or "Stephen" as my hunch is telling me... are just thoughts, mind labels to be precise, which have no true substance, no reality.

-----

I had an experience last night while reading a book, an annoying uncomfortable thought just came out, and as I've learned from the "Gateless Gatecrashers" book, whenever you have a thought or fear... just look and notice that thought in the front of it and behind it! Realize... it's just a Feeling and a Mind-Label.

I did just that...and the thought just Vanished! Poof! Gone! I was friggin' surprised like... what just happened? I realized in that second that thoughts have no true substance, no reality! They're just superimpositions in Reality... which is just happening... naturally. Neat! :)

P.S.

When you said...
"Stephen, you don't exist, and never did"
It stick thru my mind like reverberating mantra the whole day. I couldn't help but reflect and contemplate on it. I was sort of expecting it... but you threw a surprise spiritual hand-grenade at "me". I wasn't expecting that. Hehe! :D

I feel like fading or becoming invisible if that make sense?

My favorite enlightened priest named Fr. Anthony de Mello once said... Spiritually is "Unlearing!" Man! I'm starting to grasp the reality of that word "Unlearning" because this is what we're doing here.

Anyway, hope that answers your questions! Let's continue this Unlearning... oh and Thanks for doing this with me! :)


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