not done yet

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Prem
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not done yet

Postby Prem » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:13 am

Have looked at this issue of 'no me' since some time, have investigated and seen that thoughts come and go, no me there who could make them come and go, body is functioning, again no me there who could do anything about it, same goes for sense perceptions, feelings etc., all just happening, no separate entity can be detected anywhere at all, life just happening............and yet, the illusion of a separate me is persisting especially regarding physical sensations, pain is felt here and not in another body, something seems to be still missing here........can somebody please help me to see clearer with this.

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Damon Kamda
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Re: not done yet

Postby Damon Kamda » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:28 am

Hi Prem, welcome to the forum. Love your name.

Let's dive right into it, ok?
What we require of you is simply the willingness to honestly look at your experience, as it is, and your comittment to see this through.

You write you see that there is "no separate entity can be detected anywhere at all, life just happening".
and yet, the illusion of a separate me is persisting especially regarding physical sensations, pain is felt here and not in another body, something seems to be still missing here
Interesting point.
Tell me, what expectations do you carry with you concerning liberation? What would it be like if nothing "would be missing"? Don't be afraid to be honest here.

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Prem
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Re: not done yet

Postby Prem » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:06 am

Hi nomad-kamad,

thank you for the reply. Expectations are, no more feeling of separation, no more looking for other than what is appearing each moment, especially regarding physical sensations of pain and discomfort.

Just to let you know, I'm located in India and our time zone is presently 41/2 - 51/2 hrs. ahead of Europe or England.
Thank you so much for your help.

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Re: not done yet

Postby Prem » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:07 am

So sorry, spelled your name wrongly, it's Nomad - Kamda...........of course

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Re: not done yet

Postby Damon Kamda » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:15 pm

thank you for the reply. Expectations are, no more feeling of separation, no more looking for other than what is appearing each moment, especially regarding physical sensations of pain and discomfort.
It's a pleasure, Prem.

Concerning these expectations. Are those all? Look deep, don't be afraid to look stupid. It'll be good to lay these out on the table and leave them at the doorstep before we move on. There's all sorts of funny ideas about awakening and it'll be a good idea to get them out in the open now, so the process can move smoother.

When you've done that, and you're ready to approach this with an open mind, turn your attention to this:
the illusion of a separate me is persisting especially regarding physical sensations, pain is felt here and not in another body, something seems to be still missing here
Can you locate "the illusion of a separate me"? Where is it experienced? How is it experienced? How does it appear? Take your time. Don't consult any theories in doing this, but write directly from experience. Try to be as complete as you can be. Really dive into this. What are we dealing with here? How does it work?
Just to let you know, I'm located in India and our time zone is presently 41/2 - 51/2 hrs. ahead of Europe or England.
Cool, hence the name I guess.
This means there'll be a bit of a delay in our exchange, which shouldn't be a big problem. We'll take this nice and easy.

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Prem
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Re: not done yet

Postby Prem » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:35 am

Over decades of search and especially growing up in this culture there were plenty of funny ideas and concepts about what spiritual awakening will be, almost all of them were seen thru or dropped on the way, these two, the feeling of separation and the constant sense of, that this moment is never enough, that it always should be different than what is, remain. And of course this is all tied in with the remaining illusion of a separate me. This illusion has been seen thru intellectually but not as a permanent living reality. I can not locate it anywhere in particular, it seems to be everywhere, like a thought sphere or energy sphere permeating everything. In the morning you wake up and it is already all there, ready made. The me is back in full swing.

The funny thing is, this whole 'me' structure can not be believed in anymore and yet it persists. Like a piece of cloth which has been dyed, the whole structure has been soaked thru and permeated by the dye, how to get the color out of it? It is a maddening thing, it is clearly seen, that there is only Life, living itself, one movement, one flow, a separate, independent 'me' is a impossibility in all of this, because, how could anything stand apart from it. It can be only an illusion, but a very persistent and convincing one.

Thank you Nomad~Kamda for all your care and kindness.

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Re: not done yet

Postby Damon Kamda » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:57 am

I can see you're very close. Now keep focused on "the me" and that alone.
The me is back in full swing.
Is it? Has it ever?
What is the me, Prem?
The funny thing is, this whole 'me' structure can not be believed in anymore and yet it persists.
As what does it persist? What is it? Has it ever existed?

Write from your experience. Test out your understanding in the day-to-day reality.

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Re: not done yet

Postby Prem » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:20 am

What is this 'me'? Well, it is just a thought, a memory, a story, which is thought. A habitual thought pattern. If I look how I move thru the day, I can see that there are so many times when this me thought is absent. It is absent and life goes on, nothing changes, nothing falls apart, sure, the me is not needed for anything to happen. But the way it is seen from here is, that's not the whole story. 'Me' also seems to be an energy field, a collective suggestion, I can't take a breath without it being there, I can't take a step in this world without it being there. And even if you have seen thru the illusion of it, it still is there, all around you. The whole heritage and story of mankind, me,me,me, mine, mine, mine, give it to me, give it to me! Every nook and corner in this world seems to be saturated by it, how do you get that out of your system?

Thanks so much Nomad~Kamda, and if you read this in the morning, have a happy day.

