Zen/Vipassana Practitioner, Interested in Direct Pointing

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CMatthews
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Re: Zen/Vipassana Practitioner, Interested in Direct Pointing

Postby CMatthews » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:05 pm

You saw thoughts just pop up. That's good enough. Everything else is of no help in this inquiry. I would say its detrimental because it might turn into a purpose
Yes. Exactly. I'm going to look at this more. I can't expect thoughts to stop. Why would I even want that?

I'll look at the thoughts arising and ceasing. See them for what they are and enjoy the show.
What are those stories and why is it hard to see through them? Are they not just thoughts (plus, maybe, sensations)?
Stories about who I am, what my goals and ourposes are, good and bad decisions, aspirations, doubts. I know these are mental constructs. I think they seem real because they cause a physical response in the body. And then more thoughts, more physical response. This circuit creates a sense of self and causes it to tighten.

But they are just stories. I'm going to watch the mind more. When the attention goes to the body I'll watch that. And I'll watch the attention move. I've been noticing that where attention moves to, how wide or focused it is, we can't control this, attention moves on it's own. Sometimes I try to control it and sometimes I let it be where it is. I can't control that either, my trying and not trying changes on its own.
If you saw thoughts/sensations happen, shouldn't have had the castle of cards collapsed? Why need to pick each one in particular?
If you know Santa is a story, do you have to go to Lapland to see if you don't somehow uncover his sledge?
I know what you mean. But this is how I see it: I've seen that thoughts and bodily sensations cause each other but happen on their own. There is no 'control center' in the mind. I'm beginning to see more clearly that attention/awareness moves on its own. I'm also getting better at seeing that things like boredom, frustration, joy, fatigue, determination, effort, desire, all change and come and go on their own.

So I'm okay at seeing the three characteristics clearly in most gross sensations and some subtle sensations.

If there is still a pervasive sense of self, it's because there is some 'background process' such as desire to expand or sharpen awareness, desire to quiet the mind, determination, etc, that I am not seeing clearly as impermanent/non-self/not satisfying. The thing I'm not seeing clearly therefore solidifies and appears permanent and a part of 'me'. I'm trying to go through everything, especially all of the little processes in the background, and shine a light on them.

When there's nothing left that I've not looked closely at, there will be nowhere for the sense of self to hide.

Please set me straight if this doesn't sound like a good idea.
So take it as a yes/no question instead. Can you find the spot they meet? Yes or no.
If yes, can you pinpoint that spot precisely?
If no, well ok.
No. I can't see it. There's one thing, and another thing. But no exact spot.

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Andrei
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Re: Zen/Vipassana Practitioner, Interested in Direct Pointing

Postby Andrei » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:07 pm

I'll look at the thoughts arising and ceasing. See them for what they are and enjoy the show.
Good. Step two would be to start noticing how the thoughts weave stories and recognize them for what they are, which is mostly noise.

Stories about who I am, what my goals and ourposes are, good and bad decisions, aspirations, doubts. I know these are mental constructs. I think they seem real because they cause a physical response in the body. And then more thoughts, more physical response. This circuit creates a sense of self and causes it to tighten.
Indeed, everything is connected. Thoughts are connected to sensations. If you see smth you take as life threatening you will most definitely feel sensations labelled as fear.
But the same question occurs: What makes all of it "yours"?

Now that you're able to see through the illusion of the parts, start looking through the illusion of the ALL.

Sometimes I try to control it and sometimes I let it be where it is. I can't control that either, my trying and not trying changes on its own.
Go further. Is there a you doing the trying or is trying just happening?
That probably sounds like a mindfuck. Not sure it makes any sense :))

When there's nothing left that I've not looked closely at, there will be nowhere for the sense of self to hide.
Please set me straight if this doesn't sound like a good idea.
On the contrary. That is the only way to get anywhere.
There is nothing HOLY in our work here. There is nothing out of borders. You need to uncover and dismantle everything, because everything hidden is a possible enemy.

If there is still a pervasive sense of self, it's because there is some 'background process' such as desire to expand or sharpen awareness, desire to quiet the mind, determination, etc, that I am not seeing clearly as impermanent/non-self/not satisfying. The thing I'm not seeing clearly therefore solidifies and appears permanent and a part of 'me'.
I'm going to get back to you on this one. I need to talk to somebody who is more knowledgeable in this area.

So take it as a yes/no question instead. Can you find the spot they meet? Yes or no.
If yes, can you pinpoint that spot precisely?
If no, well ok.
No. I can't see it. There's one thing, and another thing. But no exact spot.
So what about separation in general? From other people, objects, etc. Is there such a thing as separation or is it a mind construct?


Has anything happened in the past few days? I notice a change in how/what you write. It's like you started to see :)

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Andrei
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Re: Zen/Vipassana Practitioner, Interested in Direct Pointing

Postby Andrei » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:24 pm

If there is still a pervasive sense of self, it's because there is some 'background process' such as desire to expand or sharpen awareness, desire to quiet the mind, determination, etc, that I am not seeing clearly as impermanent/non-self/not satisfying. The thing I'm not seeing clearly therefore solidifies and appears permanent and a part of 'me'.
Why/how would those desires hinder your seeing through the illusion of the self?

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CMatthews
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Re: Zen/Vipassana Practitioner, Interested in Direct Pointing

Postby CMatthews » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:35 pm

Why/how would those desires hinder your seeing through the illusion of the self?
The 'self' isn't one thing to be seen through. I can see through the more easily detectable parts of it. The stuff I don't see clearly, and recognise as impermanent, arising on its own, etc, might just seem like 'self'.

There is still some part of me that feels fixed and centred and permanent and I won't see through it unless I keep looking.

That's my reasoning.

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CMatthews
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Re: Zen/Vipassana Practitioner, Interested in Direct Pointing

Postby CMatthews » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:18 pm

I'd like to get the conversation going again if you have time. I think we were getting somewhere, and it would be good to continue.


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