The Road

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The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:44 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I'll start by saying a thank you for this forum - to answer the question: that "self" as a discrete real and tangible thing is a fiction does not and never did exist. Unexamined acceptance of and belief of this wee man driving the bus is delusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
Firstly to make sure that I have or am on the threshold of breaking through - I believe and understand there is no such self. Things happen (thoughts feelings words weather ...) rather than an "I" experiencing or an "I" causing them. Slipping back into conditioned response in the busyness of life (home work children partner ... ) seems common for me. So secondly after getting through the gate a place to benchmark slippage and guidance / encouragement for the road ahead.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honesty from both you and from me. Another person's perspective on what we are looking at and how we attack the hurdles. Commitment to patience - I'm making no excuses but I am blind to my own failings given my monocular and uniquely personal experience of life and viewpoint - by this I am not saying that I am special. Clarity in communication - language is so a poor and blunt instrument sometimes so I understand that it is I (see?) who does the work here. As ambiguity is inherent in language when there are no visual or tone cues / clues there will be some wrestling to find "aha" moments when someone is setting a challenge or direction.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was a recreational user of substances for many years pretending that much of the experience was part of an existential journey of enquiry into truth. It was and still can be entertaining but I was full of crap if I really thought I was using these things for ta spiritual end. I was a born again speaking in tongues Christian for ten years majoring in exegesis of the bible pulling apart language and cross referencing. Eventually I realised I enjoyed the "righteousness" and the cultural silo but that I was deluding myself as I did not believe the bible. Born wrong? Never had a chance? The narrow road? We church and I parted on good speaking terms - I pointed out to the pastor that Jesus had a special dislike for hypocrites. Then Buddhism attracted me ... meditation as a practice was calming and I became more aware of how my mind worked and recognised repeated patterns. The notion of this moment only and time and ego being manufactured constructs. Plato's cave - the shadows are not reality but simply shadows of reality. Then the brutality and in your faceness of the Jed McKenna trilogy ... I start the day by looking at the sky and have a notebook on the front of which are printed the words "Too much thinking can cause problems"

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 11

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:03 pm

Hi! And welcome to the forum. How should I call you?

Thanks for the intro. All I ask of you is complete honesty and writing from your own experience alone. Please put all you have learned from others in a side for the period of this conversation and stop reading, watching, or whatever you do about other people's experiences. Here we focus on your process alone and I will ask you questions that you are going to have to answer from your own experience.

Please write as much as you like, preferably every day. This is your process. I'm only here to hold your hand.

I like that you read Jed McKenna, his books did a good favour to me too :) but he missed the main point, which is facing the fact that there is no self DIRECTLY. This is what I'm askin g you to do now.
There is no self. Never was. Nothing that drives the body and makes things happen.

How does it feel to consider this seriously?
What thoughts, emotions come up when you let this thought in?

Write as it is.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:21 pm

Hi! And welcome to the forum. How should I call you?

Thanks for the intro. All I ask of you is complete honesty and writing from your own experience alone. Please put all you have learned from others in a side for the period of this conversation and stop reading, watching, or whatever you do about other people's experiences. Here we focus on your process alone and I will ask you questions that you are going to have to answer from your own experience.

Please write as much as you like, preferably every day. This is your process. I'm only here to hold your hand.

I like that you read Jed McKenna, his books did a good favour to me too :) but he missed the main point, which is facing the fact that there is no self DIRECTLY. This is what I'm askin g you to do now.
There is no self. Never was. Nothing that drives the body and makes things happen.

How does it feel to consider this seriously?
What thoughts, emotions come up when you let this thought in?

Write as it is.

Sending love
Hi Ilona ... my name is Ian and thank you for holding out your hand to me.

I completely agree to focus on my work, my path and to be honest about my experience without using or identifying the work or words of others by proxy.

I've spent most of my life governed by fear and anxiety over being wrong, being not good enough that it seems this "i ness" has been a great source of misery. I've spent too much time wishing to be rescued by some magic or miracle to remove suffering and I realise this "I" identification as a colossal problem.

