Help please

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Profilific
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Help please

Postby Profilific » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:56 am

Helo!

I'm looking to get an experience of the no-self. Yeah, I know, "I". Where I come from:
I've done about 1.5 years of mindfulness practice. 40 minutes formal practice and constantly throughout the day.
I do experience the nothingness at times. Where things come and go from, a stillness. But from what I've read and heard, this is not the no-self. As you probably know, from my mindfulness practice I'm able to experience thoughts as visual thoughts and auditory thoughts, and body sensations. I've tried to do some self-inquiry by myself and the experience I have now is that a) the object and subject seem to be manifested at the same time from the same nothingness. But this doesn't mean the self doesn't exist, it's just a knowing of the gap between the manifestations. b) when I have an I thought, it seems to be noticed and the I falls away, the I seems to be a label arising and when it's noticed it falls away as unecessary. But I don't know if this is a habit of mindfulness, or if this is an evermore deepening of the no-self that is occuring. I'd grealy appreciate to get some clarity into all of this. And as I've write I, the I seems to fall away. But what I'm worried about (let's use I as a convention) is that I'm only imagining this from what I've read, that this isn't the no-self etc. So getting some clarity if it's the no-self and if not, help please!

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:02 pm

Those questions may help you in further clarifications.

Here right now is there you as separate self? Was there ever?
Is there a breather or just breathing?
Is there a hearer or just hearing?
Is there a thinker of thoughts, or just thinking? Just thoughts happening?

Is there a separate experiencer of this experience? Or there is just the experience?

Be well.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:14 pm

Thanks for answering!

Here right now is there you as separate self? Was there ever?
There is a seperate self in the sense that thoughts and feelings arise to form a sense of self. If you mean a seperate sense of self that doesn't consist of thoughts or feelings, I'd probably have to say no. If there ever was? Doesn't seem likely


Is there a breather or just breathing?
There is a sense of self that arises at times that wants to take ownership of breathing but see it as unecessary.
Is there a hearer or just hearing?
Sometimes just hearing, but then it comes up a self that wants to see if there is only hearing. A self that wants to be selfless I guess.
Is there a thinker of thoughts, or just thinking? Just thoughts happening?
There are thoughts arising forming a self, but a thinker of thoughts seems untrue, as it seems to be just thoughts and sensations arising tangling together to form a self.

Is there a separate experiencer of this experience? Or there is just the experience?

There seems to be a seperate experiencer but whenever it comes up, it seems to die a bit and becoming less and less strong.


I was taking a bath just now and I was immensely frustrated and then I got the intuition that the self that is trying to find the illusion can never find it, that it's a worthless pursuit as the pursuit of the self requires a self to manifest in order to continue the pursuit, so it's an endless circle. It's first when you stop the pursuit and the self "dies" that you see that the search itself keeps the search going. Maybe that's the cosmic joke, that the self that tries to find no-self, can never find it, and it's first when the self that tries to find no-self stops and rests for a bit that awareness can see that it never needed a pursuit anyway.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:18 pm

As I don't know how to edit: What I wrote above seems true. "I". But there is fear that it might not be, that it's just a neo-advitian approach. So I'm hoping it will clarify these coming days.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:46 pm

There seems to be a seperate experiencer but whenever it comes up, it seems to die a bit and becoming less and less strong.
If I say that there is no separate experiencer, and never was, so no one to die, how does it feel?
There is just this experience and thoughts about experiencer are part of it.
Check if it is true.

Leave aside second hand knowledge, be honest, look into your actual experience and responses will come from that place.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:09 am

I'll try to be more fast with my answers.
If I say that there is no separate experiencer, and never was, so no one to die, how does it feel?
There is just this experience and thoughts about experiencer are part of it.
Check if it is true.

Leave aside second hand knowledge, be honest, look into your actual experience and responses will come from that place.

To be honest, it feels true.

I checked and I can't find a "true" experiencer in the sense that it's an experiencer other than thoughts. It's a sense of an I, and when I look to check I can't seem to find an experiencer other than a sense of one.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:34 am

Sometimes just hearing, but then it comes up a self that wants to see if there is only hearing. A self that wants to be selfless I guess.
Is there than sometimes more than hearing in hearing?
Is there a self to come up, or it is just a thought, just an interpretation? That comes afterwards.