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Re: not done yet

Postby Damon Kamda » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:03 am

Sorry to keep you waiting, Prem, I had no internet access yesterday.
What is this 'me'? Well, it is just a thought, a memory, a story, which is thought. A habitual thought pattern. If I look how I move thru the day, I can see that there are so many times when this me thought is absent. It is absent and life goes on, nothing changes, nothing falls apart, sure, the me is not needed for anything to happen.
Yes, it is a thought, nothing more. This has been understood, clearly. The mental understanding is one thing, yet it has to be clearly seen as well. Concerning the expectation of "no more feeling of separation, no more looking for other than what is appearing each moment, especially regarding physical sensations of pain and discomfort": to whom are feelings of separation occuring? What do feelings of separation signify? Can you describe what separation feels like? Is there such a thing as separateness? What is behind physical sensations of pain and discomfort? Who is experiencing these feelings?
But the way it is seen from here is, that's not the whole story. 'Me' also seems to be an energy field, a collective suggestion, I can't take a breath without it being there, I can't take a step in this world without it being there. And even if you have seen thru the illusion of it, it still is there, all around you. The whole heritage and story of mankind, me,me,me, mine, mine, mine, give it to me, give it to me! Every nook and corner in this world seems to be saturated by it, how do you get that out of your system?
Well, you could start by examining your own experience closely first. Do you exist, Prem?

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Re: not done yet

Postby Prem » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:36 pm

No problem waiting Nomad~Kamda.

Thank you for your very good questions, forced me to look at a few things intently. What I saw, was that feelings just occur, certainly not to a 'me', and if not hooked up to a me they signify absolutely nothing. For instant the feeling of separation is a feeling of loneliness and alienation from everything around me, but then also only if in reference to a me. No me - no separation. Me is a thought, a story and no more buying into that story means that everything is going out of the window - wow, that's interesting - I see what you mean.

That would then also hold true for physical pain etc. , no me - just the sensations, no more story there - just stuff coming and going, nobody experiencing these sensations - more just a 'knowing' of it all but no story to it, no drama attached. Wow, great. See what you mean. Fantastic...and so simple....

Well, do I exist? Yes, of course I exist or better there IS Existence, certainly no me there who owns it or brings it into being. Language is misleading, but of course I can say that I exist, it's just that this 'I' has no reference point to it.

Great stuff Nomad~Kamda, excellent tracking and pointing, thank you so much, something has definitely moved here.........wow

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Re: not done yet

Postby Damon Kamda » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:11 pm

Ok, Prem, please understand that there is a difference between intellectually grasping this and seeing the actual reality of it. We're not here to provide you with yet another belief or doctrine, but to invite you to verify it yourself. Is it really true that there is no self?
Well, do I exist? Yes, of course I exist or better there IS Existence, certainly no me there who owns it or brings it into being. Language is misleading, but of course I can say that I exist, it's just that this 'I' has no reference point to it.
That doesn't make any sense, Prem.
"of course I can say that I exist, it's just that this 'I' has no reference point to it"
"I" has no reference point, exactly because there is no "I"- it doesn't exist.

Yes, existence IS, you however are not.
Great stuff Nomad~Kamda, excellent tracking and pointing, thank you so much, something has definitely moved here.........wow
Hmmm... please elaborate, what has moved?

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Prem
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Re: not done yet

Postby Prem » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:44 am

At one point I saw that I can either keep on following the mind, thought, and get more and more bogged down by its endless questioning, arguing and doubts or simply look and admit the evidence of what this looking reveals.
It's the difference between fantasy and reality, between what IS and what the mind makes out of it or wants it to be.

This me,I, self or whatever we want to call it, is simply a thought, a habitual thought pattern. It has no reference in reality. If a thought of my computer is there, it has a reference in reality. I think of it, i open my eyes and it is there in front of me. The me is just not found like this, because it is just a fantasy. It does not exist. I does not exist.
There is Existence, but no separate, independent I found in it.........

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Re: not done yet

Postby Damon Kamda » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:41 am

Good. Clear, and to the point.

Here's some questions for you to ponder. Take your time.

- How and when was this seen?
- What is the difference before and after seeing this? What does liberation feel like?
- How would you explain all of this to someone who's never heard of this?

Thanks, Prem.

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Re: not done yet

Postby Prem » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:46 am

During the pondering of your questions, there was a kind of seeing that I can not go at this on a mental level, but must look at real evidence. More like: 'you want fantasy or truth'. From than on I could quickly see what was true and what was fantasy, as I wrote before, it is really an admittance of the evidence this investigation comes up with.

Before this, I saw everything in relation to this believed in entity. It was like one looks at everything thru a small colored glass and all takes on this hue. Remove the color and everything becomes clear, just clarity, just as it is. It is actually a small, simple thing but with huge implications. The ugly sting of falsehood goes out of it, and it feels good, much more relaxed, like there is nothing else anymore than what is happening just now.

To somebody who has never heard of this I would just try to provide hard facts - like, sit down and examine your present experience. See if you can actually find a central entity, this 'me' who is directing the whole show. Check out if you find a specific me who thinks thoughts, has feelings or directs the processes of the body. Watch how you move thru the day, the movements of the body, reactions to happenings and situations etc..
One can only explain this by pointing to the others own direct experience of this moment. Everything else will go off into the realms of imagination.

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Re: not done yet

Postby Damon Kamda » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:57 pm

Looks as if you're out, Prem. Lovely.

Any questions left?

I'll ask some others if they have some questions for you.


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