To tell the truth it is a relief to accept there is no little "Men In Black" type critter in my head working the levers and stepping back it feels so true. The problem is being free of a lifetime of conditioned response and thoughts are tricky. For a long time I've been perplexed by how I can string words together stream if consciousness like ... do things like prepare food and go shopping without it being more complex given all the co-ordination of planning, physical action and so on ... the simple pleasure of knowing that "I" don't have to control bodily functions ... that just being in the stream of happening is the simplest thing ... the almost immediate ability to respond to humour, to laugh and cry etc without having to deconstruct all through the fictitious "I" framework has made accepting this truth logical and easy. It was a revelation to see that I don't switch on hearing or sight ... there is hearing and there is sight ... I am these things ... here we go with the conditioning ... they are happening. Thoughts just happen ... if they were generated by a "me" how would the me start the process? By directing the mind to start thinking? That just keeps reducing backwards like looking through the wrong end of a telescope.
So how does it feel? There is some fear and anxiety in just letting go of thinking I have to perform and I have to be perfect, that I can't change anything as there is no "I" ... a modicum of fear that I might lose something of "me" in letting go of what isn't there. I suspect nothing will change except perspective. I don't know what happens when this body dies, when consciousness ends but I think often of this temporal nature of being. It's early morning and I hear noise from my gut, there is a slight muddiness to my thoughts and my fingers type these words in that weird mind body process. I know there is no "I" and that nonetheless the framework of how I engage with self and world is indelibly linked to and identified with by the notion of "I". It is a little screwy to be fair ... but at an intuitive level I don't fear as if there never was a me (outside of that concept as vehicle by which to navigate the world) the inherent character, humour etc of how this entity works will not change. I do feel some concern that maybe I am deluding myself and that I don't really get it outside of my head .... maybe I need to dwell more to find out if there is a subtle and abiding layer of feelings about all this I'm not being unconsciously honest about ... can you help me with that ... I should be feeling more threatened, fearful ? Why should I think or expect that?

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:03 pm

Thank you for sharing your thought and taking time to reply.
The fear and anxiety is quite normal in this exploration, it's a program that runs to protect the structure. The fear is a protective mechanism, can you see that? It's only trying to help by informing that you are going somewhere unknown. But what is there to protect? Can you have a look and tell me, what can be lost if there really is no i as a separate entity? What feels threatened?
If there really is no i, and never was in charge if this body/mind system, would anything need to change?

Take your time
Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:43 pm

The fear is a protective mechanism, can you see that?
Yes I can see that ... uncharted territory, no previous frame of reference, delusion possible ... got to keep it simple.
This enquiry/journey calls into question everything I've ever known and assumed about identity.
But what is there to protect? Can you have a look and tell me, what can be lost if there really is no i as a separate entity? What feels threatened?
I don't know what, if anything. There may be a loss of the nature by which I live in the world ... I know that "I" is just a label because sound and sight are experienced rather than having to turn them on, speech seems largely automatic in response to thought but doesn't have to go to an editor before publication, breathing and digestion and circulation just happen through that mystery of biology. This will all continue as it always has. It is really concern of the possible mental contortions that a loss of mental and emotional safety and equilibrium might be lost. No foundation for this but it just simmers gently under the surface.

There is no fear of losing an entity that isn't and never was there. So what changes ... the nature and way of thinking is likely to ... I suspect some flip flopping and confusion. So it is really about how life will look and feel ... maybe nothing but such a fundamental paradigm shift in perspective is logically likely to change as a lot of shit that clings falls away.
The physical senses will be what they always were and thoughts will still stream but it is the mental trip ...

I just need to breathe, trust the process and be assured by your guidance as I know I'm not the first on this road and the questions and discoveries will not be unique ...

Re-reading this I feel there's been a shift by simply articulating.

I will spend the day coming back to take inventory of the thoughts and feelings I experience ...

At times there just feels an amorphous shifting ebb and flow, a continuity of change ...

Thanks for your kindness and questions/direction ... I look forward to hearing from you

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:25 am

Oh yes, you speak right words, that resonate. The process is on, and there shift can be very gentle, Olmsted unnoticeable. It can be very rough and intense. Whatever is happening for you is the perfect way. Not much left to do other than surrendering. And surrendering in other words means allowing. Not accepting or rejecting, but allowing all to be as it is white whole honesty.
The fear is a protective mechanism, can you see that?

Yes I can see that ... uncharted territory, no previous frame of reference, delusion possible ... got to keep it simple.
This enquiry/journey calls into question everything I've ever known and assumed about identity.
Here is the different angle. We are not looking of a new better identity, we are looking at what is that needs an identity in the first place. What does identity stick to?