Look into the experience.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:56 am

Sometimes just hearing, but then it comes up a self that wants to see if there is only hearing. A self that wants to be selfless I guess.
Is there than sometimes more than hearing in hearing?
Is there a self to come up, or it is just a thought, just an interpretation? That comes afterwards.

Look into the experience.

The self that comes up seems to be a mere thought. There is the hearing, and then the experience of self but as a thought. It's difficult to describe but it's like the hearing is over there, and the self is here, but it's experienced just as a thought here. It's like the self arises but it's only almost like an image that you could see.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:28 am

Where is border between here and there?
Is there a border between hearing and you, where?

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:38 pm

Where is border between here and there?
Is there a border between hearing and you, where?
To be honest, the only border I can find is somtimes thoughts about a self. Somtimes it seems to be a real self, and sometimes that the awareness is stuck in the "head".

It also seems that these boundaries, stuckness and self are just habits that are arising and that the more time that passes the more they will stop to interfere with experience and the clearer these things will be.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:49 pm

Sometimes it seems to be a real self
What seems to be a real self?
Could you describe your actual experience right now, how it looks like?
Pure perception facts, without additional mind conjectures.

Greetings.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:39 pm

Sometimes it seems to be a real self
What seems to be a real self?
Could you describe your actual experience right now, how it looks like?
Pure perception facts, without additional mind conjectures.

Greetings.

I don't actually know what seems to be a real self. I try to find it now but there are only thoughts.

My actualy experience right now: depression (as sensation) arising in solar plexus (I'm bipolar so it happens) and typing happens on the computer. Sometimes a thought of self arises but it's quickly seen as unecessary. But it keeps arising.
There is a sense of a seperate self, but no "real" self can be identified. Sometimes seeing just happens and then sometimes seeing with a sense of seperate self happens. This is what happens.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:41 pm

Sometimes it seems to be a real self
What seems to be a real self?
Could you describe your actual experience right now, how it looks like?
Pure perception facts, without additional mind conjectures.

Greetings.

I don't actually know what seems to be a real self. I try to find it now but there are only thoughts.

My actualy experience right now: depression (as sensation) arising in solar plexus (I'm bipolar so it happens) and typing happens on the computer. Sometimes a thought of self arises but it's quickly seen as unecessary. But it keeps arising.
There is a sense of a seperate self, but no "real" self can be identified. Sometimes seeing just happens and then sometimes seeing with a sense of seperate self happens. This is what happens.
There is also a stillness happening whenever the self is looked through.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:49 pm

So is the separate self just a thought? And sense of self just a sense arising because of long time conditioning?
Except in thoughts and vague feeling is there anything else pointing to existence of self?
There is also a stillness happening whenever the self is looked through.
Isn't that peace sign of resting in truth without belief in separate self?
Sometimes a thought of self arises but it's quickly seen as unnecessary. But it keeps arising.
Thoughts arise, come and go, do you have any control of it? Except to be examined as you did.
My actualy experience right now: depression (as sensation) arising in solar plexus
What would be depression if it wouldn't be labeled as depression? If the sensations would be just felt as they are?

You don't need to rush. Take your time to relax and observe the actual experiencing.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:38 pm

So is the separate self just a thought? And sense of self just a sense arising because of long time conditioning?
Except in thoughts and vague feeling is there anything else pointing to existence of self?
There is also a stillness happening whenever the self is looked through.
Isn't that peace sign of resting in truth without belief in separate self?
Sometimes a thought of self arises but it's quickly seen as unnecessary. But it keeps arising.
Thoughts arise, come and go, do you have any control of it? Except to be examined as you did.
My actualy experience right now: depression (as sensation) arising in solar plexus
What would be depression if it wouldn't be labeled as depression? If the sensations would be just felt as they are?

You don't need to rush. Take your time to relax and observe the actual experiencing.
I will do as you say and take my time. I'll go to my girlfriend now, but I'll do this during my time with her and I'll report back tomorrow!


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