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:35 pm

I spent the entire Saturday on a waterblaster at home cleaning the retaining walls and concrete pathways. The sun shone and I worked like a robot for eight hours ... occasionally I'd come out of the state of automatically methodically working along to move a plant or a table ... at those times of thought there was an obstacle or something to interrupt the flow that had triggered the thought. I would move the thing or straighten the hose or whatever it was and then continue again. Very pleasant just being without an monkey mind agenda ... there were musings from time to time on the beauty of the sunlight, the feel of the breeze, the vibration of the water gun in my hand, the wetness on my legs from overspray. Eight hours passed at the end of which there was a feeling of wellness ... as good as a nice ling period of meditation, a spa and a massage all rolled into one. No small feelings of righteousness or pride having done a thorough job, no "My wife will be happy when she sees what I have done" ... none of that was necessary. There was an expanse where boundaries were no longer distinct ... seeing is as far as the sight line ... no me making the sight be by seeing ... the eyes simply register what is there ... they are not separate ... sound comes so that my awareness is extended so that there is this dance and interplay between what is and what my awareness is of what is ...
Language is such a crude thing sometimes ... I feel like someone trying to tune a fine watch with a sledgehammer

Later the distraction came when I started thinking about your last question:
Here is the different angle. We are not looking of a new better identity, we are looking at what is that needs an identity in the first place. What does identity stick to?
So if all this is just happening when the doctor says "Open your mouth" there are two things that might happen ... the mouth might open or the mouth might not open ... how does that happen if there is no control, how does one event occur and another not? Life often seems a hybrid of things just happening and intertwined elements of decisions being made, cognitive influence to refine what is happening.

It is so easy to get lost in all of this ... distraction is strong in this one Obe Wan Kanobe. I know that the trick is to not get engaged in the distraction but to recognise, observe and return to the watching brief.

I enjoy the qualities that present as this functional/ fictional me in the word ... nice singing voice, funny, artistic, kind, animal loving etc ... but I'm stuck on what this "identity" thing is. Clearly there is no me ... thoughts just come because if there was a me that had to make a thought happen then that me would need to be prompted to think to think ... I'm not sure if I've expressed that well but you might get my drift here ...
When I sing or draw or write a poem or feed the chickens do all these acts of creation (yes feeding the chickens is an act of creative interplay) do these things just occur like magic? This is the mystery ... I see there is no me ... the body can do it's thing without interference - respiration occurs, blood circulates, waste is processed, temperature regulated ... but when it is time to go talk to someone or do the shopping there are decisions to make, plans to put in place and discharge and if there is "no thing" for these to be attached to how do they occur? Mystery mind warp time ... I'm fascinated (oh dear here "I" am again) ...

Identity is a label, a catch all convention we use in society to describe an amorphous and ever changing set of expressions and behaviours ... there is no anxiety that this thing the world relates to as "me" will cease to continue as far as those observers are concerned. As far as I can see those elements that we roll up together as "identity" or "character" just are ... like the damned cloud without a centre or formal structure.
I have no doubt intellectually in expecting some aspects in how this "identity" presents to the world to change - that doesn't worry me because life is in constant flux in all ways so it is exciting - identity has no weight, dimension, borders - it isn't a fixed thing with immutable specifications. It is a label we use, a fiction to allow social interaction and ability to navigate the world and society.

Last night I had a terrible dream ... so violent and awful that I awoke shaking at the horror of the thing ... no need to go into details but someone was beheaded and the killer looked like me and gave me the axe as a gift .... I didn't expect this and part thought it a distraction - I can see how some Christians characterise this sort of thing as a demonic attack - but then I thought this is an dream world depiction of what is happening ... while not exactly on point losing my head is exactly what is happening in a way ... there never was a head in this analogy but the dream showed me that something is there.

Not sure if I'm there as I've always heard people say that "You just know" so being honest there is still that intangible feeling of a question mark sitting somewhere ...

It is easy to get lost in this, to get distracted, to miss pointers and to see things as pointers that are simply distraction ...

A short work week then Easter, then another short work week ...

Thanks for being there Ilona and sorry if I have rambled a bit ... I look back at what I've written this morning and it wanders around a bit ... but I appreciate your insight and hope I haven't confused you in all of this.

Warmest thanks

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:13 pm

Thank you very much for your reply. You are on the right track. So let's examine more deeply, what is that needs to have an identity? You haven't answered this. Take a look and write what you find.

Find the sense of being, aliveness, does that need to have an identity?
Is identity a thought or feeling, or sensation? How would you describe that?

Focus please.

Sending love
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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:30 pm

Find the sense of being, aliveness, does that need to have an identity?
Is identity a thought or feeling, or sensation? How would you describe that?
In order to answer I need to know what identity means.

Identity is a label … it isn’t really a thing but rather a catch all concept that (depending on context) might include nationality, ethnicity, religion, beliefs, gender, sexuality, marital status, address, political affiliation, mental or physical conditions, various biometric (such as hair colour, eye colour, height, weight, fingerprints, blood type), address, occupation, marital status, birthdate, birthplace, social security number, hobbies and interests, temperament, criminal convictions …

And then there are the more personal attributes that might be associated with how I interact with the world … sense of humour, emotional demeanour, kindness, driving style, food preferences, genres of music or art films or entertainment, whether I am introverted or extroverted, the ideas I have about things …

Just trying to establish what identity means can be a deep philosophical exploration.

But whatever it means it is conceptual and a way of labelling. It is not a feeling or set of feelings, it isn’t a thought though there might be thoughts as to what the abstract thing is.
It is nothing but an abstract tool … like Newton had to invent calculus to explore the laws of motion but it isn’t a real thing.

A label is what the mind attaches to things to make it easy to relate and communicate.

It doesn’t have to attach to anything at all … it is more like a complex of abstract expressions and manifestions / emanations …

Nothing needs to have an identity because I’ve already seen that there is nothing central, real or tangible that is a “me” … no central locus point, no little man at the controls.

All there is is awareness … this thing called life … it needs nothing ... it just is.
There is just aliveness that isn’t located anywhere … not in the gut, or between the eyebrows, not lurking in the amygdala or in a hovering aura.

There is just awareness … life that is … a second later the mind starts sticking labels on everything …. A table, a cat, a cloud … they are just labels … “identifiers”.

There is just life located nowhere and everywhere … full and empty …

But I am struggling with this today as there is nothing to focus on … identity is a concept of convenience that has no relation to experiencing awareness.

You might need to set more pointed questions or get out the stick but I have really tried to answer your question Ilona.

Many thanks again

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:25 pm

Yes'm yes yes, identity is a concept, not actuality. It's useful and practical when we communicate, but it's empty :) only thoughts about thoughts about thoughts..

And all that is life happening as thoughts..

Please take time and tell me, what is it that you are expecting? Is it a state, sensation, aha moment, is there something that you are looking for? Be completely honest here, bring all your expectations up. Make a list.

Sending love
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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:45 pm

Please take time and tell me, what is it that you are expecting? Is it a state, sensation, aha moment, is there something that you are looking for? Be completely honest here, bring all your expectations up. Make a list.
Expectation is more definite, stronger than wish or desire and suggests there is some outcome or outcomes that should occur.

As far as expectations go I don’t have a lot and I’m glad because if I did have that perspective it would leave me more closed as I would have some preconceived ideas about what comes next.
For me knowing that I don’t know keeps me in a more open and receptive state.

So down to details …

What am I expecting?

Less self-consciousness…
I mean no self = no self consciousness, right? I’m just being glib but the truth is that for much of my life I’ve been neurotically self conscious – childhood was a social nightmare so I lost myself in sport where there was just action no thought – that was the only time I was free. Continuing through life has been at times a nightmare of anguish so I spent a lot of my adult life self medicating. Just getting on a bus was enough to trigger panic. Speaking in front of even a small group. Meeting new people. Walking into a shop. Making eye contact – these were continuous crisis situations. Over the years I’ve learned tricks and coping strategies … but that core response may have diluted a little but never left.

I do expect this to change … I obviously don’t know for sure but I’d be surprise if there wasn’t a shift … the nature and rate of change is yet to be experienced.
There is a lot of situational conditioning that is purely a Pavlovian response that may cling now there is insight.


Less drama …
My mother was a very critical person and I grew up thinking that I was inferior. So in life whenever I am confronted with a new situation or have a problem to solve I’ve generally panicked just rushed in with a lot of blind hope and little skill or planning. It was like I was setting myself up and botch things confirming to me and reinforcing that belief that “I” was useless / incapable. More than that I felt that I was responsible to make everything alright for everyone … I see no point in going back into the past and analysing the why of things … more gazing at “self” just continues to buy into the fiction.

So what I laboured under was an unhealthy viewpoint … a belief about self that had me chained to misery … so I do expect a shift here too … I expect the sense of having to fix everything to start to fall away and I expect the unconscious habit of impossibly unattainable negative benchmarking of my abilities against others that tended to be a feature. Already when a situation arises I don’t immediately switch to fight / flight as if “I” have to fix it, to fix it perfectly and to do it now. It feels like a cloud is lifting and so I watch what is happening and wait … the inner pressure is already more subdues.

Altered State, Sensation
To be honest I don’t expect that … I’ve done enough chemicals and experienced enough mood swings in life to know that states are ephemeral. There may be a flush of elation but that will be a transient and changing thing. When you first meet a person and fall in love there is this nirvana where there are unicorns and rainbows everywhere but it changes. I’ve been married to the same person for 31 years and the “state” is in a constant state of flux. So feelings can be awesome and they can be miserable … an acid trip can be profound or a descent in to hell.
I guess I expect to be more grounded, more stable, lighter but that is speculation.
Whatever is just is.

Yesterday I didn’t feel physically well in the afternoon … nothing particular but there were aches and I felt physically old but I saw a movie last night which was a deep and moving thing. Afterwards the aches were still there but my state was altered.

Sometimes it is like four seasons in a day but I don’t expect to see auras or have prescience or anything like that … the world I think is gonna be the same as it always has been.

And I don’t expect my forehead to open and an orgasm of light to emanate and walk around with a shit eating grin on my face all day. I’m not expecting to levitate or pick the winning lotto numbers in a dream or master white magic.

There will be moments perhaps but not a constant stream of some feeling or vibe.

And the “aha” moment? No jumping out of the bath like Archimedes yelling “eureka”.

I expect a knowing that I’ve passed to the other side of this gateless gate but it may be more subtle than a sledgehammer …

This morning I awoke at 3 and couldn’t sleep so on Youtube I found a binaural beat (something new for me) and closed my eyes … at some stage I entered this in between state where there were lights syncopating to the beats … it was beautiful and so gossamer thin … as soon as I got excited it went … just like what happens in lucid dreaming when you realise you are awake inside the dream.

But this altered state has nothing to do with self / no self … it just is.

Maybe I will end up in a state of emptiness … I’ve heard that talked about but have no idea really what it means.

Ilona I have few pre-conceived ideas about what now apart from consciousness being a mystery … maybe more wonder than before and less fear.

That is a definite hope that by degrees the overarching fear of nothing / everything that has dominated my life will become ancient history.

There are also desires that so my reply is likely to blush out from the borders of expectation to some of what is hoped for.

My gratitude and love to you for your being on this journey with me

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:17 pm

Thank you very much for detailed reply. Outing thoughts down in writing is very helpful, as you can see what is really going on with understanding.
Yes, more relaxation, less drama is a natural outcome, but before one can really relax, all the crap that has been stored has to be cleared. It can be very intense and unpleasant, dependent on how deeply surrendering goes. I mean, the more there is allowing for the moment to be as it is, the smother the ride. Resisting is pointless, but allowing resisting too has to happen first for it to dissolve.

Altered states are great, but it's not about that. It's not about better states. It's about knowing that in every state, there is truth of being underneath all states.

I can see that you are in the process so just keep looking, where is the separate self right here right now? Is there i as a being, outside life happening? Is there a doer, a thinker, a feeler? And by very act of looking seeing happens.

Sending love
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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:13 pm

Altered states are great, but it's not about that. It's not about better states. It's about knowing that in every state, there is truth of being underneath all states.
Yes, truth is independent of state ... thoughts or feelings do not alter the undeniable truth.
The truth I observe is that life is a simultaneous, undivided and continuous process of creation and annihilation without a "me" doing anything as prime mover.
but before one can really relax, all the crap that has been stored has to be cleared. It can be very intense and unpleasant, dependent on how deeply surrendering goes. I mean, the more there is allowing for the moment to be as it is, the smother the ride. Resisting is pointless, but allowing resisting too has to happen first for it to dissolve.
“Resistance is futile earthling!” How true yet as you say that resisting is a part of the process, part of that dance of change.
Yesterday driving home through city traffic there were the usual incidents of discourtesy … sometimes I feel annoyance rising in my gorge as if it was a personal slight from that driver at me … a disregard, disrespect of “me”. Not yesterday though … I laughed as there was nobody being disrespected and there was nobody disrespecting. The drive flowed in a bubble of peace and with an underlying joy. I was happy …

A massive storm system is bearing down on our country today and winds are going to be high gusting to 90 mph (150 kmh) and expected rain of up to 10 inches of rain (300mm) forecast. My internal landscape this morning reflects that storminess.
There is a tangled skein of feelings of irritation. Vulnerability. Brittleness. Uncertainty.
Frustration at the change from how I was feeling yesterday. Then I felt behind that the resistance you talk of and let go trying to control anything because regarless of feelings, state … whatever … the underlying truth is still there. So the intensity of those feelings subsided … there is still a background hum of some of it but I’m OK with that because everything shifts and changes constantly.
There is no me … there is only this moment full of sensation, thought and action.
I can see that you are in the process so just keep looking, where is the separate self right here right now? Is there i as a being, outside life happening? Is there a doer, a thinker, a feeler? And by very act of looking seeing happens.
I will keep looking.

There is nobody here, no “me”, nothing separate to be identified. When I was younger I would fantasise about a world where there was only me and nobody else … I could do what I wanted and go where I wanted without feeling self conscious or edited. It feels like I am somewhere on the border of this borderless land called Nome.

I don’t understand the processes involved in life ... if there is no self is there only sensory input and thought and response to thought?

The mystery dance of aliveness that I starting to see contradicts all the foundations I’ve believed in life up to now of a little driver … so a sensory input comes so how does a thought come from that?
What are the mechanics of it all? Are there some situations where the response is linked to the input and others where the thought has no ostensible link to the thought in real terms but the thought was just a trigger.

Similarly how does the response to thought occur? I’ve looked at my hand and moved it around … there is a thought about it but I don’t even know if the thought precedes the act, is contemporaneous with the act or a microsecond after the act in response to the act.

There is ambulation, thought, laughter, arousal and a billion things that occur in the course of a lifetime and many are repeated ad nauseum day after day.

There may be no “I” that causes the act but the chain link of sensory input, thought and act response is still a mystery.

And is some form of sensory input always what precedes thought? I think (hah ha) not as often sitting a left field “Hail Mary full of grace” thought will spontaneously arise which may or may not lead to an act.

What of emotion? Emotion arises from thought be it spontaneous or triggered by seeing a puppy or whatever … bittersweet, tears, laughter, heartrate and pulse … a plethora of physical responses … what is the nature of that emotional outpouring? So there is a body with physical senses, thoughts that come and go, emotions that do the same (are they a specialized hybrid psychosynthesis of thought and sensory responses …

So I will keep looking, listening etc … I can’t do anything other … if I close my eyes sight doesn’t stop … if I block my ears hearing is not ended.

What an adventure …

Happy Easter

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:43 pm

I don’t understand the processes involved in life ... if there is no self is there only sensory input and thought and response to thought?
Let's have a closer look here
Lift your left arm above the head before reading further.

.....

Did it happen? How did it happen? Was there a decision made? Was there a decision maker involved?
For a day remember this exercise repeat and observe how it happens.
What comes first: an impulse, action or thought about it?

When there is feeling of hunger, is it thought that decides or thought informs about the process?
When body walks from a to b, is it thought that makes it walk or body moves by itself, knowing what to do?

Play with this and write what you notice
Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
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ug0ng61
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:43 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:47 am


Let's have a closer look here
Lift your left arm above the head before reading further.

Did it happen? How did it happen? Was there a decision made? Was there a decision maker involved?
For a day remember this exercise repeat and observe how it happens.
What comes first: an impulse, action or thought about it?
Monumental fail … due to a lack of attentive reading lifted my right arm. But the principle's the same: "Lift your arm was asked and the arm was lifted". I cannot detect a decision being made and no decision maker. How the mind / brain controls the movement is interesting as this wasn't like spasm or tic and clearly some signal was involved in the arm raising. This is repeated a dozen times playfully with variety …. one where there is ?
"jazz hand", another rippling fingers, another a fist, another a flamenco flourish, one a cobra flat hand vertical unrolling. Most variations seem to contain traces of knowing what was happening but there was no Ikea follow the steps in order to achieve. What is happening if I don't do what's requested? the arm stays put and a featherlight thought. If there is decision making as such I don't see it so is it just thought that drives the response? How does that work? I may have a sore arm by the end of the day.

If my mind thinks (Herman Munster voice) "Lift hand" there is clearly thought first then action. Someone asks for a cuppa tea and clearly some mind at work as automatic response of "Let's do that after this job" or "Would you like an Easter bunny or hot cross bun with that?" or a reply "What about a spicy chai?" Clearly there is some creative interplay of mind and body going on sometimes here as responses aren't always single and simplest. If I'm asked to do the dishes there I might automatically rattle of a list of reasons excuses for declining "'I'm already late", "machine not full enough, "we're out of powder". As I type this response my position and posture change for comfort and fingers type no trace of a project operating to decide, plan, strategise before the responses.

I hear the chickens making their morning complaint about the delay in the mash going out … thought comes that it's only 8 on Good Friday so I will quieten them. I dress, walk, feed the chooks, chat with them and check for eggs … it all just happens. No complex plans for a mission drawn up and complex preparations … it just happens. What is the interplay between thought and action. All my life I accepted that Major Tom didn't need ground control … Major Tom, the "I" was doing it all and making it happen … logically if there was no doer how could doing occur?
Wandering, looking, thinking … "More chook food, more straw and some sawdust to get". A friend texts inviting me out to her place, I text my bipolar friend asking is she needs a night out ("Yes!!!"), check OK with inviter so now we have a gathering to look forward to. There is thought ("I'll take A along", "Better tell B, hope she's OK about it") and action in texting confirmation and collaboration on who takes what and when. You can almost infer a does in some of it but there is no tangible evidence, no detecting any ground control telling Major Tome to feed the birds.

I really see a lot of this as mystery … when someone asks me a technical question (I draft legal documents for an insurance company) a whole lot of stuff happens … I ask for further particulars, clarify facts and context by a process of words carefully chosen to ensure accuracy and close listening to decide if more questions are required until the question is understood. There is brain work where the aggregate information is now arranged automatically into a working framework and knowledge, experience and reference to technical resources … maybe sound a peer out on grey areas … it may be an oral reply that I give but there is no 2 hour plan or script for the response … I just start to talk and I have always been amazed at that stream of consciousness, almost automatic verbal response where the complex ideas and interpretation and resolution work together like a clock and on the fly tweaks. It should be a torture of editing and structuring and so on but it just happens …. when I think of all that is involved it is a wonder. I'm not aware of the guy in a control room conducting proceedings … it just flows. How? I am truly buggered if I can explain it … it just happens. I've an inquisitive bent so I'd like to know how life happens, the real processes at work but I don't have to know but it would be nice so I have something more than a shrug of my shoulders for someone who asks me.
When there is feeling of hunger, is it thought that decides or thought informs about the process?
When body walks from a to b, is it thought that makes it walk or body moves by itself, knowing what to do?


Hunger is seemingly impulsive …. the body might be weak, the mind might be fuzzy and so breakfast is made. Another time I might see chocolate and decide to buy from the shop - it isn't hunger (not going to perish without a bar of Rocky Road) or a simple whiff of something in the street might turn on a light and you say "Yeah let's get some crispy fries", or you might be watching a cooking show or remembering that killer massaman curry you had in Chiang Mai five years ago …. so the trigger might be anything that stimulates …. it doesn't seem to be thought …

I don't know the place of thought in all of this as life seems largely spontaneous in the minutiae of doing even if working from a list of intent … feed chooks, put the washing on, go to supermarket, swing by chemist, buy lottery ticket, liquor store, visit café and have a read of kindle then go home … but that is just the list that pops into being somehow out of mind. And then it all happens … this crazy moment by moment life being is simultaneously created and annihilated and my awareness in the centre of this "now"

The body seems to move itself and underlying there sometimes seems a subtle intent that gets the ball rolling but other times I will just spring out of my chair and march to my room and know what I'm doing until I am doing it.

I use the word "I" here not in reference to an entity but as a tool to communicate things happening.

The storm passed, I dried off the chickens, the day is still and bright … Autumn can be incredible … the mystery dance continues.

I feel the Easter story resonate …. here I was dead in a cave all this time and now the stone / gate opens … who is walking out?


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